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Brands challenging a stall call.

Session 5 was changed to this format last year. We did it this way last week in Providence for D3 as well. Didn’t have anything to do with 47.

Based on my posting history, I don't think that it's a big mystery that I am an outlier (but not alone) on this board as a committed left-wing woke menace, but imo Trump's appearance last night ruined the Saturday afternoon session. I say this knowing that the Finals crowd collectively loved his appearance as did many (most? almost all? probably) of the wrestlers. THAT SAID... The medal rounds on Saturday morning are one of my favorite sessions. It isn't the pageantry of the finals or the tension of the blood round or the pandemonium of the opening round, but it is overachievers trying to climb further up the ladder. It's top-seeded wrestlers trying to finish a wrecked season on a high. It's shocking matchups like Kasak-Shapiro. It's a blast. I haven't seen this written about elsewhere,^ but the planning for his arrival at night security for the morning session was serious. You had to walk past a dog who was much more likely to be sniffing for weapons than drugs held by a guy in tactical gear. There was secret service everywhere, also in tactical gear.^^ That wasn't really the issue, though. The issue was that they changed how they run the early session. Instead of having three mats, they had four. Instead of running the Consolation semis as a first-mat-open, then having 3/5/7 go weight-by-weight on three mats, they had the entire session run on four mats in a first-mat-open format as if we were in Fargo. As a Cornell guy, I had three wrestlers in the consolation semis (packed from 157-184) then those same three guys all wrestling for fifth (don't want to talk about it...) and they were repeatedly overlapping with each other. I'm sure it was worse for the Penn State fans, who covered half the bill for third place. Nobody seems to have talked about it online, but this was obviously a request/demand made by the Secret Service to the NCAA and ESPN. They wanted to run through the afternoon session as quickly as possible, clear the arena, then sweep it tip to tail before the President arrived in case anything got past security in the morning session. I understand why they would do it, so i don't begrudge the security priority if Trump is going to come, but all things being the same, I'd rather have the guy invite the winners to the White House and watch from home so we can have a traditional Session 5. ^ I didn't look very hard... ^^ I assume all of this was even more pronounced for the evening session when he was present. It was certainly the case at the MMA event at MSG Trump went to with Musk and his cabinet-in-waiting.

honestly no idea what you're talking about. I thought in the closing seconds of the match he was trying to get a turn for a major. Lovett grabbed his fingers, Shapiro got a little aggressive with the armbar, Lovett pushed him in the face as time expired, Shapiro explained himself to the corner, Lovett came at him, pissed off, but he and Shapiro talked it out, shook hands and moved on. Flash of emotion by both guys, mature reconciliation by both guys. I thought he was implying that they kept testing his kid so none of the full-time starters were at risk. I don't think Shapiro was accusing Kasak, though I do think he was generally implying that some people/programs are cutting with the help of steroids. Also implying that he'd need the boost to go 165 or to go down to 149 without sapping his own strength. He prefers to wrestle without the deep cut that is standard in wrestling, which is good for his long term health. Better for his long term health than repeatedly landing on his head, at least.

It’s no secret on the NWT section I’m no fan of the current president. Last night was one of the most significant moments in wrestling, ever, in this country. The ‘bookends’ turned out to work phenomenal. No one can doubt he was there to be part of the dog and pony show of one last horrah for Steveson, and it brought serious eyeballs to the sport. The fact that an Air Force Lieutenant pulls off the biggest upset ever in the NCAA, and then salutes the President of the United States, followed with a hug with the flag around his shoulders. It’s a huge moment. Absolutely huge moment for wrestling. Wrestling is a blue collar, grit and hard work, you get what you earn not a damn thing is handed to you, lifestyle. No one votes for you for all-American, you go get it. Of course it’s a conservative leaning base. But everyone can respect what was on display last night. From the 184 all the way through. A work buddy texted me right after one of the less than exciting one takedown matches. He never watches wrestling doesn’t know anything about it other than asking me how my peeps are doing. He texted “holy *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* these guys are in world class condition”. There were those kinds of eyeballs all over the country.

Oh...please, lets not go down this road. I don't love the last person you mentioned, but I've seen no correlation between the prior. I have not noticed a 'set' of opinions with Burroughs, Starocci, Stevenson, DC and Rock. I like some, others less. Please just hide this or keep it to the other sub. There are people who think Starocci is a boring Wrestler and they ALL hate Ferrari. There are some who think JB is obnoxious and are big Starocci fans. You're just finding black athletes who people have critiqued, doing the Trump/internet thing where you infer it's the SAME people who don't like Burroughs becuse he said he'd go after Starocci's knee(which is because they are PSU fans who love Starocci). The takes are FAR more nuanced than this, this was an awesome night of Wrestling. Lets...end the Trump stuff here, killed the racist stuff or at least move it to off-topic.

pyles is about to post an 18 minute video where he explains that he was surprised.

Most dominant wrestler by far in the NCAA. Also undefeated. Also just had the most impressive win maybe of all time. Beat TWO champions on his way to winning it. Beat an unbeatable Olympic Gold medalist. The stuff of legends

In addition to the two records that we already know about - 177 points, 10 AA's (tied with 2001 Minnesota), I think PSU set, or tied, at least two other records this week. 3.1 - highest average finish (tied with 1991 Iowa - if you are charitable and assume their blood round loser finished 9th) 48 - most matches won in a single tournament (previous best was 46 by 1992 Iowa) @cowcards check me on that last one, please

The 2025 NCAA tournament has concluded. As we now look forward to a new season, I cant help but think we are still plagued by the same issues year after year. 1. Stalling - As usual, edge wrestling and lack of stalling constitute the worst part of our sport. I'm not saying the refs should've handed Byrd his victory earlier, but I would have understood it. 2. Rideouts - Can we do away with OT riding time rideouts? Isn't everyone dissatisfied by winning in this fashion? For too many years now I have seen lesser wrestlers employ the "Escape only try to win in ride outs with no offense attempted" to steal matches. It only leads to more snoozefests. Maybe change the rule so if you don't score an offensive point you can't win in OT based on rideouts? Then head back to neutral. Hell, I'd prefer only neutral 2 minute rounds until a takedown settles the match. 3. Lung Bricks/Challenges - There desperately needs to be a penalization for these fake challenges. It's crossed the threshold of acceptability now. Coaches are strategizing key moments to give their guys a rest with these BS bricks. Get them out. Anyways, here's some thoughts I had on the tourney. 125 - Gross final. The guy I wanted to win won, but that was ultimately one of the most forgettable finals I've ever seen. Did The Right Guy win the Weight - No, I thought Lilledahl was the best of the field. Random Thoughts - Has 125 gotten markedly worse recently or is it just me? Perhaps it's time to modify the classes. 133 - Thought both finalists were considerably better than the field. Honestly, was shocked that Byrd had such a better gameplan than Ayala, but that's par for the course with Iowa in recent years. Ayala was over-reliant on his bread and butter and Byrd totally neutralized it. Ayala should've definitely be dinged earlier too. Did The Right Guy win the Weight - Yes, he was the aggressor the entire time. Random Thoughts - Nasir Bailey will be dangerous once he gets that hands transplant. 141 - Great match, Mendez is just really really good at wrestling. No real weaknesses, and he can turn it on like Jaggers before him. Hardy clearly jumped a level this year too, he was a pleasure to watch. Wish I could say the same about Bartlett, but he just never opened it up. Did The Right Guy win the Weight - Yes Random Thoughts - Bartlett kind of looks like Bruno Mars with the stache. 149 - Awful match, horribly officiated where the wrong guy won. Not sure how you overturn that TD. An unconvincing 1-0 win for a championship where you definitely taken down. Not my favorite celebration of the night either. Did the Right Guy Win the Weight - No, Henson was better and got robbed. 157 - It's better to be lucky than good right? Feels like that sums up Taylors tournament. Not saying he isn't an elite wrestler, but things broke for him in an amazing way, and then he was allowed to LITERALLY run away for just about a minute. Blaze didn't get the TD sure, but he couldn't catch Taylor either. I don't think we ever see him place close to this high again. Did the Right Guy Win the Weight - Nah, Kasak was the best here. Credit to Blaze for taking him out with savvy edgewrestling and a little luck. 165 - No real comments here, Caliendo's vision quest came up just short. Credit to him for getting close to the MM pace and still being able to fight back. They've both separated themselves from the field by quite a bit. Did the Right Guy Win the Weight - Yes. 174 - All I could think about after watching Hamiti dispatch Haines and O'toole was how different his career would've been at a better program. DT fully maximized this due and he looks amazing now, he was at the wrong weight and not utilizing his skills fully until now. Did the Right Guy Win the Weight - Oh yeah, beating 2 elite champs and looking better than both is no small feat. 184 - The Keck-Mec Semi was one of the best bouts I have ever seen in my life. An absolute war with no one backing down or ceding ground. Truly an awesome match, best of the tourney by far in my eyes. And Starocci is just that much better, which is wild. Did the Right Guy Win the Weight - Yes, say what you want about the persona, but he is excellence personified on the mat. 197 - I have no idea how Barr did what he did, extremely impressive. Between him and AJ it kind of highlighted how unskilled this weight was this year. Did the Right Guy Win the Weight - Yes absolutely. AJ Ferrari - So, I think AJ Ferrari might actually be a genius. Hear me out...the ironically named MrFastTwich (who appears to have no real fast twitch movements) is made out of freaking steel cables. It was incredibly apparent all tournament long how much stronger he was than everyone. His entire strategy revolves around grinding people into the ground, knowing he can escape and hold you down. Takedowns don't matter, skill doesn't matter. You can't move the damn guy and you can't move once he's on top of you. Piss poor scouting with everyone taking bottom against him as well. I was SHOCKED to hear the pop for the splits after the medal round. 285 - Gotta tell you, I felt this happening in my plums. Not the way it did, I thought Gable was going to foolishly take down after being winded, and wind up getting stuck in a pinfalldrickson. What actually happened was more surprising. He got outwrestled! What a phenomenal gameplan they had in place. Did the Right Guy Win the Weight - Absolutely, you can't disrespect the sport and generate positive juju, came back to get Gable big time.

DOGE outsourced this to the Intermat message boards. We're just doing our patriotic duty.

Brock Hardy's taking on all the side-effects without getting any the benefits.

I think people should strive to be better than holding that level of conversation. I believe in presumption of innocence, and we have nothing but pseudo-dermatology assessments from wrestling fans who have zero knowledge of any wrestlers medical information. If it turns out it wasn't true, will we find all of the same people coming back to publicly apologize? Of course not. And coming from another wrestler (instead of a fan) it comes off as a sore loser excuse.

Eh, security was not an issue … yes took a bit longer to get in but glad they are being careful. For me, not worth a moment of complaining. Yes, some overlap. But not a big deal for me. Small price to pay to have POTUS attend the championships. A pretty damn big deal for ‘our’ sport. Great recognition. High honor. Note, I’m referring to the role of POTUS. Not the actual person in the role now.

The irony of someone quote responding to themselves while sitting in a chat room apparently for long hours...

To me it had to be Mesenbrink losing his mouth guard on the mat, then picking it up and putting it back in his mouth. Without missing a beat! You could hear the crowd groan.

What about Byrd and his girlfriend?

What did he do this year that was so bad? The last video I saw of him last night was him cheering on Hendrickson and patting him on the back at the podium. Seemed like a good display of sportsmanship actually. To me it seemed lies like gable was a villain last night and more so people were excited for the underdog. Which happens often. I doubt he will be forgotten and hope he wrestles for team USA again. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think it was significant and a positive for the sport that Trump attended the finals. I also think that PSU's record points total was overshadowed by a number of things, and that is healthy for the sport. Nebraska fans have to be ecstatic about their overall outperformance, securing second, getting three to the finals, and winning twice. Oklahoma State fans also have to be ecstatic about an upswing to third, three in the finals, two winners, and one of the two most epic upsets in NCAA wrestling history. Iowa fans may be slightly disappointed with fourth place, but three in the finals (extending their decades long streak), with one champ who did it by beating a PSU wrestler is reason for celebration. NC State gets a champ with two more years of eligibility. Illinois wins a title in the year of @ILLINIWrestlingBlog

Everyone here as much *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* that is talked, thank you! Coming from a Nebraska fan, this sport has grown more in the last couple years, more than I've seen in the last 20. From girls wrestling(which is absolutely huge here), to this ncaa tournament that was full of ALL Americans watching! It starts here but tell friends and family!! Wrestling is here to stay!!!

Dude go back to reddit. This is a forum for wrestling. @Husker_Du can you zap this thread pleeeease, for all of us.

We can say all we want. I rooted for captain america super hard. It was very cool of Steveson to actively encourage the crowd to cheer for hendrickson while they were on the awards stand. That is something his namesake is incapable of to this day. Imperfect, heel, what have you, he showed class and grace towards hendrickson in that moment, which was a big thing to do.

not my problem! i'm a cornell guy suggesting that shapiro wasn't whining about his specific loss or casting specific aspersions. i think the kasak accusers and the kasak defenders had pre-existing beliefs that they are happy to have a reason to air out.

Hate to spoil the witch hunt but I recall several wrestlers (Kyle Dake was one) specifically ending post match interviews because they had to go take a drug test. So the idea that the NCAA doesn’t do any testing is absolutely false.

For all you PSU people crying foul about how low it was of Shapiro and he's a hater, your boy Bo Nickal went on the biggest podcast in the world (JRE) and said the reason he lost to the Iranian is cuz the guy was juiced to the gills. Said it was obvious. What evidence did he have other than he felt his strength and looked at him? Same thing here. And it's obvious our wrestlers are using too, if we can go head to head with nations that are obviously doping like Russia. To believe our guys can compete with roid raging Russians just cuz we like our steaks is naive and asinine. Lemme get some of Mr Kasak's home grown beef, doubt it drastically changes my hormone profiles like it did for Kasak and Barr.

Just because he has been through a world of crap doesn't mean he can say whatever baseless things he wants to and get a free pass. I also took it as sour grapes and sore losing.

my sister in law is a dermatologist and a damn good one. she mentioned a million and one reasons that someone can have an acne spike up. to automatically assume steroids is to be mean-spirited and intentionally disparaging. there simply isn't enough evidence

He was elected by the majority to represent the people. Are you saying he shouldn't be at public events with the people?

Remember when Cassar had that 2nd puberty just in time to go HWY!

The Jumbo Jet

Obviously the stories of the night are the 5x champ and the commissioned officer with the biggest upset in half a century in front of the Commander in Chief. But in terms of overall historical significance in the big picture, David Taylor's first season might end up having the biggest impact on the sport. He came in to a train wreck and brought them up to a solid third. He took a guy who was 6-6-blood round and beat two champs to take first place. He took another guy who hadn't been in the finals who also beat two champs to take first, in that gigantic upset. It's just one year and they are only in third place now, but it's definitely possible to picture OSU under Taylor being the next great power at a level competing with Penn State (which I don't see Nebraska or the current regime at Iowa doing).

I was thinking this too. I remembered last year the cadence was different. It’s purely a preference thing- but I really, really dislike it for what it’s worth. I personally think every weight should wrestle 3/4, 5/6, and 7/8 simultaneously. And the weights should go 1 by 1. I’m preaching to the choir here, but even taking 3rd and being an all American is a once in a lifetime crowning achievement. It should be treated as such. It does feel cheap and watered down when you have heavyweights wrestling for 7/8 beside 133s wrestling for 5/6 and so on. At one point in the medal matches the 125s went flying off the mat and Shane/Trent made a joke the refs better grab them before they get run over by a heavyweight. Just doesn’t seem right to me. Edit to add: solely talking about D1. I know D2&D3 logistics are completely different.

Officer Farva

The President being there, staying fully engaged for three hours, and tweeting about it was an overwhelimingly positive thing for the sport.

watching tonight, I couldn’t have been more proud of our sport and the smart, insightful young adults doing interviews seconds off the mat in the biggest moments of their lives! One thing that came up multiple times was the process. There is lots to look at here as past, current and future coaches of kids. It isn’t about winning, it is about working hard and getting it right. The outcome is the secondary consideration. Getting the right mindset and work ethic will bring the results not vice versa. Every result tonight was the result of the lifestyle and effort, not the goal. Everyone wants to win, the difference is what you put in.

Disagree with this viewpoint. You can't tell me the the top guy isn't stalling when he throws in double boots and flattens out the bottom guy. Bottom guy always gets called, but what is he to do if incapacitated? When the top guy does that & stays parallel, he is most certainly stalling.

Evil Villain standing on the mat. Here come the Great American Hero wrapped in an American flag. Evil Villain doesn't make way for the American flag draped underdog. Crowd boo's. Tension builds. Greatest American Hero upsets evil champion. Camera pans to President and then to Hero and then to an All American family in tears over the All American goodness that this represents. Hero salutes President. President hugs American flag draped hero who just defeated evil and then the President whispers in his ear, "Thank you, 'Old Shoe'." Wag the Dog

The time it took this forum to transition from the end of the season to a political diatribe could be measured with an egg timer. If I am not mistaken, the only times that ESPN showed the President was when he walked in, and when Hendrickson saluted him. Your entire focus of this thread is on those two five-second clips.....out of the 2+ hours of action?!?! Really?? Heck, you spent more time making this post than ESPN spent showing him.

Funny, I was just looking at this. I have not put this year's complete results into the db yet, so there is a little hand work here. I will fix that. PSU had an average seed of 2.6. I do not know for sure (I will be checking), but I believe this is unprecedented. In spite of that insanely high starting point, the end point only missed by 0.5. They finished with an average position of 3.1. That they missed by only a half a spot is pretty bonkers. Below are the Cael years up until now. So, in spite of having a nearly impossible number to beat, they still did better relative to seed than in 2022, 2019, 2017, and 2013. And they did this with 10 wrestlers. It is always easier when there are few opportunities for failure, especially where outperformance is not possible (#1 seeds). And here is the thing about 2024. Starocci was the #9 seed for purely administrative reasons. If he is not forced to medically forfeit by his coach, he is likely the #1 seed. That would have brought PSU's average seed down to 3.2. In that scenario, PSU also misses by 0.5 in a year when they also break the point scoring record. The idea of underperformance and overperformance is not an absolute. I know in the hot take era this is not a popular view. Stephen A Smith is getting paid an insane amount for a reason. But if you are the #33 seeded wrestler there is no such thing as underperformance. And if you are the #1 seeded wrestler there is no such thing as overperformance. A sliding scale, or at least the acknowledgement of the one-sided distribution, must be employed. Also, keep in mind that this is still way better than the field. Based on averages generated from all teams (including PSU's own performance) PSU was expected to score 156 points and have 8.6 AAs. They beat both those numbers. The only place they missed was that they had 2.7 expected champions. And they were only a TD away from beating that.

Big upset, to be certain. However, I'd put Ramos' pin over Lee as a bigger upset, especially since Lee was going for his 4th title. I thought (along with several people I was with tonight) that Hendrickson had a legitimate chance, although it'd take a perfect match. He looked great against Kerk last night and carried it over to tonight.

Forget politics. A freaking president at the ncaa finals can only be good for wrestling. politics will ruin that. But that is what it is.

Yeah agree that is wrong even though I don't think it's the biggest ever. I probably would put Gable Dan's loss below Dan Gable's loss as number two in terms of surprising. Hendrickson is a very bad man with a very nasty record, a more fearsome opponent than Owings. And he's huge. But it's still stunning. Made me think of a few other matches. Reminded me a little of Snyder and Gwiz. As the match went on, you could see that he was figuring out how to deal with the other guy's advantages, and he was close enough that if he could hit the big takedown and do it late enough for the rideout that he had a chance (Snyder's rideout got him to OT, not the win, but that's all he needed because Gwiz was gassed). Also made me think of Gable and Cassar. Shorten the match, get it to the end, Gable might have a brain cramp, which is a little bit what happened tonight, I thought, it looked to me like Gable could have gotten out of the attack if he went pure defense, but thought about trying to turn it into his own takedown which he didn't need, and that split second let Hendrickson pull him in far enough to be able to eventually get control. Not perfect analogies but I think relevant.

125 Lilledahl 133 Ono 141 Blaze 149 SVN 157 Kasak 165 MM 174 Haines 184 Barr 197 Ferrari HWT ???

Please Hamiti, don't hurt 'em

I will go on record stating that I am good with either Henderson or Starocci---as I think most all wrestling people would be. Either selection has merit and that is not to disrespect the accomplishments of the one who would not awarded the honor.

I think you're underthinking it. Do all of the army, airforce, navy wrestlers bring flags out when they wrestle? It made for a good storyline and hyped the match up, that's why it was done.

I said "the stories of the night." A commissioned officer in the Air Force coming out with the flag and winning the biggest upset in half a century and saluting the president is a great story. That doesn't mean Trump hit a slick slide by or that anyone has to like him or his politics, or even Hendrickson and the flag. But it certainly by definition is a big story, whether the beholder likes the story or not.

lol they weren’t a train wreck, but I agree that this performance is really going to launch his coaching career and make guys want to go there even more than they did already.

imagine is you've never watched the finals before, how confused you'd be when the Olympic Champ/WWE Legend/NFL Pro Bowler etc gets hyped up all night and then gasses in the first and loses....

A PSU fan pitchin’ a fit over Jordan Burroughs is like a mama throwin’ a hissy ‘cause her little Mitchell Mesenbrink went and poked the ol’ grizzly at them Trials and got hisself shoved back... cryin’ and huggin’ her fancy necklace over a dang skinned knee... then hollerin’ louder’n a stuck hog when JB said he’d go after Carter Starocci’s bum leg like it’s an all-you-can-eat buffet night down at Joy Wok. Meanwhile, Burroughs is up yonder in the booth, slingin’ truth bombs like an all-I-see-is-GOLD big dog, while these fans are squallin’ like the tractor just pancaked their best sow. Reckon these Fantasy Land North Eastern PSU yahoos figure they can play lady mother hens, cluckin’ over a broke feather. Grow up, ya sissified Happy Valley City Slickers wannabee Hayseeds!