Leaderboard

I'm a pretty open book, I have no reason to play subtle games ona wrestling forum. I don't like Penn State, I don't root for them, but it would be awfully high and mighty for me to claim they were doing something sinister while my preferred team is flirting with AJ Ferrari.

Oh yes, those were the days. What did we do before the internet? Got together at the local watering holes and told "lies" and "exaggerated" stories about the "good ole days" and the legendary wrestlers and coaches of our times. Annual Missouri coaches clinic, and of course, state meet weekend, were homecoming for the diehards of faithful fans as we witnessed the year to year improvement of the quality of wrestling athletes in the Show Me state. I'm very proud of what I see today, and I still look forward to telling stories, reliving the past, with eyes forward to the future. I've even told some "Mr. Fudge Tunnel" stories over the years, so you know I've been around a day or two.

I was part of a contingent of about 25 people that reserved a couple tables to watch semis at a bar…. I know there were many others. Many a HS/Club programs do big watch parties.

Jesus trained Marinelli too but he must’ve been spending more time with the PSU guys

your statements seem a bit contradictory. are you saying psu does the best job at assessing and recruiting the right guys or are you saying that they just buy them? even prior to the portal+NIL era, the narrative was (largely from the iowa fan base) that psu won because they got the best recruits. and, to me, i frankly don't care. you'd have a difficult time convincing me that any other staff would have had their batting average with those same recruits. and you'd have zero chance convincing me that anyone else would have matched their level of dominance - which has been historic - with those same guys.

He's claiming that there were periods of time where other teams and coaches had comparable dominance. The era OSU won the bulk of their titles was a period where wrestling was less competitive than the today making dominance far easier to achieve. It is true that Gable had a dominant run in the 80s. But in that era, athlete development played a more important role than today. You couldn't simply "buy" (recruit, whatever) wrestlers. They were not college-ready like they are today. And Tom Ryan aside, transferring was also obviously less prevalent. It is clear that the assessment and recruitment of elite talent is the key to success today in a way that is fundamentally different than previous eras. This is what Cael and Co. excel at like no one else in NCAA wrestling.

I love it when the subtext to these debates is "yeah, but my team did it with virtue". So silly.

To those talking about how close MM and O'Toole are: They are what... five years apart? MM has just gotten as large as him this last season. I doubt they have much, if any, mat time together. Also to those think MM competes with O'Toole? Laughable shit. Seriously

The motto of the United States Marine Corps is "Semper Fidelis", which is Always Faithful in Latin. Unit, Corps, God, Country is more folklore than saying. Regardless, it is not the motto.

Damn! Just catching with the last season on Netflix, and saw "Coach Nathanimal" answer the security office door. Going off of his technique videos on YouTube, he seems like a natural for on screen work.

The problem with that is Ben is not operating with full, complete knowledge of a situation. Not saying that I am/was, but people say things on the PSU board that occasionally fill in the voids. As an example, Askren would publicly wonder why SVN had no “good” wins going into the post season. His losses to that point were Murin (3x), Johnson and Sasso. He’d regularly say, “I’m surprised he hasn’t developed more.” What Ben didn’t know was that SVN’s redshirt year didn’t have much wrestling. Kind of hard to develop when you aren’t in the room. Then, SVN took 3rd, beating Johnson, Henson and Parco. Played catchup all year and put it together (coaching helps here) at NCAAs. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t know how I stayed employed and/or married from ‘03 thru around ‘11/‘12. If we had smart phones then, I’m pretty sure I would have been both divorced and unemployed. The non-wrestling forum on Themat.com forums didn’t help either. Thankfully we were young, and excessive alcohol consumption that was forced on me by the likes of Jonathan, Pollock, Swain, etc wasn’t so consequential

Do I think PSU is offering Truax $250 K? No way. I would have to see the bank statement with my own eyes for me to believe that is happening anywhere. This would be toxic to team culture. Here is what I think happens: established guys are taken off scholarship and given money from boosters to cover the difference, maybe a little more. This gives the coaches the dry powder necessary to give substantial scholarships to blue-chippers every year. If this is legal, it would be foolish not to do it. This is what I assumed happened with NLWC money before, without proof. Cael is a thoroughbred and relates to other elite athletes. I think his system, whatever it is, exactly, caters to this type of wrestler. For whatever reason, this system is not set up to coach up non-elite athletes. PSU has had plenty of holes in their lineup but it doesn't matter since the difference between a horrible wrestler and merely good is irrelevant in terms of NCAA points. It matters greatly in duals and is probably the reason Cael is vehemently opposed to changing the championship format. No doubt Cael is shrewd and uses every tool at his disposal to identify the right athletes. I suspect that is why he's your homeboy--what person has their finger on the pulse of high school recruits better than you? Who else on this planet knows which top recruits have overbearing fathers and will likely phone it in once away from home? Or were caught out past curfew at Cadet Worlds with some local babe from Tinder? These intangibles are essential to know who to pick. If I were Tom Brands, I would be kissing your ass too but I suspect he's too old school. Recruitment trumps development and Cael gets this better than anyone. I think TNT are still stuck in a bygone era thinking they can turn pack mules into champions. I am not even sure Gable could do that today. At this point, PSU is experiencing a virtuous cycle. Success begets recruits which begets success which comes back to the original point of the thread. The only thing stopping PSU from having 8+ champs a year is the fact that elite wrestlers want to compete. If the NCAA allowed multiple entries, PSU's B-team would be the second-best team in the country.

Hang on. How can Cael Sanderson destroy what was already destroyed by Dan Gable and multiple Oklahoma State coaches before him?

Some interesting takes there. Van Hess beat Henson pretty easily at NCAAs. Not sure why you’d pick him over SVN, as we’ve seen that match and SVN had the only two TDs of that match. Gap expands with more mat time for SVN. Starts ~11:30 in. Also, I’m taking Haines over Sasso all day, every day. Particularly with another year at PSU under his belt. Messenbrink is going to be great, but beating KOT??? That’s crazy, until we see him dismantling top 5-8 guys. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did some announcing in Wichita this year and Jason Bryant and myself did some reminiscing about the old Missouriwrestling.com days. We definitely had some fun on that site.

What do you think he's been doing his entire life? It isn't working and you want him to double down. The worst thing for him is to go into another situation where his talent protects him from reality and people kiss his ass. He's not finding Jesus in Iowa.

Going to a dual at CHA is unlike any other wrestling g environment I’ve ever been in.

Gotta wonder what your hair looked like after.

Seriously… how can anyone compete with Penn State right now?! I don’t blame the top kids for wanting to go there, but it’s no fun for everybody else. Sucks knowing in April who is going to win the NCAA championships in March. What kind of odds would you need to take the field over Penn State right now?

Now that the team race is a forgone conclusion for the foreseeable future, Cael has time to reflect on what needs to be done next to cement his legacy of destroying college wrestling. Given the surfeit of studs on his roster, collegiate wrestling's Thanos is going to need to push for multiple entries at each weight class to prevent some of his gems from falling into enemy hands. At that point, will he relent and allow a dual-meet championship format? I wouldn't hold my breath...

ahh ... you forgot the dodgeball initiative.

What do you think is going on right now? A tidal wave of "defections" from Russia? Seriously, "defect" is a word that I have not heard since 1992 when the USSR broke up. Do you realize that "we in the US" are the recipients of the most propaganda of any nation in the world, including China, Iran, Russia and North Korea. This propaganda is shoveled into the trough by EVERY mainstream media outlet, from Fox to MSNBC. At least the intelligent people in the abovementioned nations UNDERSTAND that the media message is controlled. But Americans, after years and years of repeated and more serious lies from the mainstream media, continue to watch and believe these sources for information on everything. These are the most gullible people in the world, willing to gobble up the most outrageous lies and misrepresentations of truth. I mean, what do you think is going on? Russian interference in US elections? Russian bombing of the Nord Stream pipelines? Ukraine is winning the war? Ukraine will launch an offensive that will recover Crimea? China is the one disrupting the status quo in the Taiwan Strait? Putin will be dead of cancer next week? After taking Taiwan, China will want to take over Japan, the Philippines, and perhaps Korea for good measure? Chinese citizens have opened "police stations" in the US? Back to wrestling: Amine had absolutely nothing for Dauren Kureugliev , who probably just wants to wrestle, and THAT is the reason he is in Greece. Can you point to any public statements where he attacks Russia and explains his "defection"?

Just put it in Philadelphia. You still get the the huge PSU crowd, but other people will be able to attend without driving through 3 hours of farmland.

I don't want to take this totally off topic, but this is like a "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Ok...sure. But the gun also helps. Isn't Religion QUITE often the reason FOR the people killing people? Certainly in a historical sense, but even today...it's a pretty big deal. Things are quite a bit different now though. A cartoon insulting Jesus would have gotten you killed 500 years ago...now it's called Family Guy(or the Simpsons or Ricky and Marty or whatever it is).

We'll see. It's really just 2 or 3 Wrestlers to be a top 10 team. Last time I can recall Edinboro being a top 10 team would PROBABLY be when they had King at '65, Dubuque at '25 and I'm guessing maybe 2 other AAs. That's still well within reach. There HAVE been teams this dominant before. PSU has yet to put together a run like Iowa did in '83 or '97(though I think they're going to). I don't know how Cornell is a powerhouse given the disadvantages they have...or how PSU wasn't ALWAYS dominant. It's really no different than CFB, but there's a larger pool of teams that can win it year to year. I know a HS coach who has won multiple State Titles and he has his teams celebrate each Conference Championship(they went like...14 years and 120 some duels without losing) and every Regional Title(probably won more of those than Conf Titles) because he didn't want his kids thinking the only thing worth celebrating was a State Title. I think a good coach applies that College. You celebrate an ACC, Ivy, B12, MAC title, celebrate NQs. We take more of a Macro view, but a really close friend of mine had a kid win a D2 Title. That was a monumental accomplishment. So it doesn't have to be JUST about NCAA Team Titles...even if that's what we're going to focus on here on the boards. If that was the case, people would have been in awe the last decade. PSU APPEARS to be reaching a whole other level. They're competing against themselves at this point and it looks like they're kicking their own ass from the last decade.

I think maybe the comment about you not being the real Cinnabon from the old board has you trying extra hard now to convince everyone.

That's because Iowa and Gable weren't getting all the top talent back then. Gable averaged less than one top-10 recruit per class. It was also a lot harder to find the best of the best back then. You had to travel and use your contacts; no Flo to watch matches. Iowa Top 10 Recruits under Gable (1976 - 1997) ( .76 per year): 1976 King Mueller Bolingbrook HS, Bolingbrook, IL Mike DeAnna Bay Village HS, Bay Village, OH 1977 Randy Lewis Stevens HS, Rapid City, SD Dean Phinney Clear Lake HS, Clear Lake, IA 1978 [None] 1979 Mark Trizzino Central HS, Joliet, IL Jeff Kerber Emmetsburg HS, Emmetsburg, IA 1980 [None] 1981 [None] 1982 [None] 1983 Steve Knight Clinton HS, Clinton, IA Mark Sindlinger Charles City HS, Charles City, IA 1984 Joe Melchiore Highland Reg. HS, Blackwood, NJ 1985 [None] 1986 Terry Brands 1987 Bart Chelesvig Webster City HS, Webster City, IA 1988 [None] 1989 [None] 1990 Ray Brinzer N. Allegheny HS, Wexford, PA * [Iowa did not recruit Brinzer] 1991 [None] 1992 Mike Mena Newman Central Catholic HS, Illinois Lincoln McIlravy Phillip HS, South Dakota 1993 Jeff McGinness Iowa City HS, Iowa Joseph Williams Mt. Carmel HS, Illinois 1994 [None] 1995 [None] 1996 [None]

That may be true, but I think the days of an Edinboro or Central Michigan having a period where they are right up there with the second tier of teams are effectively over.

First, lets start by pointing out that it's not accurate to say Iowa didn't get the best Wrestlers just as PSU is now and they just developed them. They were getting many of the best as well and they were also using any means(legal) to them. Again, they were running camps, paying the established stars like the Brands(the guys who you'd go to the camp for beyond just the obvious that it was a Gable camp) and he'd pay them cash(again, legally) so they could pay their own tuition, they'd come off scholarship and then he'd be able to offer a full scholarship to a Mcllravy, Ironside...etc...(both big time recruits) or the Williams who were again, elite recruits. As for that list...that's a little mis-leading. Now do '23 and '24. They had 5 a ton of young talent already going into that '22 class. They really are getting their pick of Wrestlers. I'd venture a guess that this was one of PSUs worst recruiting classes in a long time. But "all the talent" is obviously hyperbole. They're getting their pick of Wrestlers...and, they've earned it. Even if they had the historic class OSU had, what would it change? Tom Ryan needs to take the talent he brought to tOSU, develop 2,3,4 National Champs from that class. They need to find a way to better develop some of these studs they get. That's how it builds upon itself. That and I'll go back to the idea that landing a guy like Snyder or DT when they're ready to move into coaching, that could be HUGE for a program like OSU(particularly OSU).

I wouldn’t be disappointed at all. Go Mizzou and KOT.

I think you might be disappointed. O Toole by more then a couple

Probably best to lay off Vak. He isn't just royalty around here, he is actually respected and a well articulated individual. In fact he is the only Iowa fan I know that can type or speak words with more than two syllables... and I have been around D1 B1G wrestling in some capacity since the 1980s so I have seen a lot of Iowa fans, wrestlers, coaches, etc.

Keep drinking the kool-aid. He hasn't wrestled a single starter in D1 yet nor has he even cracked the starting lineup at any D1 college. He gets an insane amount of credit for three major things. Beating Haines in Freestyle... a kid who just made it through an entire challenge tournament - at 70 KG (~154lbs), for being Askren's coach's son, and for Haines' results because he beat him. Now he is the next DT/Askren hybrid up at 165lbs and is going to be the consensus#3 165lber in 11 months? No.

Seems to be going around. https://apnorc.org/projects/trumps-legal-issues-have-little-impact-on-his-support/

A guy as talented as Messenbrink (the son of Askren’s coach), who gets to work out with Nolf, Dake, Haines and Starocci, and will be coached by Cunningham? After Carr, I’d bet he’s the most likely to knock him off. O’Toole will be in trouble if Starocci comes back in 24-25. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don’t hate an MOV style (we discussed on Mat Stats), but just no no no on decimals. That isn’t something I can ever come around on.

It's the way of the PSU freshman... they always keep with NCAA champs... sorry...world champs....er I meant Galaxy champs.

Over cenzos freshman run? He beat Keaton Subjeck 1st round who beat cenzo earlier in the year ,then ashworth, then Daniel Lewis and massa who were both ranked ahead of him all year then topped it off by pinning Imar

A man is only as faithful as his options...

Just read Mitchell Mesenbrink's interview on Flowrestling about why he chose Penn State. He described the "Tiger Style" philosophy to a "T"! Everywhere in the article that read as "Penn State", I just interjected "Mizzou" in my mind. Love this kids attitude. Sure would have looked good in Gold n Black. Guess I'm still wondering why Mizzou didn't pursue him harder than Cal Baptist, in the first place. Gotta let it go!

I didn't mean that as an insult to Willie but it came across harsher than intended. I am sure most people here, myself included, would love to have a beer with @Husker_Du. But you are out your mind if you don't think Cael is picking his brain. That's a compliment of the highest order. Not sure I would completely agree with this. If wrestling is to be compared to academics, it's more like an art class than quantum mechanics. Everyone can sit at an easel and paint a bowl of fruit. The skilled teacher can critique and advise the 5 year old and the advanced student differently as he passes by so that it is productive for both. Even Askren has openly stated his surprise at the lack of development of some of PSU's lesser wrestlers. It speaks to importance of picking the right guys from the beginning. It also raises the question of what actually happens in a PSU practice. As an aside, I can't wait for Cael to have beef with Askren when Ben blabs some PSU gossip he hears from his AWA guys on FRL.

Yes. No, seriously though, he already basically said he was kidding...kinda. In the sense that Cael has some grand scheme. Bernie Truax wanted to go to PSU. He was offered more elsewhere. He WANTED to go to PSU. Messenbrink said he didn't care about the money, he wanted to go to the place that would give him the best chance to reach his goals. He's gonna be working out with Levi Haines, Mark Hall, Vincenzo Joseph(he still there)...Facundo who...remember like 6 months ago was arguably the best of the 3 Freshmen and was in the deepest, toughest weight? The kid could end up the 3rd stringer...and also one of the top 8 in the Country. I don't think we will see multiple juggernauts. Penn State is entering a new level right now. An era where they could look like the '83 Hawkeyes year after year. You just cannot compare the current Wrestling Landscape with Football from any era. Alabama was always being pushed. It's just a totally different sport. Even during 'Bama's run, they've had 2 undefeated seasons and each year they had games they VERY easily could have lost. In fact, I think they had to come from behind to be Auburn in his first NC run in the SEC Championship game and then nearly lost to Florida in their last. Penn State is absolutely LAPPING the competition and the best Wrestlers are picking PSU over other programs, other blue blood programs with more money to offer because they just simply want to train at and wrestle for the best. To compare it to Alabama, they'd have to have ~10 1st team AAs each year and then a couple of 2nd or 3rd teamers and dominate like dominate a whole helluva lot more than they have. Penn State is more akin to where UConn was when they were in one of their 100 game winning streaks or the UCLA Bruins in the 60s and 70s. They might as well get Vito and Nagao to transfer in while they're at it and have Vito go back down to '25. See if they can just sweep the NCAAs(again, I'm being hyperbolic here, but they have 8 legitimate Title Contenders as it stands, several '25 pounders who will come in and compete with Robbie Howard who finally got his shoulder fixed and even if Nagao ends up elsewhere, they're so loaded, it'll be a matter of winning the NCAAs by 70 or 90 points. This is the deepest, most talented team I've seen and they've got so much more talent coming through. Just imagine if Hopke ends up there. Not good for the sport, but it's going to be very interesting to watch and there's not much to do at this point than sit back and appreciate/respect what they've built.

I think you have results wrong at 157 and 165 but otherwise agree. Could see Truax beating Keckeisen. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Iowa + Nagao + 3 Ferraris can beat Penn State

Worse than that, if you put the best 10 non PSU wrestlers on one tournament team could they even beat Penn State?

Wrestling community in a nutshell. Proposal: Hey maybe we should do similar things to the organizations that have made their sports Uber successful and popular… Wrestling people… “ahhhhh!!! Nooooo!! change is scary. Let’s keep doing same things and watch sport keep shrinking.. and just blame it on “da kids these days” and um to the person saying without riding time people will just stall on bottom… no

Good thing he got some rest there. mspart

He ate a fist

Sheesh, that's the stuff of nightmares.