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IMO, fans get too worked up about statistics (including W/L) and the importance of them. The stats are almost always overrated. I think guys who have losses like Vito, Gomez, KOT, (a ton more), etc. really get after it and that is far more important than some other wrestler having better stats. Not to pick specifically on Fix or Lewan, but wrestling with the idea that you want to win a strategic match rather than get after it is a lose/lose situation - loss for both fans and for the sport. Judging wrestlers' greatness by their W/L record and other stats is a crutch used by those who don't know wrestling. Some of the greatest wrestlers took losses. That's OK.

August Wesley?

I think they should get extra credit for still wrestling at that age...

I may be there throughout, but I'm in meetings or heading into our staff room to eat once that last whistle blows and we close the session. Three long days and we have to use our breaks accordingly. I know I did see mats being mopped this year, but can't tell you how frequently. There's other things I've got to keep an eye on.

Cannon is looking at Ohio State, they are in dire need of at least six more 133lbers.

141 Kizhan Clarke was a grad transfer and took 2nd 133 also had McGee 4th and Myers 6th 149 had parco 8th 174 would be kemp from cal poly lee kemps grandson went 1-2 as 16 seed first year at cal poly after transferring from Fresno state 184- would be trey Munoz made the R12

We'll just have to disagree on the Cael stuff. I know people who have been in the practice room and everyone says the same thing. What Cael is doing behind closed doors is unique and very different from every other program. He's a genius as is Gable

I agree with you regarding Biden, Harris, and Trump. DeSantis is very competent and not nearly as polarizing as Trump. The Ds have a real problem with Biden and Harris. Both are not up to the job. This has been borne out by Biden's obvious mental decline and Harris' inability to string together a few coherent sentences. DeSantis suffers from neither and doesn't self inflict like Trump. Of the 4, DeSantis is superior in my opinion. Are there better Ds out there? Maybe that is a question that should be answered. mspart

Either way, not sure how we got to the point of these four being the best choices we have to run the country. This is a very bad episode of Survivor.

Hey PortaJohn, This is just my opinion. Gable's style may have been more simple but his style of coaching was very mental. I think Gable was more intuitive about his wrestlers than Brands. Maybe Cael is there (based on performance). Gable was able to get the most out of his wrestlers and that wasn't based only on his simple style. It was his ability to give each individual what they needed to succeed mentally. I won't say it was smarter, he just saw his wrestlers differently and knew them and worked them in a way they needed to be worked. Brands is not there. I see Brands as a ground and pound guy, devoid of nuance. mspart

It's been too long since I've seen his name - thank you!

This is exactly why Taylor was a better college wrestler than Dake

Dibatista https://www.eiwawrestling.org/HOF/Hall_of_Fame/dibatista-dick?view=bio

Another tragic example of Sanderson recruiting over.

Maybe it's as simple as both have finished undergrad, and it's really hard to get into NW Grad school for whatever program they are looking at?

Here's an example of the need to be able to edit a post.....It should have said "There was one guy pushing", and, "how does that thing pick up", and "between sessions"....I must have been half asleep.

Per Bud Hennebaul, who works on the site logistics and such at the NCAAs, the mats were mopped and cleaned before each day and between sessions as they have been for years. Combined with the UV treatments and no reported issues from the 2021 and 2022 championships, this seems like it is something a bit bigger and it seems like there’s a lot of assumptions being passed along as facts on social (shocker, I know).

Diakomihalis secured three takedowns and Murin secured/gifted four escapes to make the score 6-4 after two periods. Diakomihalis tacked on a reversal in the third to make it 8-4. Murin earns his fifth escape and secured one takedown. Diakomihalis won 8 to 7. A fairer score is 8 to 2. If there were zero points for escapes, the Rooks versus Van Ness match goes differently. Rooks would be leading 6 to 0 at the beginning of the third period rather than 7 to 3. The final score would be Rooks victory or overtime rather than a 9 to 7 Van Ness victory. Fix this.

Victor Glover

An acquaintance of mine was in the pool for that selection. She’s a former (due to new occupation) pro cyclist with a PhD in biological engineering. Her boyfriend/partner is the first man to ever go below 4 minutes in the individual 4000m pursuit. Whenever I read the resume of the average astronaut I am reminded of how utterly amazing some people are; these people are literally the best of us. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i am a menace to sobriety... even i am like nah bruh...

I'm not justifying any location. I'm speaking from experience on how we as a fanbase will never be satisfied with anything.

Of course Mcllravy would be great in today's Wrestling. I have no doubt about that. Same goes with all these guys. I don't know that he'd have the same level of success. I think you'd take a guy like Gerry Abas who was pretty clearly a superior technician and he'd most likely just be in better shape and hold onto a a match like the one Mcllravy had as a Freshmen. As I said, I got talked out of my position on Mcllravy a bit. I had him in the top 3-4 all time(again, starting in the "modern era when guys got to Wrestle for 4 years)...but an old coach/Wrestler made a persuasive argument that he wouldn't be able to just grind guys down and moved him down So I'm really not firm in where I put Mcllravy beyond great. Is he top 5, 10...top 15? He was great and he'd be great if he was coming up now. And it should be obvious why athletes from the ~80s weren't as advanced in terms of technique. So many of them started Wrestling in HS or maybe 8th grade. Lee Kemp started as a Soph in Ohio after getting cut from Basketball, was like 11-8 as a JR and then won two state titles and was in the NCAA finals as a Freshmen. So of course I think guys who were that physically gifted would have a lot of success today... If you're comparing guys and how dominant they were in their era vs how dominant the PSU guys are now, then it tilts the board back a little more even. I'd still probably lean PSU, but it'd be close. I don't think anyone can have too much confidence in these guesses though. Joe Williams vs David Taylor? Even using how they were vs their contemporaries, how do you envision that match going. If you're including FS accolades, I guess Taylor gets it, but again, Williams is a guy I have a ton of respect for. I was a kid went he was Wrestling and that guy looked like a comic book character. His waist looked like it was 28 inches, his chest about 48 and he just controlled guy. TJ Williams is right there as well. Those were ironically a couple guys from Iowa who DIDN'T seem like they pressed the pace as much as other Iowa greats. You're talking about ALL TIME greats in almost every weight class...and both sides have guys not included. Barry Davis 3X Champ, 160-some wins? Mark Ironside, Randy Lewis? He was a fluke injury from being 2/1/1/1. Carter Starocci could win 5 NCAA Titles and he's not on there and if he is, Ed Ruth who was 3/1/1/1 and about as dominant as you can be doing so isn't on the list for PSU. I can go down these rabbit holes watching hours of certain guys or different Wrestling. In fact, when I reached out and asked the aforementioned older Wrestler about some of these guys, he sent me a bunch of videos and I watched about a dozen Randy Lewis matches. I have massive respect for all of these guys.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/14613

people give me a bunch of poo for how i am and how i think... i am just not impressed by much... but... strapping your ass on top of the biggest propulsion we can create and blasting off into space is next level crazy and total man stuff... test pilots at the beginning of the true jet propulsion probably the only more manly thing i can think... total commitment...

You can't compare Gable and Sanderson as to who is superior coach, they are both transcendent figures in the sport. If they were contemporaries you could do it. But they are both amazing coaches. Both got/get the best out of their wrestlers. Why does Cael have to "say very much" ? Penn State's results speak for themselves. Also, Caels wrestlers have mad respect for him. Listen to Bo or Q Wright or Max Dean who this year who said " Cael is a leader of men when our country really needs people like that" Cael and Gable are the class of our sport. Gable said his HS coach would say "You win with Humility and Lose with Dignity, but just don't lose damn it." I think he owned that. People who don't like Cael are upset about his success. All he does is win and he does it with humility. You can't find a negative sound bite from the guy. Any negative about Cael gets come from his detractors. Also, Cael has built teams and he also put together his amazing coaching staff. People may not know who Casey Cunningham is if Cael hadn't made him part of his team.

scourge, I won't repeat everything you said in your very long and intense response, thanks by the way, it is good reading. But when I think of the old guys vs the new guys, I'm not thinking the techniques they had. I'm thinking about the qualities that made them champions. Do you think if McIlravy was coming up today, he would be no champion? With the mental toughness and desire for excellence, he would have figured it out just like he did a long time ago. Same with most of these older guys. Gable looks downright basic when he wrestled, but do you think a guy like him who HAD to win would have settled for anything less now as opposed to then? That is the kind of comparison I have in my mind when I do these games. I just feel that the guys back then, if they came around now, would still be incredible like they were then because they would have found a way like they did then. mspart

Most people will love KC next year. The T-Mobile Center is an easy 20 minute drive from the newly refurbished airport, right off the intersection of 2 interstates, and right in the middle of the Power and Light district. They hosted Big 12's a few years ago and did a great job. Can't wait! https://www.powerandlightdistrict.com/

Whether Desantis likes Trump or not he surely acts like him and wants to be the supreme ruler. He's killing education in Florida and running teachers out of the state. I know that is a part of the big R plan, so every R will cheer for education only for the rich. Desantis like the others are afraid of Drag Queens and kids reading books so much that they want to ban them permanently. He is smarter than Trump, which isn't hard to do, and knows how to work the system to get what he wants. If the R's want to win they know they need to have Trump qualities or his followers won't vote at all and they'll lose again. If they would have cut ties with Trump and moved the party a shade to the center they would capture many voters who voted D in the last election.

Not sure I would call Desantis a trump clone...he can't stand the guy. And had this conversation, well tried to have this conversation with my mom and stepdad last night, as they are pretty far left, about Desantis and they struggled when I asked questions around what books is he banning and what is he doing that is so bad to Disney? Without just using the catch phrases like he is banning books and he passed the "don't say gay" law, both of which is and has been proven completely false, anyway they couldn't really articulate which books he has "banned". As for the Disney thing...I think we all hashed that out in another thread, but they to couldn't articulate why what Desantis is doing to Disney is "bad". I think for the R's to win, it will have to be Desantis showing the public who he truly is, which isn't anything like Trump, and isn't what all the MSM has tried to make him out to be. But my bigger hope is that the D's can find a good candidate so we all have something to choose from other then Trump and/or Biden.

Been posted (either on this thread or the other and on twitter) that nothing has changed on how often or how they clean the the NCAAs. So as far as I can tell, they are doing the same thing they did in previous years.

He was an Olympic champ a year before his first NCAA Title...so while you can't just hand out NCs, I think it's safe to say he would have won it. As for where he ranks all-time...we're really just guessing. 2X Olympic Champ, 3X undefeated Champ...the credentials speak for themselves. It's just like the Iowa vs PSU matchup. It's too difficult to compare Wrestlers from one era to another. Agreed. I don't quite have the same issue with guys who wrestle a more strategic match. It depends who it is. Marinelli or RBY? One is capable of attacking and wrestling "strategically" is a choice. One is just limited physically and he needs to try and sorta grind you down and wear you out. It's one of the things Cael CLEARLY does a good job at, having his Wrestlers attack without the fear of giving up points. That's a metal hurdle a lot of guys struggle to get over. But just again, I think you're absolutely right...there is no formula to come up with the best Wrestlers ever. Every 3X Champ isn't ahead of David Taylor. Every 4X Champ isn't ahead of every 3X Champ. Lee Kemp is ahead of...Logan Stieber in my opinion. He lost in the finals on a referees decision....by the way, lets bring that back...see how fun we can make shit next year! Just have refs picking who wins if the match is tied after 7 minutes! I want no criteria...I want to hear a ref say to Tom Brands upon asking why Real Woods lost on a referees decision, "because you're very mean to me." Seriously though, it's NEVER as simple as putting shit into a formula. BUT...it also makes it virtually impossible to really rank Wrestlers from before the ~80s. A lot of my opinions are informed by a couple guys who Wrestled in the 80s, who saw these Wrestlers, one who reffed and actually reffed a lot of Iowa. But I guess that's how it works in every sport, isn't it? If you actually know Football, you understand you can't compare QB stats from the 1970s to today. The game has just changed too much.

All the highways (toll roads) were great!

Ben Peterson could be in the conversation, but I agree.

This seems fair...and I'd say something both Cael and Brands have in common that very few coaches do(I'd argue Koll might have a similar ability). Brands and a guy like Ryan, they can recruit elite Wrestlers. It seems like Cael(or maybe it's Cunningham, who knows) is looking for a type and Gable did have an incredible ability to get the best out of his athletes. The Barry Davis story where he tried to leave before the B1Gs might be the best example.

I think this is correct. Even though DeSantis is behind, I think once he starts campaigning there will be a shift in peoples opinions. mspart

Ironside is a good dude. I've had the pleasure to get to meet him on a few occasions. He's remembered meeting me(first when I was a HS kid) and then came up and have some kind words when I saw him at the NCAAs. Too bad he got screwed so bad here.

Calm down. Big venues/events need the appropriate facilities and environment. NCAAs is a social event for the wrestling community.. not just a wrestling tournament. Many people get to see other people they haven’t seen or talked to in a long time. It being an “event” is what makes it special. Wanting a location with adequate much less actually good.. and most importantly.. ENOUGH hotels, bars, and food venues.. isn’t “dissing” on blue collar republican America the way you’re trying to say.. especially because Ohio and Missouri aren’t what one would call “blue” states…. and everyone was happy with those venues.

RE: The Push-Out Point I think three years ago I would have definitely say YES, but I believe the refs(at least DI) have figured out how to call the out of bounds in a consistent manner. There are very few calls on the edge that make me wonder what is going on versus the first couple years. One thing to understand is that it takes a couple years for referees to become accustomed to calling new rules.

Again, how did this po dunk town get an NCAA’ event? The wrestling community deserves better!

What's going on?!? I could vote only once per question!! I am from a blue state and I demand my voting right, and another voting right, and another right, until my side wins. I also want to know how many votes the other side got before I begin my voting sesssions to ensure fairness and transparency. Because, you know, that democracy thing.

I can't think of a single time when I've seen the mats mopped in between matches. I'd be hard pressed to come up with a time that I've seen mats mopped between rounds even.

It is fine to increase TDs and reversals by a point to give stronger credit rather than 'penalizing' the escape by making it zero points. Reversals and TDs should have equal points rather than TDs getting more. Keep the complexity out of scoring. There must be zero consideration for situational points based on whether the top man freely lets bottom man loose versus bottom man earns his way.

The freestyle rules crowd are actively trying to kill folk style. By far the most popular domestic style. Attendance figures should be posted at events like NCAAs vs WTTs. It’s like an insurrection or something. Folk style was fine…. Leave the rules alone.

Risk and reward. If he gets the reversal he gets 2 pts instead of 1. He is free to make that decision.

The bottom man's reward for getting back to his feet is being on his feet. The bonus is preventing the top man from scoring control points