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I always thought the guy who got screwed the most with the 19-20 mess was Matt Kolodzik from Princeton who burned his Olympic redshirt in February to help his team then got shut down when they cancelled the NCAA’s at the last minute.

The Carr-O'Toole match from tonight got me thinking about how often two individuals with NCAA titles meet. It is somewhat unusual and even more unusual for it feature wrestlers as exceptional as these two. Through nearly 7 seasons of competition they had lost a combined 3 matches going into the bout. It's pretty crazy. Below I submit below a partial list of meetings between NCAA champions 1972-present, but that is only really mostly complete 2000-present. The year noted is the year of the NCAA tournament for the season the match was wrestled. Ex. Starocci and Lewis wrestled in the All Star match in Nov 2022. This match took place in the 2022-2023 season and is noted as 2023 in the list below. 1972 Dziedzic-Adams All Star 1977 Jackson-Belenburg NCAAs 1980 Lewis-Burley Dual 1980 Lewis-Burley All Star 1980 Lewis-Burley NCAAs 1981 Lewis-Burley Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Midlands 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz NCAAs 1992 Prescott-Terry Brands Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica All Star 1995 Branch-Mollica NCAAs 1996 Branch-Mollica Las Vegas 1996 Branch-Mollica Dual 1997 Bono-McIlravy Dual? 1997 Bono-McIlravy Midlands 1997 Bono-McIlravy NCAAs 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Dual 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Big Tens 1999 Fullhart-Hartung NCAAs 2004 Mocco-Rowlands NCAAs 2004 Lee-Thompson Dual 2004 Lee-Thompson NCAAs 2006 Letters- Hendricks Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo NCAAs 2010 Escobedo-Nickerson NCAAs 2011 Howe-Burroughs Midlands 2013 Ruth-Bosak Scuffle 2013 Ruth-Bosak NCAAs 2013 Dake-Taylor All Star Dake 100-4, Taylor 70-1, Combined 170-5 2013 Dake-Taylor Scuffle 2013 Dake-Taylor NCAAs 2013 Wright-Kilgore NCAAs 2014 Stieber-Maple All Star 2014 Perry-Howe Dual 2014 Perry-Howe Big Tens 2014 Perry Howe NCAAs 2016 Snyder-Gwiazdowski NCAAs Snyder 40-4, Gwiazdowski 139-11 2017 Martin-Dean All Star 2017 Martin-Dean Dual 2018 Nickal-Martin Dual Nickal 79-3, Martin 87-15, Combined 166-18 2018 Nickal-Martin Big Tens Nickal 84-3, Martin 92-16, Combined 176-19 2018 Nickal-Martin NCAAs Nickal 89-3, Martin 96-17, Combined 185-20 2018 Joseph-IMar Big Tens Joseph 42-5, Imar 111-2, Combined 153-7 2018 Joseph-IMar NCAAs Joseph 46-6. Imar 116-2, Combined 162-8 2019 Hall-Valencia Dual Hall 70-4, Valencia 79-1, Combined 149-5 2019 Hall-Valencia NCAAs Hall 93-4, Valencia 100-3, Combined 193-7 2022 Starocci-Lewis NCAAs Sartocci 36-2 Lewis 72-5, Combined 108-7 2023 Starocci-Lewis All Star Starocci 38-2, Lewis 75-6, Combined 113-8 2023 Carr-O'Toole Dual Carr 84-2, O'Toole 56-1, Combined 140-3

Amen. And the weird thing last night is there was no challenge that precipitated the review in the Johnson/Mauller match. The refs made the call, then doubted themselves, then took forever to review the call that no one asked them to review, then confirmed the original call. In that case, it sure looked like the presence of video became a crutch, or a source of fear that they would be second guessed.

My daughter figuratively pats me on the head whenever I reminisce about my wrestling 'career'. Thankfully, I still outweigh her so she has to tread lightly.

Kolodzik pulled his redshirt because it became apparent during the course of the season that Princeton had a legit shot at winning the Ivy League title. Cornell, the perennial champ of the league, was depleted with their top 3 wrestlers (Yianni, Dean, and Vito) on Olympic redshirt. They ended up beating Cornell 19-13 so Kolodzik's contribution proved decisive and Princeton won their 1st Ivy League title since 1986. All Ivy wrestlers got screwed more than most as none could benefit from the free 2021 year without transferring. Any that wrestled in 2020 lost a shot at NCAAs and didn't get the free year unless they transferred. Kolodzik entered NCAAs undefeated and seeded 6th. He had a chance to win it, but maybe not a better chance than the 1 seed Pat Lugo. Lugo also missed out on an excellent shot at a team title. Top seeds that wrestled their last eligible year in 2020. 125: Jack Mueller: 4th seed,14-1, finalist 2019 125: Nick Piccininni: 3rd seed, 26-2 133: Seth Gross: 2nd seed, 27-2, 2017 NCAA champ 133: Chaz Tucker: 3rd seed, 31-0, never AAed 141: Luke Pletcher: 1 seed, 26-1 149: Pat Lugo: 1 seed 21-1 149: Matt Kolodzik: 6th seed, 14-0 165: Vincenzo Joseph: 2nd seed, 15-1 174: Mark Hall: 1 seed, 23-1 2017 NCAA Champ 174: Jordan Kutler: 3 seed, 21-1 174: Bryce Steiert: 5th seed 27-3 174: Joe Smith: 12 seed, 12-6 184: Taylor Lujan: 1 seed, 28-2, Never AAed 197: Kollin Moore: 1 seed, 27-0 197: Ben Darmstadt, 4 seed, 28-6 285: Tanner Hall, 4seed 23-3 (Imagine if he had taken a second Olympic redshirt and got 2021 for free and was able to compete in 2022 as well) Other wrestler that had eligibility left and used some of it but never duplicated their 2020 success. 133: Micky Phillippi: 4 seed, 25-1, has not AAed to date 133: Sebastian Rivera: 1 seed, 13-2, never won a title 149: Boo Lewallen: 5th seed, 21-2, wrestled in 2021, did not return in 2022 165: Alex Marinelli: 1 seed, 20-1, never won a title 174: Jake Kemerer: 2 seed, 15-1, never won a title 184: Hunter Bolen: 2 seed, 24-2, 7th place in 2021, DNP 2022, ranked 7th 2023 197: Noah Adams: 2 seed, 32-0, wrestled in 2021, did not return in 2022, never AAed

Took me a second to figure out where this board moved to (been busy with new baby and life), but just wanted to say WOW about Carr. That’s an absolute master class in neutralizing O’Toole’s elite scrambling. He stuck O’Toole’s hips to the mat and never gave him much of a chance to get funky. Using that leg for constant leverage was great stuff. Kudos to Dresser for getting him coached up and kudos to Carr for executing the gameplan to perfection. I need to see this one again in March.

I am ok with leaving it. This is an example of a completely civilized way to clear up an honest misunderstanding. The internet needs the example.

This could have been my post! Wrestled one season (freshman) of high school wrestling. Was third on the depth chart of five 88-pounders (Yes, I'm that old). Lost every wrestle-off to the JV starter, who was also a freshman. Tortured by the varsity starter (a sophomore) in practice. Finally, late in the season, we had a dual against a team who also had three wrestlers, so he and I wrestled an exhibition match (in my practice gear, because you had to be a JV starter to get a singlet.) I took him down and rode him out, earning a 3-0 decision with riding time (Yes, I'm that old). Shortly thereafter broke my arm wrestling (in gym class!) so that was the end of my season. At the start of sophomore year there was this girl that I had a crush on, and she was trying out for the school play, so I went too. She failed the audition, but I got the lead, so, since after-school rehearsals conflicted with wrestling practice, that was the end of my wrestling career. Pretty sure that some invisible hand made sure that I ended up where my relative talents (and lack thereof) belonged. My son had a nice high school career, one of the best wrestlers on his team. But, whenever I thought he might be getting a big head I reminded him that his old man had retired from wrestling no only undefeated, but also unscored upon.

These ones are hard to spot. No good source for regular season data that far back and they wrestled different weights at NCAAs. My list only have a few of these cross weight matchups. Back before the weight cutting rules changed in the late 1990s they were probably much more prevalent. Moving weights mid season was much more prevalent and some guys would wrestle the whole season at a higher weight because they don't want to cut and then drop right before the post season. Here are the cross weight matchups from the list 1992 Prescott-Terry Brands Dual 2014 Stieber-Maple All Star

I went from great in high school to not being the worst one in the room my first 1.5 years in college. I literally couldn't score a point on anyone.

I was asked to coach my daughter's soccer team one year. I had never played and never coached. There was some dishonesty involved by the team organizers and we wound up having to play U18 even though we had players as young as 13 and only 3 17 year-olds. But enough about my excuses. We went 0-12-1. I missed the tie, so I was 0-12 as head coach and the assistant was 0-0-1. My daughter was the co-high scorer on the team with 1 goal. The 13 year old had the other goal.

It's our fault for feeding the troll.

Yeah, the free Covid year was dumb the way they applied it. If they felt it was necessary it should have applied to anyone who was competing in 2020, as their NCAA tournament was canceled. They way they applied it punished any seniors in their fourth year of competition in 2020, and gave a fifth year, and thus a chance to compete at five NCAA tournaments, to anyone that did not compete in 2020 (redshirts, Oly redshirts, and 2021 freshman) but did compete the next year.

Both Hall and Joseph (and anyone who was wrestling their senior year) used their last year of eligibility up the cancelled year. It was a ridiculous situation, but it is the truth. Massa, Amine, and Micic all were Olympic Redshirting that year otherwise they would have also been done that year too.

Yeah...it does jive. As you said, he redshirted the first year. So now he gets 2021(free) 2022...and I don't know why the hell he's Wrestling now...I'd guess Medical RS, but it has nothing to do with Hall or Joseph. They weren't given a free year for 2020. There was no free year until 2021. So they'd wrestled and completed FOUR years...and that was all you got until this little Covid thing where they inexplicably gave guys the NEXT year a free year. You're going to be able to point out how others got 5 shots at NCAAs and some guys wrestled until they were eligible for Medicare. Doesn't matter. They were both pre-covid and they both used up all 4 years. Really...trust me or wait until someone else jumps in, but they didn't leave eligibility on the table. They both exhausted it. Both had 4 full years...per the NCAA. Which sucks, but it jives.

I just got home from the 2 hr drive to CoMo. Lots of exciting/close matches and good crowd in attendance when you consider it's a Wednesday night dual. Glad to see the "home boys" win the dual. Kudos are in order to Carr for winning the feature match, and to both for not ducking and helping to fill the seats. Already looking forward to round two and KO's adjustments. Going to be a lot of good battles between these two and will elevate both for next level. Iowa State is my 2nd favorite team and I root for them as long as they are not wrestling my Tigers. Have a lot of respect for Dresser and what he is doing with that program.

What do people think about this? I feel like this is recency bias. This match was great but gotta think Gomez 9-2 (or close) over Yianni was more impressive?

point being... more empathy in this world is better and if me looking like a total jackass helps someone else understand maybe they should take a second then it was well well worth it...

I was thinking back on this topic from other forums, but nevertheless intrigued if others think of schools having wrestling as a Varsity sport would be sick. I would love to see Western Oregon University (D2) bring back wrestling. I think it would be very benefical and bring enthusiasm to the wrestling scene even more with Oregon State, Linfield (D3, revived this current wrestling season) and other NAIA schools that brought wrestling to the local region of the Pacific Northwest and beyond of having more opportunities as of late. There is some hard nosed talent over on that side of the nation that can really benefit saying close to home. Especially back to Western Oregon. The program was shut down due to Measure 5 of property taxes and ultimately because of it, the program was cut with 65 seasons of program history in 1991 with a few of those wrestlers actually making the national champions at that season. Hopefully the "Mat Men" come back sooner then later. Here a link of there history for those interested. Link: https://wou.edu/westernhowl/the-history-of-westerns-wrestling-program/

Bader does a great job with these.

I think there's a quote that explains the existence of this thread. "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" -Abraham Maslow I think I also might have accidentally stumbled on one of them there phallic symbols.

Don't discount that I was trying to type and watch. All errors are my own.

7-2

If you're talking Sheets- he did. https://okstate.com/sports/wrestling/roster/wyatt-sheets/10473 Redshirted '17, medical '18. Then 5 years eligible.

I have thought about that as that may be the only possible caveat.

Hall didn't have time remaining, he used it all up. 4 years and his final year was 2020. Now free year, just...a sad finish for a 3 time finalist. Pretty sure Joseph was just...the same situation but a year older. Meaning he took a RS and then was a RS Freshmen when Hall won it. So Hall went 1/2/2-2020 canceled, no free year Joseph went RS/1/1/2-2020... And if you've used up your 4 years...which 2020 was considered a year, a RS can't do anything.

Listening to 'real' experts, helps us understand how much of a non-expert we all are. Maybe we are knowledgeable, but after we are able to review the expert contributions, the difference between our knowledge and theirs is clear and quantifiable. If it wasn't clear, we can engage in honest conversation with the experts for clarification. Healthy dialog. Listening to 'fake' experts on the internet, has the opposite effect. They create arguments with others rather than contribute in any meaningful way. Their ongoing arguments spread anger and displace any notion of knowledge being the point. A lot of finger-pointing, kicking, screaming, and dialog as you'd have with a rambunctious child. The same model applies for politicians in Congress at this very moment.

Gardner Webb has been scrapping hard this year. I’m not shocked

The technical acumen Carr showed to get the first TD was awesome. And then for the second, he knew Keegan was going to try to throw leg over again — was ready for it … and then, what an excellent methodical finish. Turned me into a big fan.

Hi Fiving my fellow 27.27% that picked Carr

Wow! I thought this would be a great match (and it was) but didn’t see Carr handling it like this

Carr with a beautiful match, wow.

otoole is stilll gonna win

Johnson was robbed

Match took too long. Past the 15 minute edit period, but Johnson in deep, Mauller wizzers, then turns the wizzer into a pinfall. Holy crap.

Feel for Johnson there. Hell of a finish

Man that was brutal, Mauller did nothing while Johnson worked his ass off.

Check...

brutal mental error by brown with the illegal headlock. he had redding in all sorts of trouble there.

Big Elam is a round of 12 guy at best. Just hasn't been able to improve much from year to year.

i know i am coming back to this, but, i can not stress enough how bad i feel right now... i have a reputation on the googlewebs and my kids are known... i reread what i just casually posted and have been crying ever since... even though it was totally innocent i should have thought for a goddamn second... @Le duke was a man immediately and did exactly what i would like to think i would have done given the circumstances... we all like to think we would do the same but that is not the case more often than not...

it goes both ways... we both could have taken a second, but, i am truly grateful you cowboyed up immediately and called me out... there are several lessons that can be learned from this and nothing gets learned if we just sweep shit under the rug and pretend it never happened...

no... it should be there for the record... sometimes shit happens and this is a perfect example of it... i should have been more cognizant...

Hadn't heard of him. Incredible story indeed. Here's a non-flow piece about him:

This is actually on point here. Commercial and political interests have routinely bent science to fit their needs.

SERIOUSLY?? What about these? (How did @headshuck get in this one?)

Now my ads are getting very disturbing.