Leaderboard

Close. The original InterMat was started by Tom Owens in 1995. He created databases that tied wrestler IDs to their names and had an entry/import database that was a bit convoluted to someone who didn't build it. In the early days, he put everything behind the paywall, since college sports sites weren't super prevalent at the time and Sports Information offices were still faxing and rarely e-mailing them out. There was a lot of manual entry in the early years. Tom also had a pretty robust webstore, which sold gear. Tom also used that database for The Predicament, giving the Iowa site the same kind of infrastructure. Tom sold the site to the NWCA, with Brute as co-owner, in 2004. He stayed on for a year and then stepped away. The NWCA hired me in the summer of 2005 and I took over operation of the site under the NWCA from 2005-2008. After the prevalence of those school sites, Tom didn't have the dual results fully paywalled after that, making dual scores free and basic tournament results free, usually linking to brackets he'd scanned or PDFs that were attached. The deep dive profiles and feature articles and recruiting rankings were the only things paywalled. After the three wrestlers died in 1997, the NCAA made sweeping rule changes and the NWCA developed and patented the weight management program. One of the byproducts of that was the recording of results along with the weigh-in data. On NWCAonline, there was a separate database system called the NWCA scorebook. By this time, Tom's original database was starting to lose its relevance for full season results, since the scorebook was supposed to have them. Merging the databases was a bit wonky, but the dual meet entry portion was still part of the InterMat site even after I left for Wrestling 411 after the 2008 season. This is where we get into the crossover discussion. One of my nightly tasks was entering the dual meet results - manually - through the old database since the coaches and SIDs were often 2-5 days behind logging that stuff into the scorebook. To have it "timely" and to keep InterMat "in the lead" with results, I'd spend hours updating results from my apartment, my buddy's house, from the bar (if that bar had wifi). It even prompted my best friend to say "What bad D3 dual are you updating now," as I cracked open a Yuengling Lager at his coffee table. I also had a freelance budget where I'd pay people like the Pirate to help me enter results on those heavy weekends. I had 2-3 people that were assigned certain duals/leagues, so we could attack that data better. There was another website that would wait until I took all the results from my e-mail and from scouring websites nightly and just straight copy them, in order, every night. When I inquired about it, the response was "results aren't proprietary!" as if it was a defense for them just straight ripping off my hours of work. Sure, the results themselves aren't proprietary, but rather the display. So no matter what, the hard work you put in, sometimes as part of your job, sometimes on your own (like my old Virginia-based Mat Talk iteration) will be ripped off, copied, and often presented as "better." I've been using a lot of AI tools to help code operation systems, portals, and to tie in my long-running historical research and logging of results that have never shown up on the internet and some that have. I've had to institute various types of protections to try to make sure that doesn't get scraped and just ripped on to someone else's site. So from a perspective of someone that's put in countless paid and unpaid hours chronicling and displaying results and placement data for the sport the last 30 years, I can side with WS to where their work should be compensated and when almost the same data shows up on another side, nearly instantaneously, it's like "why are we cannibalizing ourselves?" I used WrestleStat one year for my Preview Guide. It was good data, but it also didn't align fully with some things the qualification process needed. They've gotten so much better with their results over the years. Dan and Greg are great guys and work tirelessly because the sport needs it. They deserve and have earned our support and our consumer dollar. Sites like baseball-reference have paid staff. They have people that are paid for that work, which enables them to offer it, with their business model, free to a degree. Major college sports also have requirements for live stats, giving the NCAA a repository of live data that they sell that API to CBS, ESPN, Fox, all the sports sites. In college hockey, they also require live scoring, so sites like College Hockey Inc., USCHO, and CHN - sites similar in scope to what we have with Flo, InterMat, et al - pay for that API to display scores on their sites in near live time. Wrestling does not fully have that and the NCAA doesn't require it for wrestling, since their Genius/NCAA Live Stats software can't really get a good ROI on the R&D it would take for them to build that for wrestling and have enough paid schools to justify building it out. We have too many nuances - matches that don't count, team competitions, open competitions, invitational team-scored competitions. So many variables that aren't like team sports where it's "Team A vs. Team B" - go. I still hope for a day that we can have official results from an NCAA/NAIA/NJCAA sponsored repository, but until then, we'll have where it lives. I have my own results backend and historical backend. I don't market it. I put it places where I can quickly access it, but I also don't want the time I spent building those pages and formatting and organizing that data to be ripped off. I also pay the Pirate an annual 'license fee' to use the results he sends out and compiles on his own time, because that has value. So yes, I'm using someone else's compilation for things, but I'm also paying that person for the rights to use it. We don't have a sport that's flush with "money" in the business of wrestling, so when I say it kind of hurts to see people just bailing on WrestleStat because they simply want their time compensated, I say it from a position that I've been there before. When you're paid to do something, there's a degree of responsibility and ownership that comes with it. Someone who jumps in, does something cool for free, then fades away. A lot of sites have come and gone over the years, usually when people go to college, get married, have kids, get a new job that's not as flexible. I've thought about shuttering the Preview Guide because it gets constantly shared by one person who buys it and then gives it away to 40 other people since data is so readily available now, sending a 15MB file isn't painful anymore. If everyone who actually read the preview guide actually paid for it in the way they were supposed to, I know I'd have a lot more financial resources to make it better. Imagine how much better this sport could be if we did invest in the time people Dan and Greg at WrestleStat, rather than recoil in horror at someone wanting to be paid for the hours of time that thousands of people benefit from? Yes, this is preachy. Yes, this is judgmental to a degree, since I've literally lived through this scenario several times. It's why its important as a sport that we support ourselves with the places who spend the money to do things. Ripping off streams and posting them for free takes money away from our sport. The number of people who will claim "more eyes will see it" if its free don't realize that gratitude doesn't pay the bills. I'll get off my soapbox now and tell everyone to get off my lawn. Yours in wrestling, JB

Example A: An infant’s life is ended, without having the ability to experience life outside the womb or make any decisions for themselves, based on the decision of one maybe two people. Example B: A murder is committed. An investigation ensues. The investigation leads to an arrest. A trial ensues, where the arrested is able to see all the evidence against them, is able to defend him/herself against all accusers and argue all evidence. A public jury rules them guilty. Years of appeals of the case automatically ensue next. After those are all exhausted, the ten + year process culminates in the carrying out of the judicial ruling. If you’re trying to argue those two scenarios are comparable, it has nothing to do with stance on abortion or death penalty, it also has nothing to do with reason or logic. It’s simply someone starting a thread so they can bitch about people who believe something different.

PNL write up on Rokfin. Go ahead and take a look if interested. These are great events. I will put up another post Saturday evening and one Sunday as well. Some really good kids here at the event with some big potential matchups.

Hola Amigos. It's been a minute. I was told to come check out this thread. And man is it bonkers. Some of the takes on here are a little out there. Comparing the NFL and MLB, two sports with insane resources (does the NFL or FIFA have THE greatest resources in the sporting world?) to college wrestling is one of the silliest things I have every seen. I thoroughly enjoyed reading @Jason Bryant's history of this site, its predecessors, and his ventures. As someone else who has spent a shit-ton of time typing data into a database, I understand his stance and feel his pain. And the amount of work I have done pales in comparison to his - and to what @cowcards has done with his WrestlingGuru site. I started doing this when my nephews got into wrestling. Now that they are done I often wonder why I still do it. I wholly support what WrestleStat is doing. As a matter of fact, I have wondered what has taken them so long. They provide so much value to this community and by not charging they run the risk that is now realized - their work would be taken for granted and people would develop a sense of entitlement to it. There are some on here in whom that sense is strong. Yes, WrestleStat has competitors now with matsavant, making it a risky time to shift their business model. But a word of warning there. I have found a few errors in their historical data without even trying too hard. For many wrestlers, what the wrestler's school page says does not foot with what matsavant has. It makes me wonder what the source of their data is. There is no indication on the site about where they got their data. To spring up fully formed is a thing that makes you go hmmmm (if I squint I might convince myself that I see some of my DNA there). I look forward to them paywalling their data too. The ads on WrestleStat can drive you to distraction, but if you can handle this site you can handle pretty much anything. Now, with the pay version the ads will disappear. Halle-freakin-lujah. Well, have a good night. I need to log out here, log into WrestleStat, drop 40 bucks, and get back to my scotch. As I learned in central Europe this summer - Na zdrowie, egészségedre, prost, and na zdraví.

If you don't understand the difference between killing a bady and capital punishment you may he brain dead

PSU 125 Kuhn getting out to early lead over NATO in PSU/tOSU dual in 2018. Threw him iirc early. ‘Held on’ to only lose by major. Ended up being huge in that dual W for PSU. Think that was only match Kuhn ever wrestled for them.

I am cautiously optimistic

Great news! Hopefully they can sustain. Another opportunity in PA is a plus. If we could just get another one out in CA...and many other states.

Yes I know - his sons are awesome. And in @LJB's defense, I'd place his sons in the "more entertaining to watch" category.

You are giving him way too much credit. That guy doesn't resemble a basement dweller that lives on a wrestling forum and leeches off the teet of his wife.

Trying to put abortion and the death penalty on a comparable plane is beyond stupid. To answer the question, no I don’t think they should live steam it. Public execution isn’t our vibe.

I can't believe someone would compare this situation to abortion...yikes

Why is he still alive? I'd give the victims' families first option. Streaming is a bad idea.

Does it look like the Wisconsin commits are in a shopping buggy to anybody else?

RMU Announces Addition of NCAA Division I Men’s Wrestling Robert Morris University announced today that it will add NCAA Division I men’s wrestling as its newest varsity athletics program, creating new opportunities for student-athletes throughout Western Pennsylvania and across the country, while building on the region’s deep wrestling tradition. The RMU Wrestling Team is expected to begin competition in the 2027-28 academic year, with additional details regarding the program’s inaugural season, coaching staff, competition schedule, and home venue to be announced as plans are finalized. “Western Pennsylvania’s wrestling tradition has been built by generations of outstanding athletes, dedicated coaches, and passionate families,” said Dr. Ron Moses, Vice President and Director of Athletics at RMU. “Adding men’s wrestling at Robert Morris gives talented student-athletes another opportunity to compete at the Division I level close to home while earning an outstanding education. We want young wrestlers throughout this region, and beyond, to see a future for themselves at RMU, and we’re excited to build a competitive program that our campus, alumni, and wrestling community can rally around.” RMU’s location places the new wrestling program within a region where youth clubs, high school teams, and collegiate programs have long contributed to the sport’s success. The addition will strengthen the University’s connections with local wrestling communities while attracting student-athletes from across the country. Men’s wrestling will become RMU’s 20th sport, reflecting the University’s continued investment in Division I athletics and opportunities for student-athletes. The program’s conference affiliation will be announced once finalized. Prospective student-athletes, coaches and supporters can follow RMUColonials.com for program updates, including coaching announcements and future recruiting information.

What are some of those most memorable moments from wrestlers who would otherwise often go forgotten? Marco Vespa nearly putting Spencer Lee on his back with a cradle is one that comes to mind.

Joey Baker, Navy vs Nick Fanthorpe, ISU blood match for seventh place in 2008. Match took over a half hour with all the down time. Credit to Tony Rotundo

Never been as good as the Soviet Union? shocking… the countries that are sovereign now that were once a part of the Soviet Union account for quite the Greco medal count… Russian ran away with the team title in 2019… boogie bug in 2020… ”won” Olympic team title as ROC in 2021 and also team title at worlds in 2021… politics have since intervened… their age level success has been building for several years and they absolutely trounced everyone at U20 this year… Russia’s demise has been greatly over exaggerated…

True... Also the innocent children shouldn’t be killed... Also war is grim... Also the intended outcome of war is not "to kill children." The intended outcome of abortion is to kill the fetus.

... not anything wrong with that ...

If it’s to complicated for you to understand, you might try something like checkers, tiddlywinks.

Already added them to my spreadsheet for next year

It’s a bummer for the Hawkeyes if Braeden Davis is off the team. That was the only weight Iowa could get in the dual meet.

People ask how you can support capital punishment and oppose abortion. Pro-life is about protecting the innocent. I think a human has rights from the moment their *life begins, and ending that life on purpose is wrong. A murderer has already killed an innocent person and, by doing that, forfeits the same protection. The pro-life point of the penalty is to keep them from killing again. *To me, life begins at conception... To others, at birth or somewhere in between. This 'life begins' is off topic from understanding 'pro life' and not necessary to discuss here.

D3

That would be correct.

Princeton schedule is out; 9 left

I'm very unsurprised that nothing has come out of it. Whether justified or not - people are overly hopeful about bad things happening to both Braeden Davis and Penn State.

Never expected a serious response from such an inane statement. I suppose I should have put a smiley face... Edited to say: After 25 pages of piling on and running down I should know better.

To JB: A: don't quit the preview guide ... it's great reading material on the flight to NCAAs!

Not too advanced. She wants to be paid when she loses!

Yeoman's work...

He hates, "no hitters" and soccer too...

I'd rather know who the greatest worst wrestler is. I might have a shot at that one.

yeah it'd be like that time Matt Palmer whooped askren in high school and then showed the world nothing had changed when they hit in college.

So people on ventilators are not alive according to your logic. Life must end when it depends on medical miracles. How about people taking maintenance meds? Are they not alive either because their lives depend on chemicals? Lots of zombies walking around.

You already said that a baby that’s born can’t survive on its own. Is it ok to kill it at two months old????

I'm a 37-year-old dad with 4 kids, I have no desire (or time) to get bounced on my head lol

By my tracking the following 11 schools have yet to release their schedule: ACC Virginia Big 12 Big Ten Maryland (only put out the conference slate) EIWA Drexel LIU Sacred Heart Ivy Princeton MAC Central Michigan Pac 12 Cal Poly Northern Illinois Oregon St SoCon Presbyterian

Sam Howard Commits To Nebraska #2 at 215.

they created lol

i have never called for women to wear a hijab. i have never asked a woman to allow a man in her restroom or locker room i don't hate women. i have never told anyone to get in their relatives faces i repeatedly plead with the senate to recall judges who do not punish criminals but just keep releasing them

Hassan piker is a POS https://www.adl.org/resources/article/hasan-piker-what-you-need-know

I think you meant a COVID-19 infection injury. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38262150/

i was laughing at you being a dufus Ongoing Standoff: Sporadic localized skirmishes, anti-tank missile fire, and occasional cross-border attacks continue to occur despite cease-fire agreements, with Israel reporting periodic violations and taking counter-actions in Gaza. Facebook +1

I'm a shade and easy to ignore

I still rage and wage my little war

I still beat my head against the wall

Break the code, how happy I could be?