Easiest Path to the Podium at NCAAs

[fishbane]

In 1984 Rudy Isom lost his opening round match at 167lbs to Jeff Jelic 4-3 of Pitt 4-3.  He then won two consolations matches by FFT assuring himself of a top sure 8 finish.  He ended up winning his next match 1-0 to make the consi semis and then lost before falling to Relic for a second time to finish 6th.

Has anyone ever had an easier path to AA?  It would be wild if someone lost in the first round won twice by FFT then lost two consecutive matches to finish 8th.  Has anyone ever only won matches by FFT en route to an AA finish?  If so, what's the highest finish achieved in this manner?

1984 Bracket http://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/pdf/brackets/NCAA 1984.pdf

[Jason Bryant]

It's unlikely to have ever happened in the Division I tournament since the wrestlebacks fully expanded to include every first-round loser.

In 1984, there was still the follow-the-leader system that would look like a full international repechage, but where the entries got pulled back in if their opponent made the semifinals. 

I saw a kid in D3 (18 wrestlers in the bracket) get two medical forfeits on the backside to end up placing, but that 1984 thing was surely an anomaly given that two wrestlers got hurt on the front side in that quarterbracket where Isom came back through, including Melvin Douglas. 

[nhs67]

Didn't Wyatt Sheets have a decently easy path to AA when he was the 33 seed?

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Didn't Wyatt Sheets have a decently easy path to AA when he was the 33 seed?

He only received 1 forfeit.  W Dec (32), L Dec (1), W Dec (16), W Dec (18), W Dec (26), W FFT (12), L MD (11), L Dec (5) to finish 8th.  16 was the highest seed he beat via non-FFT to make the podium.  Still he won 4 matches to get there.  

As JB pointed out, two forfeits with no wins getting you to the podium is not possible since full wrestlebacks were implemented in the early 1990s.   In today's format you would need to somehow get 4 consecutive forfeits in the consolations to get to the podium without winning a match.  I guess on the front side it would take only 3 but that would require someone to enter the tournament injured and not wrestle which has happened (Nick Suriano, Dustin Schlatter, etc.) but less likely than a forfeit in a later round.

Edited June 8, 2023 by fishbane

[Lunaticfringe]

1981, 134 lbs was a ever bigger $hitshow. As big of one as possible. Clar Anderson of Auburn st the time makes the semis. Apparently all his previous opponents thought he would lose in the semis for sure as they all missed weight on the backside to give a injured Randy Lewis a forfeit in the 7th place match.

 

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/pdf/brackets/NCAA 1981.pdf

 

[Husker_Du]

i love this stories.

fishbane - that's crazy. he AA'd with a 4-4 scoring differential!

LF - i didn't realize Anderson wrestled at Auburn. i'm i crazy, or did he not wrestle for OKST? 

[gimpeltf]

i love this stories.
fishbane - that's crazy. he AA'd with a 4-4 scoring differential!
LF - i didn't realize Anderson wrestled at Auburn. i'm i crazy, or did he not wrestle for OKST? 

Whether you're crazy is irrelevant to this discussion. But he wrestled for both

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Jason Bryant]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

i love this stories.

fishbane - that's crazy. he AA'd with a 4-4 scoring differential!

LF - i didn't realize Anderson wrestled at Auburn. i'm i crazy, or did he not wrestle for OKST? 

Clar transferred when Auburn dropped the program. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

In 1929 Oklahoma State's 115 pounder, Dell Shockley, entered a three man bracket, got a first round bye (yep, he got a bye to the final), then lost in the final and the true second match. 0-2 BBQ, but still an All-American.

I can find no record of Dell Shockley before or after 1929.

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, Lunaticfringe said:

1981, 134 lbs was a ever bigger $hitshow. As big of one as possible. Clar Anderson of Auburn st the time makes the semis. Apparently all his previous opponents thought he would lose in the semis for sure as they all missed weight on the backside to give a injured Randy Lewis a forfeit in the 7th place match.

 

http://www.wrestlingstats.com/ncaa/pdf/brackets/NCAA 1981.pdf

 

I have been wondering about that bracket and why there was no 8th place. Thanks for clearing that up.

[D3 for LU]

7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

In 1929 Oklahoma State's 115 pounder, Dell Shockley, entered a three man bracket, got a first round bye (yep, he got a bye to the final), then lost in the final and the true second match. 0-2 BBQ, but still an All-American.

I can find no record of Dell Shockley before or after 1929.

 

Shockley's 2 & BBQ to AA status is...

 

 

 

 

... simply shocking!

D3

Edited June 9, 2023 by D3 for LU

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Clar transferred when Auburn dropped the program. 

The pride of Olean, NY... along with PSU great Jeff Prescott.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 hours ago, fishbane said:

He only received 1 forfeit.  W Dec (32), L Dec (1), W Dec (16), W Dec (18), W Dec (26), W FFT (12), L MD (11), L Dec (5) to finish 8th.  16 was the highest seed he beat via non-FFT to make the podium.  Still he won 4 matches to get there.  

As JB pointed out, two forfeits with no wins getting you to the podium is not possible since full wrestlebacks were implemented in the early 1990s.   In today's format you would need to somehow get 4 consecutive forfeits in the consolations to get to the podium without winning a match.  I guess on the front side it would take only 3 but that would require someone to enter the tournament injured and not wrestle which has happened (Nick Suriano, Dustin Schlatter, etc.) but less likely than a forfeit in a later round.

This seems to happen more for Nicky Forfeits than the average wrestler!

[DJT]

15 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

fishbane - that's crazy. he AA'd with a 4-4 scoring differential!

Hillger took 8th this year with a 6-7 total score, with only two of his points being offensive (OT takedown).

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, DJT said:

Hillger took 8th this year with a 6-7 total score, with only two of his points being offensive (OT takedown).

[bnwtwg]

2 hours ago, DJT said:

Hillger took 8th this year with a 6-7 total score, with only two of his points being offensive (OT takedown).

Yeah but look at his matches as the 11 seed. He outperformed despite the low offensive output, and kept his losses close as well. Every match, even Kerk, was one move away from a win no matter the likelihood during the course of each match.

First round: 22 seed Catka: 2-0 WIN

Second round: 6 seed /R12 Slava: 1-0 WIN

Quarters Kerkvliet 2 seed/finalist: 0-4 LOSS

Blood round: 8 seed Schuyler: 3-1 SV WIN

Consi quarters: 10 seed Elam/6th : 0-2 LOSS

8th place: inj.def 0:01

 

 

[DJT]

33 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Yeah but look at his matches as the 11 seed. He outperformed despite the low offensive output, and kept his losses close as well. Every match, even Kerk, was one move away from a win no matter the likelihood during the course of each match.

First round: 22 seed Catka: 2-0 WIN

Second round: 6 seed /R12 Slava: 1-0 WIN

Quarters Kerkvliet 2 seed/finalist: 0-4 LOSS

Blood round: 8 seed Schuyler: 3-1 SV WIN

Consi quarters: 10 seed Elam/6th : 0-2 LOSS

8th place: inj.def 0:01

 

 

Wasn’t saying it was an easy path… just strange scoring. Kerk might’ve had the only offensive points against him.

[fishbane]

19 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

fishbane - that's crazy. he AA'd with a 4-4 scoring differential!

 It was worse than that. He was 3-3 for the tournament with 2 forfeits and a 6th place finish.  His overall scoring differential was -4 (8-12).  

1st round L Dec 4-3 Jelic (Pitt)

1st round consolations W FFT Degenova (Temple)

R12 W FFT Douglas (OU) - AA Finish Assured

Consi-Semis 1 W Dec 1-0 Williams (Utah State)

Consi-Semis 2 L Dec 4-2 Carver (Fresno State) 

5th Place Match L Dec 4-2 Relic (Pitt)

 

55 minutes ago, DJT said:

Wasn’t saying it was an easy path… just strange scoring. Kerk might’ve had the only offensive points against him.

I don't think a negative scoring differential for an AA is really that unusual.  I mean it's not typical, but it probably happens to a couple guys each year.  All you really need is a guy to get his doors blown off by a Spencer Lee/David Taylor/Zain Retherford type and win several close matches.  Getting an AA placement without winning a match by anything other than FFT?  That has to be very unusual.  Maybe a handful of times in history.

Drew Hildebrandt had a negative scoring differential when he placed 4th in 2019.  W Dec 3-0, W Dec 2-1, W Dec 4-2 (SV), L MD 11-0 (Spencer Lee), W Dec 5-4, L Dec 5-3.  Overall that is 17-21 for -4 differential over a 4-2 record with a 4th place finish.  

[DJT]

10 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I don't think a negative scoring differential for an AA is really that unusual.  

I’m sure it’s not uncommon at all… but 13 total points/ 4 total points of offense in ~36 minutes of wrestling stands out as peculiar, even at heavyweight… average match score (not including the default) 1.2-1.4.

[ionel]

Let's not count OT score, cause that really about just breaking the tie, what's the lowest point total to a NC since say mid 60s?  I have a good guess but will wait for Wkn to provide the top 10 table.

[Antitroll2828]

Jason Tsirtsis had a unique path to AA , went 4-2 en route to a 7th place finish with a point differential of -1 

1st Rd- W 2-1 Tie breaker 1 over Dane Robbins (Air Force)

2nd Rd- W 4-3 over Ryan Deakin (Northwestern)

quarters- L 7-4 Ronnie Perry (Lock Haven)

Blood Rd- W 4-3 over Jared Degan ( Iowa State)

Coni Quarters- L 3-1 Grant Leeth (Missouri)

7th Place W 2-1 over Boo Lewallen ( Ok.State) 

total number of points for- 17

total number of points against 18 

 

Tsirtsis also only scored 15 total points in 5 Wins combined on his way to winning the title in 2014 allowing only 7 points in the process , James English is the only person to score offensive points and more than 1 against him (3) 

6 hours ago, DJT said:

Hillger took 8th this year with a 6-7 total score, with only two of his points being offensive (OT takedown).

 

[fishbane]

16 hours ago, DJT said:

I’m sure it’s not uncommon at all… but 13 total points/ 4 total points of offense in ~36 minutes of wrestling stands out as peculiar, even at heavyweight… average match score (not including the default) 1.2-1.4.

He did a lot with a little.  Three wins on only 6 points scored and shut out in 3 losses.  He didn't bother scoring if he wasn't going to win the match.  It's wise to be efficient in a multi day tournament like this.

Compare this with that 167lb bracket from 1984.  I have doubts that Melvin Douglas was actually injured.  I think he probably just blew his load in that first round match that he won 35-0.  It was the most points put up by a wrestler in a match in the entire tournament.  Wore himself out by the quarterfinal round.  Hilger on the other hand wasn't going to waste any energy scoring points that weren't going to win him a match.

[Idaho]

I-84. 

[DJT]

5 hours ago, fishbane said:

He did a lot with a little.  Three wins on only 6 points scored and shut out in 3 losses.  He didn't bother scoring if he wasn't going to win the match.  It's wise to be efficient in a multi day tournament like this.

Compare this with that 167lb bracket from 1984.  I have doubts that Melvin Douglas was actually injured.  I think he probably just blew his load in that first round match that he won 35-0.  It was the most points put up by a wrestler in a match in the entire tournament.  Wore himself out by the quarterfinal round.  Hilger on the other hand wasn't going to waste any energy scoring points that weren't going to win him a match.

That’s one way to look at it

[TexRef]

On 6/8/2023 at 11:36 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

In 1929 Oklahoma State's 115 pounder, Dell Shockley, entered a three man bracket, got a first round bye (yep, he got a bye to the final), then lost in the final and the true second match. 0-2 BBQ, but still an All-American.

I can find no record of Dell Shockley before or after 1929.

In 1929 wasn't it still Oklahoma A&M?