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Apparently Repechage is French for stupid


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Thanks to all who participated and contributed in this thread.  Nerdy, a bit cultish, and hints of "number of angels on a pinhead" type discussion to anyone outside of this community.  And completely enjoyable.  

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True Double Elimination tournament solves the problem.

Also solved the frustration of those who travel thousands of miles to compete and only get one match.

At the very least all would be assured to two chanced to place, barring injury or pulling out somehow.

Better yet would be a Double Elimination tournament with each team allowed two wrestlers per weight.

 

” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”.

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I was away on vacation so couldn't comment, but here's my two cents.

Double elimination is the way to go.

The way bronze was determined after double elimination was eliminated was to take the losers of the semi finals and make them go at it, winner was Bronze.   A horrible way to do business.   It was the worst.

With the current system, at least if you lost to a finalist, that means you may be third best or second best if the the finalist from the other side is worse than you.   But at least you may be third best.   So the current repechage recognizes that and you can go and prove it.   Much better than previous.

I'm not for 2 Bronze's but what we have now is much better than what FILA imposed before they were booted.  

Just saying.

mspart

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1 hour ago, mspart said:

I was away on vacation so couldn't comment, but here's my two cents.

Double elimination is the way to go.

The way bronze was determined after double elimination was eliminated was to take the losers of the semi finals and make them go at it, winner was Bronze.   A horrible way to do business.   It was the worst.

With the current system, at least if you lost to a finalist, that means you may be third best or second best if the the finalist from the other side is worse than you.   But at least you may be third best.   So the current repechage recognizes that and you can go and prove it.   Much better than previous.

I'm not for 2 Bronze's but what we have now is much better than what FILA imposed before they were booted.  

Just saying.

mspart

My issue is that, at least in men's freestyle, no one proved it. Across the 10 weights there were 16 wrestlers who went 0-1 and made it to the repechage. Those 16 wrestlers went 8-8 in repechage, with 0 making it to the third place matches. 

Eight of them finished 1-2 overall and eight of them finished 0-2 overall.

Granted, this is a small sample size, but when not a single wrestler who busts out of the championship bracket without a win is able to make the third place match by winning two matches in repechage, you have a pretty good indication that anyone who goes 0-1 in the championship bracket is probably not third best.

At least in this case, all of the 3-1 quarterfinalists (and probably the 2-1 quarterfinalists) were highly likely to be better than the 0-1 wrestlers.

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32 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

My issue is that, at least in men's freestyle, no one proved it. Across the 10 weights there were 16 wrestlers who went 0-1 and made it to the repechage. Those 16 wrestlers went 8-8 in repechage, with 0 making it to the third place matches. 

Eight of them finished 1-2 overall and eight of them finished 0-2 overall.

Granted, this is a small sample size, but when not a single wrestler who busts out of the championship bracket without a win is able to make the third place match by winning two matches in repechage, you have a pretty good indication that anyone who goes 0-1 in the championship bracket is probably not third best.

At least in this case, all of the 3-1 quarterfinalists (and probably the 2-1 quarterfinalists) were highly likely to be better than the 0-1 wrestlers.

The two best guys meeting in the first round has essentially been eliminated by seeding, although that process is still contingent upon wrestlers completing in some level of ranking series or continental championship. The odds of a world champ just peacing out and coming back after two years to hit the #1 seed is pretty slim. 

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1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

My issue is that, at least in men's freestyle, no one proved it. Across the 10 weights there were 16 wrestlers who went 0-1 and made it to the repechage. Those 16 wrestlers went 8-8 in repechage, with 0 making it to the third place matches. 

Eight of them finished 1-2 overall and eight of them finished 0-2 overall.

Granted, this is a small sample size, but when not a single wrestler who busts out of the championship bracket without a win is able to make the third place match by winning two matches in repechage, you have a pretty good indication that anyone who goes 0-1 in the championship bracket is probably not third best.

At least in this case, all of the 3-1 quarterfinalists (and probably the 2-1 quarterfinalists) were highly likely to be better than the 0-1 wrestlers.

The logic being used to select the repechage wrestlers isn't that they proved anything, but rather that it has been proven that there are at least two wrestlers better than the wrestlers not in the repechage - the wrestler they lost to and whoever ultimately defeated that guy.  The repechage does a not awful job at determining the second best wrestler in that half off the bracket or at least that's the logic 

The guy who loses in the first round to the finalist does get a free pass to the repechage, but he also has to wrestle 1-2 matches whilst the semi-final loser is waiting - its not easy, so that may help account for the poor record. However in a way making him wrestling 2-3 matches in a row balances the fact that he only wrestled 1 and the semifinal loser wrestled 2-3 the day before.  They all need to win the same number of matches too finish 3rd.  Probably the fact that they now seed the wrestlers is a bigger factor.

Yazdani's repechage performance in 2018 was pretty remarkable.  After losing to Taylor in the first round he won three straight matches beating Taylors opponents by a wider margin that Taylor did to finish 3rd.

It is far better than most other olympic combat sports which just give bronze medals to the semifinalists

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We really shouldn't make fun of the French this way.

Their school system emphasizes bi-lingual training from pre-school and up.

They spend a lot time on language skills - teaching all the kids to say "I surrender" in German.

” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”.

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20 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

We really shouldn't make fun of the French this way.

Their school system emphasizes bi-lingual training from pre-school and up.

They spend a lot time on language skills - teaching all the kids to say "I surrender" in German.

You will appreciate this:

https://www.theonion.com/september-3-1939-1819587663

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On 10/1/2023 at 7:09 PM, AgaveMaria said:

True Double Elimination tournament solves the problem.

Also solved the frustration of those who travel thousands of miles to compete and only get one match.

At the very least all would be assured to two chanced to place, barring injury or pulling out somehow.

Better yet would be a Double Elimination tournament with each team allowed two wrestlers per weight.

 

This! I can’t believe we get u17, u20 and u23 kids to fund raise in their hometown so that family members can travel to Boku or some other joint to see their kid wrestle six minutes and go home. At the very least there should be separate exhibitions in which these youngsters get to wrestle two or three other international kids before being summarily dismissed from their lifelong dream.  I can’t believe someone, anyone couldn’t come up with a better way of making the most of this possibly once in a lifetime opportunity for these kids. It is like telling someone that they won a trip to Paris, giving them a glass of wine at de Gaulle and then  sending them back to JFK!  What an absolute waste of an opportunity to train tomorrow’s World Team members.

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This! I can’t believe we get u17, u20 and u23 kids to fund raise in their hometown so that family members can travel to Boku or some other joint to see their kid wrestle six minutes and go home. At the very least there should be separate exhibitions in which these youngsters get to wrestle two or three other international kids before being summarily dismissed from their lifelong dream.  I can’t believe someone, anyone couldn’t come up with a better way of making the most of this possibly once in a lifetime opportunity for these kids. It is like telling someone that they won a trip to Paris, giving them a glass of wine at de Gaulle and then  sending them back to JFK!  What an absolute waste of an opportunity to train tomorrow’s World Team members.

It’s a World Championship, not a madison-system rookie tournament. You know what you’re signing up for when you do this …

Training takes place in the practice room - putting that training to use is the competition. You go 0-1? Train more.
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37 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:


It’s a World Championship, not a madison-system rookie tournament. You know what you’re signing up for when you do this …

Training takes place in the practice room - putting that training to use is the competition. You go 0-1? Train more.

You are going to hurt someone's fee-fees with this kind of blue collar attitude

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13 hours ago, Ched64 said:

This! I can’t believe we get u17, u20 and u23 kids to fund raise in their hometown so that family members can travel to Boku or some other joint to see their kid wrestle six minutes and go home. At the very least there should be separate exhibitions in which these youngsters get to wrestle two or three other international kids before being summarily dismissed from their lifelong dream.  I can’t believe someone, anyone couldn’t come up with a better way of making the most of this possibly once in a lifetime opportunity for these kids. It is like telling someone that they won a trip to Paris, giving them a glass of wine at de Gaulle and then  sending them back to JFK!  What an absolute waste of an opportunity to train tomorrow’s World Team members.

JB already hit the nail on the head but I am going to add to it...

Every single time I have gone to any major tournament, domestic or international, for myself, family, friends, etc... we don't only go over to wrestle.  That is the reason we are there, yes... we also go to experience the culture.  I have made connections worldwide I never would have had I not traveled overseas - both personal and professional - that I still have today.

Thinking that the experience is just one match when you go 0-1 is truly very ignorant and shows that you have neither been a part of a national team, traveled overseas specifically for wrestling, or that you even know anybody that meets either of those criteria.

Stay in your lane.

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"I know actually nothing.  It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me

 

 

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10 hours ago, nhs67 said:

JB already hit the nail on the head but I am going to add to it...

Every single time I have gone to any major tournament, domestic or international, for myself, family, friends, etc... we don't only go over to wrestle.  That is the reason we are there, yes... we also go to experience the culture.  I have made connections worldwide I never would have had I not traveled overseas - both personal and professional - that I still have today.

Thinking that the experience is just one match when you go 0-1 is truly very ignorant and shows that you have neither been a part of a national team, traveled overseas specifically for wrestling, or that you even know anybody that meets either of those criteria.

Stay in your lane.

Sorry NHS…didn’t realize this was forum for only former world team members…gotcha…but sending a bunch of fifteen year olds across the globe to have nearly half of them go 0-1 seems like a missed opportunity for the growth of the sport in my unwanted opinion.

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7 minutes ago, Ched64 said:

Sorry NHS…didn’t realize this was forum for only former world team members…gotcha…

Never said that.  Don't be stupid.

8 minutes ago, Ched64 said:

…but sending a bunch of fifteen year olds across the globe to have nearly half of them go 0-1 seems like a missed opportunity for the growth of the sport in my unwanted opinion.

You can choose to ignore everything I said of you wish.  It only makes you look even more stupid.

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"I know actually nothing.  It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me

 

 

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Never said that.  Don't be stupid.

You can choose to ignore everything I said of you wish.  It only makes you look even more stupid.

I am sure it was a great experience but not sure why you are going so harsh…I do know multiple guys who have wrestled on world teams…my only point is that you have a bunch of kids overseas and nearly half of them leave at 0-1.  Not sure where the aggression comes from but my only point was why not have them wrestle the other kids who are there and give them a feel for different techniques.  And you said to stay in my lane thus closing any discussion of the topic in your mind.  I am glad you had a good experience…did you go 0-1?  Not sure what got your back up by my completely benign suggestion.

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25 minutes ago, Ched64 said:

Not sure what got your back up by my completely benign suggestion.

He's a teddy bear.  

 

2 hours ago, Ched64 said:

Sorry NHS…didn’t realize this was forum for only former world team members…gotcha…

Sometimes you have to read the room for a bit to get a feel for the occupants. If he didn't call you a, "turdbiscuit" it's all good. ✌️

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37 minutes ago, Ched64 said:

I am sure it was a great experience but not sure why you are going so harsh…I do know multiple guys who have wrestled on world teams…my only point is that you have a bunch of kids overseas and nearly half of them leave at 0-1.  Not sure where the aggression comes from but my only point was why not have them wrestle the other kids who are there and give them a feel for different techniques.  And you said to stay in my lane thus closing any discussion of the topic in your mind.  I am glad you had a good experience…did you go 0-1?  Not sure what got your back up by my completely benign suggestion.

No you don’t. If you did then you would understand.

i am an idiot on the internet

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I have read the forums for years…I actually enjoy his interplay on many occasions.  i don’t comment often but when I do it is generally on improving the sport and the business of the sport.  It needs all the help it can get.  My biggest complaint is olympic vs non olympic weights (or tweener guys). in my opinion, they should all be tweener guys either moving up or down for a completely different set of weights for the olympics.  It ruins the NO’s for what constitutes 75% of the years.  But the kids I see at these tournaments don’t always have the dough to get to the big tournaments let alone travel overseas…and thats just in the US…think about the reps from africa or south america. 1 and done just seems like a tough outcome.  Let me state clearly I am not a give a ribbon guy by any means…I have coached wrestling for years but it seems like a squandered opportunity to bring all these kids together for one real match.  Remember, this was a thread on repechage and its shortcomings. on top of that all the first round losers except 2 go home with just one match under their belt.  These are still kids growing and learning. You will notice I never mentioned Seniors.  I have coached at NHSCA’s multiple times.  There are something like 80 Mats and everyone gets two matches minimum.  Are you telling me UWW couldn’t do a better job of this?  It demeans the achievement of the kids who qualified from their respective countries in my opinion and has a negative effect on bringing outsiders in to the sport. Lastly, I think one of the greatest achievements in the NCAAs is a guy losing in the first or second round and coming back and landing on the podium. Winning in repechage doesnt compare.

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