Nelson Brands tweets details on why his NCAA career is over

[manatree]

7 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

we all know that as a family member of the coaches and someone who has been around college wrestling for pretty much all his life, he should have known better.

He did know better. The only way he could not have known is if he, his father, and his uncle were all complete morans. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by manatree

[ionel]

22 minutes ago, manatree said:

He did know better. The only way he could not have known is if he, his father, and his uncle were all complete morans. 

ahh ... well ... hmm

[VakAttack]

4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

Vak, you're a lawyer. wtf are you talking about.

it's not legal 

1) underage

2) with an alias

and 

3) the NCAA has it's own guidance/stipulations

I'm not aware of 1 and 2 being reported anywhere.  As to 3, I've already addressed that.  Yes, it's the rule, but there's zero reason for it to exist.

7 hours ago, 1032004 said:

At the very least, most people seem to agree that betting on other teams at your university is a no-no due to the likelihood of getting insider information.

Again, for no reason. For example, other students at Iowa or Iowa State, even say a football player's girlfriend, would be free and clear to make bets on the respective football teams with the same or better access to that inside information.  Finding information to find bad lines is how truly successful sports bettors succeed.

5 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I don't think inside information is applicable here. Most people think inside information in the US is about fairness, but it is actually about theft. Using information that does not belong to you to profit in capital markets is the crime. The idea is that it harms capital formation if it is allowed to happen. And capital formation is valuable to an economy.

I do not think that applies in any way to betting markets which are not viewed as having a similar importance. I am not aware of any laws that disallow betting based on an information advantage. As a matter of fact it is legal in some jurisdictions to "cheat" at casino games. But it is also legal for casinos to ban you if they think you are doing things like counting cards.

[Dark Energy]

Gambling has the extreme potential to warp incentives for players and coaches due to the close nature of the sports community at colleges.  This in turn threatens the trust that fans have that incentives will not be warped into throwing games or throwing scoring attempts or whatever else can be get bet on.  Harming that trust threatens reductions in fan base and alumni support as well as negatively impacting school reputation / branding.

In addition, I’d like to think that colleges still care, a little, about good character development.  Creating an environment that breeds collusion / corruption goes against that goal.

Thus the rules.  I agree with them and their severity.  The rules are extremely easy to abide by.  
 

[1032004]

7 hours ago, VakAttack said:

 

Again, for no reason. For example, other students at Iowa or Iowa State, even say a football player's girlfriend, would be free and clear to make bets on the respective football teams with the same or better access to that inside information.  Finding information to find bad lines is how truly successful sports bettors succeed.

The girlfriend may not get in trouble, but the player could/would.

Here’s a 6 minute video that Nelson should have watched in light of missing the meeting.  At 2:45, it talks about players sharing “non-public information.”

 

Not saying Nelson got any “non-public information,” but it seems logical to try to prevent that in general, especially if the question is why “should” it be a rule.   The NFL for example has similar rules regarding non-public information - https://www.profootballnetwork.com/nfl-gambling-policy/

[alex1fly]

If there’s regular compliance trainings then that means there are people on campus familiar with the rules and could have steered these kids towards not getting banned with a 5 minute conversation or an email or a “don’t do this!” poster on the wall, HR style. It’s maybe a harsh punishment, I don’t know, but also seems so preventable. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by alex1fly

[1032004]

Wrong thread

Edited September 24, 2023 by 1032004

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

A lot of angry Iowa fans on here who have an issue NOT with the fact that an Iowa athlete knowingly broke the rules, but with the fact that the rules exist, or that other schools weren't busted as well...hmmm...

 

It seems your anger is misplaced...

Edited September 24, 2023 by Jimmy Cinnabon

[wrestlingshoe]

Don't think I'd want Vac's legal advice... "I think your innocent because the law is stupid."

[1032004]

7 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said:

Don't think I'd want Vac's legal advice... "I think your innocent because the law is stupid."

Normally Vak is pretty unbiased…but the black and gold glasses definitely showing a bit here

[Ban Basketball]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

A lot of angry Iowa fans on here who have an issue NOT with the fact that an Iowa athlete knowingly broke the rules, but with the fact that the rules exist, or that other schools weren't busted as well...hmmm...

 

It seems your anger is misplaced...

Yes,  us Iowans have seemed to develop an affinity for looking the other way with criminals. 

[fishbane]

11 hours ago, VakAttack said:

I'm not aware of 1 and 2 being reported anywhere.  As to 3, I've already addressed that.  Yes, it's the rule, but there's zero reason for it to exist.

Again, for no reason. For example, other students at Iowa or Iowa State, even say a football player's girlfriend, would be free and clear to make bets on the respective football teams with the same or better access to that inside information.  Finding information to find bad lines is how truly successful sports bettors succeed.

Zero reason?  That’s clearly not true.  Many reasons have been given you have either ignored them or disagree with them.

A football player’s girlfriend wouldn’t have the same access to team facilities as another athlete.  She also isn’t representing the athletic department the same was as an employee/athlete.  This is similar to a normal student.  

If the basketball team is betting against the football team it could cause the public to question if the team is trying to win or whether there are shenanigans afoot.  It definitely reflects poorly on the athletic department.  If there is no fixing or inside information involved and the basketball team just thinks the football team is bad, it is still negative for the university.  It casts a shadow on the efforts of the football team and their integrity when they did nothing wrong and are simply not that good at football.

You could spoint out that a handful of football players girlfriends betting against the team could do the same thing.  I would agree that is true and the school/NCAA should investigate.  I would also say that if a football player has a girlfriend that is betting against his team he should dump her.  Just like the school should dump athletes that wager on their school.

We have seen some unusual behavior spurred on by sports betting since it became widespread.  This year there was a fan who yelled out during Mardy Fish’s backswing because he had bet on Steph Curry to win.  Fans with a betting interest have done this multiple times in professional golf tournaments this year.  I think it not wanting anyone within the athletic department to have a financial interest in football team losing is a compelling reason to ban betting on the schools sports or any NCAA sport sponsored by the school, because you dont want to incentivize bad behavior.

To me there is no reason to allow it.  The NCAA certainly has the right to ban conduct that, whilst not illegal, could negatively affect the institution and allowing athletes and athletic department staff to wager on their own school has no upside.  None at all.  It can only bring disrepute and cause the public to question whether the integrity of the game is being upheld.

[Husker_Du]

18 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I think Brands was 23 when he started gambling and I do not recall anyone claiming he used alias.

now do item 3

[Husker_Du]

17 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Bro... ever hear of context?

I was responding to a dude who said PSU wrestlers would never be involved with gambling because it is a sin. I brought up Nickal, and have said elsewhere in this thread that I don't have an issue with it. Nor do I have an issue with the punishment.

Thank you in advance for your apology, sir!

the scenario you described is legal.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

now do item 3

You weren't wrong about 3, just 1 and 2. Now do the part where you admit that.

And 1 and 2 are categorically different than 3.

No one disputes that the rule against gambling exists. No one thinks that Nelson Brands is not guilty of breaking NCAA rules.

I do think the NCAA penalty is too harsh. That is partially because I think the NCAA is conflicted and hypocritical on this issue.

I do not think this is directly about the purity of sport as they would have you believe. I do think this is about the long term, existential threat to TV rights contracts if the NCAA is perceived to not be tough on gambling.

[billyhoyle]

15 hours ago, manatree said:

He did know better. The only way he could not have known is if he, his father, and his uncle were all complete morans. 

If Nelson Brands is being honest in his tweet, and I have no reason to think he isn’t, he was completely failed by the Iowa coaches and compliance staff. Yes, he is ultimately responsible, but it’s the job of the coaches and admin to make these consequences crystal clear to all of the athletes. Why would he tweet something that makes his family and their coworkers look so bad unless he is being honest?

[billyhoyle]

11 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

You weren't wrong about 3, just 1 and 2. Now do the part where you admit that.

And 1 and 2 are categorically different than 3.

No one disputes that the rule against gambling exists. No one thinks that Nelson Brands is not guilty of breaking NCAA rules.

I do think the NCAA penalty is too harsh. That is partially because I think the NCAA is conflicted and hypocritical on this issue.

I do not think this is directly about the purity of sport as they would have you believe. I do think this is about the long term, existential threat to TV rights contracts if the NCAA is perceived to not be tough on gambling.

The rule against athletes gambling has existed for a very long time-nothing hypocritical about it. What do you expect to happen when you place a bet on your own school? 

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

The rule against athletes gambling has existed for a very long time-nothing hypocritical about it. What do you expect to happen when you place a bet on your own school? 

Length of time for the rule has nothing to do with anything I said.

What I expect is prosecutorial discretion. Which, by the way, is exactly what the NCAA did in this instance. I just disagree with what they chose as the punishment for what is parallel to a moving violation in my opinion.

But make no mistake that the punishment portion of the rule is brand new and it was decided upon AFTER the NCAA was alerted to this investigation and then made retroactive to BEFORE they knew certain violations had occured. The NCAA is absolutely conflicted (there are billions involved for them and their member institutioms) and hypocritical (they decided the punishment after they knew the crime, but pretend it is otherwise while also pretending it is not about the money).

Edited September 24, 2023 by Wrestleknownothing

[VakAttack]

4 hours ago, wrestlingshoe said:

Don't think I'd want Vac's legal advice... "I think your innocent because the law is stupid."

Who said he's innocent? 

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

Sure, I hate Iowa.

If Iowa was drowning in a lake, I would shoot it. I also don't care for Nelson Brands because he beat Edmond Ruth in the blood round. With that bit of transparency out of the way, I would ask the posters on this board to think of the Mount Rushmore of sports scandals. 

On my Mount Rushmore, two of the spaces are taken up by gambling, Pete Rose and the Black Sox. Then, I would have the SMU football death penalty and the steroid era in baseball (McGwire, Sosa, Bonds). I want to squeeze in Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan because that was silly and disgusting and creepy all at the same time. Plus, we ended up getting an x-rated video out of it! 

The point is that I hate Iowa, and the point is that gambling and sports don't mix. 

 

[billyhoyle]

58 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Length of time for the rule has nothing to do with anything I said.

What I expect is prosecutorial discretion. Which, by the way, is exactly what the NCAA did in this instance. I just disagree with what they chose as the punishment for what is parallel to a moving violation in my opinion.

But make no mistake that the punishment portion of the rule is brand new and it was decided upon AFTER the NCAA was alerted to this investigation and then made retroactive to BEFORE they knew certain violations had occured. The NCAA is absolutely conflicted (there are billions involved for them and their member institutioms) and hypocritical (they decided the punishment after they knew the crime, but pretend it is otherwise while also pretending it is not about the money).

So you don’t want them to enforce the gambling rule because you don’t like it even though almost every university (with the exception of Iowa I guess) emphasizes to its athletes just how severe an infraction it is to gamble?

 

I don’t understand how anyone competing at the NCAA level would even think for a second it’s ok to gamble, let alone on your own school. Somehow, this was not the case at Iowa and Iowa state. 

[1032004]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Length of time for the rule has nothing to do with anything I said.

What I expect is prosecutorial discretion. Which, by the way, is exactly what the NCAA did in this instance. I just disagree with what they chose as the punishment for what is parallel to a moving violation in my opinion.

But make no mistake that the punishment portion of the rule is brand new and it was decided upon AFTER the NCAA was alerted to this investigation and then made retroactive to BEFORE they knew certain violations had occured. The NCAA is absolutely conflicted (there are billions involved for them and their member institutioms) and hypocritical (they decided the punishment after they knew the crime, but pretend it is otherwise while also pretending it is not about the money).

Playing fantasy football or entering a super bowl squares pool would be parallel to a moving violation.  Heck maybe even betting on the NFL.

Not placing bets on your own university.

[Wrestleknownothing]

44 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

gambling and sports don't mix. 

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/20/business/caesars-sports-betting-universities-colleges.html

It seems there are a number of universities that disagree with you.

"After Louisiana State University signed a similar deal in 2021 with Caesars, the university sent an email encouraging recipients — including some students who were under 21 and couldn’t legally gamble — to “place your first bet (and earn your first bonus).”

"So far, at least eight universities have become partners with online sports-betting companies, or sportsbooks, many in the last year, with more expected."

"In addition, at least a dozen athletic departments and booster clubs have signed agreements with brick-and-mortar casinos."

It's not about the money.

It's about the f'n money.

 

[billyhoyle]

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/20/business/caesars-sports-betting-universities-colleges.html

It seems there are a number of universities that disagree with you.

"After Louisiana State University signed a similar deal in 2021 with Caesars, the university sent an email encouraging recipients — including some students who were under 21 and couldn’t legally gamble — to “place your first bet (and earn your first bonus).”

"So far, at least eight universities have become partners with online sports-betting companies, or sportsbooks, many in the last year, with more expected."

"In addition, at least a dozen athletic departments and booster clubs have signed agreements with brick-and-mortar casinos."

It's not about the money.

It's about the f'n money.

 

So what? The athletes can’t gamble or legalized sports betting falls apart. Iowa schools have made that clear to its athletes. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 minute ago, billyhoyle said:

So what? The athletes can’t gamble or legalized sports betting falls apart. Iowa schools have made that clear to its athletes. 

I get it. Do as we say, not as we do.

There is nothing you can say to convince me that the NCAA has any moral authority to take a season of eligibility from someone who gambled with $195 and his winnings on $195. It is not the right punishment for breaking the rule in the way he did.

If they were worried about him being led down a wayward path over $195 they would not be standing silently by while their member institutions signed deals with gambling sites and casinos to recruit kids on campus to become gamblers.

It is like a bunch of posters on here have Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to the NCAA.