Aaron Brooks wrestle-off

[bl177]

Because Aaron Brooks beat Zahid Valencia at the US Open, he should have been allowed a special wrestle-off against Valencia for the 92kg spot.  Does anyone else agree with this? 

[mspart]

Why should he?  He's already #2 at 86kg.   Or do you think he should be #1 at 92kg?   He didn't go through the WTT tourney to get to Final X so no is the answer.   He needed to make that decision some time ago. 

mspart

[MPhillips]

31 minutes ago, bl177 said:

  Does anyone else agree with this? 

Nope.

[bl177]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

Why should he?  He's already #2 at 86kg.   Or do you think he should be #1 at 92kg?   He didn't go through the WTT tourney to get to Final X so no is the answer.   He needed to make that decision some time ago. 

mspart

Brooks took the challenge of trying to beat David Taylor.  I guess the only way he could have made the world team was to forfeit 86 kg his spot at Final X, and entered the WTT tourney at 92kg. I honestly believe he would be our best representative at 92kg.  

[gromit]

15 minutes ago, bl177 said:

Brooks took the challenge of trying to beat David Taylor.  I guess the only way he could have made the world team was to forfeit 86 kg his spot at Final X, and entered the WTT tourney at 92kg. I honestly believe he would be our best representative at 92kg.  

Correct, the choice was his to make.

[nhs67]

33 minutes ago, bl177 said:

Brooks took the challenge of trying to beat David Taylor.  I guess the only way he could have made the world team was to forfeit 86 kg his spot at Final X, and entered the WTT tourney at 92kg. I honestly believe he would be our best representative at 92kg.  

The criteria was laid out well in advance.  He made the choice to attempt to dethrone the 86 KG king rather than go 92 KG at WTT.

He had the opportunity to decline his Final X berth and chose to not do so.  The rules simply stated if someone (returning medalist, US Open winner, or WTT winner) accept their bid to Final X they cannot compete in another weight.

[nhs67]

Opinions and criteria often do not go hand in hand.

[BobDole]

We have seen this in the past where stars collide at one weight and we might have had a better team if the runner-up bumped up. Some have proposed we decide Olympic weights at one trials and non-Olympic ones at another to get the best possible team. Without prolonging and over complicating the process this is really a far fetched idea.

Some could say the same thing about Gillman and Yianni who would be in the mix to win at 61kg and 70kg. 

[bl177]

38 minutes ago, gromit said:

Correct, the choice was his to make.

I find it amazing (and somewhat unfair) that the #3 86kg wrestler is representing the USA at the world championships, while the #2 86 kg wrestler sits at home and has to watch a wrestler he beat.  

[mspart]

Life sucks sometimes.   Once he heard Zahid was going to 92, he could have gone to 92, but that would have left the #3 guy at Nationals going to final X.   I think at some point you have to say the decision has been made and move on.  

Brooks is #2 at 86, ZV is #1 at 92.   ZV saw an opportunity and went with it.  Brooks was already in Final X.   Both had the exact same opportunity to succeed.   ZV made his stick, but not in an Olympic weight.   So there is that.   He will have to decide next year to go 86 or 97.   Not enviable either; try to topple a multi World and Oly Champ, or topple a Multi World and Olympic Champ.   And neither champs show any signs of deterioration.   Now that's a tough assignment.   Brooks has already tasted that with Taylor.  So has ZV.   I think it is remarkable that ZV stayed with TeamUSA rather than going with TeamMexico where he may have had an Olympic shot.   If I read on these boards correctly, that is now not a decision he can make.   So he has to be pretty positive about his ability to improve by next year. 

mspart

[Le duke]

It is kind of absurd that Brooks will more or less be penalized by winning the challenge tournament, and that Zahid, if he medals at 92kg, will sit out until the semis of OTTs.

If you’re a young Olympic weight challenger to a an older guy with a very strong chance of medaling at worlds, there’s very little incentive to wrestle at the Olympic weight.

Good on Brooks for winning the challenge tournament and trying to take down the ultimate boss, though.


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[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Opinions and criteria often do not go hand in hand.

What is your criteria for this opinion?

[ionel]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

What is your criteria for this opinion?

What is your opinion of this criteria?

[wrestle87]

11 hours ago, bl177 said:

Because Aaron Brooks beat Zahid Valencia at the US Open, he should have been allowed a special wrestle-off against Valencia for the 92kg spot.  Does anyone else agree with this? 

I hear you on this, but that would do a disservice to the entire 92kg weight class.  Zahid was able to beat them, but Brooks might not have gotten through them, crazy as it sounds.  He never wrestled the matches, can’t do that to the competitors.

[nhs67]

7 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I hear you on this, but that would do a disservice to the entire 92kg weight class.  Zahid was able to beat them, but Brooks might not have gotten through them, crazy as it sounds.  He never wrestled the matches, can’t do that to the competitors.

Styles make matches.

I think Brooks beats an injured Moore.  I don't think or know if he beats a thicc Macchiavello.  He isn't as big or strong as Macchiavello and styles do make matches.

I had posted something in the old boards about a ladder system.  We would need to place out to 6th or 8th at WTT/US Open for it to be practical, but allowing folks to challenge once per month (say the 2nd Saturday of each month - one per month) would do us a USA Wrestling a lot of good.

Brooks the #2, for example, could challenge the 5th ranked guy up or down a weight sort of thing.  Then the next month, providing the 4th ranked guy didn't challenge the 3rd ranked guy, he could challenge up to the 4th at that same weight class.

If there is an injury concern then he could leapfrog.

We had a decent thread about it, I thought.  I will see if I can find it.

[WrestlingRasta]

This is all stupid.  You make your choices, you live with your choices.

You don't force the rest of the field to wait to see if your choices worked out for you or not.

[BuckyBadger]

Clearly the Holy Spirit wanted him to take 2nd at 86 kg.

[mspart]

45 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

This is all stupid.  You make your choices, you live with your choices.

You don't force the rest of the field to wait to see if your choices worked out for you or not.

This.

mspart

[mspart]

Here is an honest question.   

Fact:   Brooks was in final X.  By winning Nationals, he was automatically in Final X.  

Question:   Who in their right mind would give that up for a chance at a non olympic weight, have to go through a whole other tourney just to deny someone a spot if they were good enough to actually take it?   Who would give up Final X for a maybe Final X?   The question just doesn't make sense. 

ZV made his choice and AB made his choice.    AB could have made a different choice, but who would do a stupid thing like that?  For ZV, it was an obvious choice because he had no other shot at getting on the team.   And it worked out for him.   But there were many here that felt Macc would easily beat him.  Many here made fun of him being fat.   But he killed the mini tourney and the Final X.   Good for ZV.  Would AB have had as much luck?   Maybe, maybe not.   But he was already in a final x so why even consider it. You can't do an ex post facto on the event and say "I shoulda done this" and have everyone comply with your wish.   Life, as has been mentioned doesn't work that way.   

mspart

[bnwtwg]

Since we can all agree that it's not fair to Brooks to have been clearly laid out the rules and timeline for his decision-making all the way back on January 15, what about a couple fun scenarios that would *really* mess with our resident king of the VO2 mountain @Le duke

1) Brooks becomes an atheist; as such he follows his carnal desires and therefore the lord is no longer cutting with him so he bumps up to 92 at WTT but Zahid beats him this time around. AB has the same boring offseason but Mark Hall ascends to Final X where he is Taylor's sacrificial lamb.

1.1) Bonus fun scenario: If Hall is competing rather than coaching, does Burroughs have a different result and make the team?!?

2) Zahid lets Brooks weigh-in first and then just never steps on the scale therefore ascending to the 86kg spot at Final X by losing at the US Open. That's a grown-man's 3D chess move right there.

[Alces Alces Gigas]

I might be convinced that Olympic weights should be wrestled to completion  and then wrestle the non Olympic weights.     Maybe not every year but at least the years preceding the Olympics.    

[GreatWhiteNorth]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:59 AM, bl177 said:

Because Aaron Brooks beat Zahid Valencia at the US Open, he should have been allowed a special wrestle-off against Valencia for the 92kg spot.  Does anyone else agree with this? 

No, zip, zero, not at all. It is over and done.

[Eagle26]

13 hours ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

I might be convinced that Olympic weights should be wrestled to completion  and then wrestle the non Olympic weights.     Maybe not every year but at least the years preceding the Olympics.    

I think this is a good idea. We all know that there’s no way Brooks should be given a special wrestle off based on the rules this year. However, the sentiment that OP is concerned about does make sense… since Zahid lost earlier in the process, he gets a chance to move up, but since Brooks lost in the finals it was too late. 

[PencilNeck]

If you're going to magically change rules for maximum fairness, why not wish for a maximum two entries per country instead of just one. That's the real issue here (I know, in deference to smaller countries getting changes to medal, this is not ever going to happen).

 

If you want to double-dip, you can enter free and greco. you cannot wrestle two weight classes in the same event in the same meet though. 

[AgaveMaria]

8 hours ago, PencilNeck said:

If you're going to magically change rules for maximum fairness, why not wish for a maximum two entries per country instead of just one. That's the real issue here (I know, in deference to smaller countries getting changes to medal, this is not ever going to happen).

 

If you want to double-dip, you can enter free and greco. you cannot wrestle two weight classes in the same event in the same meet though. 

Many other sports allow more than one entrant per event. Wrestling and Boxing both should have two per weight.