Ohio State Kyle Snyder / Rocco Welsh > PSU

[scorenomore]

It's saturday night and I haven't been drinking or smoking, but I have been thinking and want to call this out.  Cael has been a better recruiter, not necessarily a better developer of talent.  The only 2 examples I think of that are true comps and not made up rankings is Kyle Snyder and Rocco Welsh.

Ohio State took Kyle Snyder to the top of the world multiple times and he has struggled to replicate that success at PSU.  I will put an * to any championships he gets at PSU when the guy that has pinned him is not in the tournament.  Other notable transfers that didn't jump levels are Gilman and Nagao.  Messenbrink was on glidepath to make the coach at wherever he went look amazing.

Ohio State took a freshman Rocco to the NCAA finals.  I don't think PSU will get him to the finals for the rest of his career.

See below courtesy of chatgpt.  PSU is not better than programs at developing NCAA wrestlers.  There is no statistical support!

Wrestler	From ➜ To	NCAA results before PSU	NCAA results at PSU
Max Dean	Cornell ➜ Penn State	2018 – 8th at 184; 2019 – 2nd at 184.	2022 – 1st at 197; 2023 – 7th at 197.
Bernie Truax IV	Cal Poly ➜ Penn State	2021 – 4th at 174; 2022 – 4th at 184; 2023 – 4th at 197.	2024 – 5th at 184.
Mitchell Mesenbrink	Cal Baptist ➜ Penn State	(No NCAA placement at CBU)	2024 – 2nd at 165; 2025 – 1st at 165.
Greg Kerkvliet	Ohio State (no matches) ➜ Penn State	(Did not compete for OSU)	2021 – 7th at HWT; 2022 – 4th; 2023 – 2nd; 2024 – 1st.
Corey Keener	Central Michigan ➜ Penn State	NCAA qualifier at 133 (no All-American)	2018 – NCAA qualifier at 133 (1-2).
Jimmy Lawson	Monmouth ➜ Penn State	—	2015 – 6th at HWT (All-American).
Andrew Long	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2010 – 2nd at 125 (ISU)	2011 – 3rd at 133 (PSU).
Cyler Sanderson	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2008 – 7th at 157 (ISU)	2010 – 6th at 157 (PSU).
Kyle Conel	Kent State ➜ Penn State	2018 – 3rd at 197 (Kent State). (Kent State Golden Flashes)	Transferred to PSU for stay but did not record a new NCAA placement as a Lion. (gopsusports.com)

 

Edited November 9, 2025 by scorenomore
grammar

[The_KC_Godfather]

I don’t know that it was Ohio State as much as it was Tervel. I could be wrong about that but look at Feldman’s regression. Granted he’s dealt with some injuries, but I wonder if he’d be in the national title discussion if Tervel was still there…

[Gus]

I’m a paid PSU hater but are we forgetting that Kyle Snyder literally just won a world championship a month and a half ago?

[Alces Alces Gigas]

Rocco will never again get a route to the finals like he had in 24

[MPhillips]

2 hours ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

I don’t know that it was Ohio State as much as it was Tervel.

Tervel...

1 hour ago, Gus said:

are we forgetting that Kyle Snyder literally just won a world championship a month and a half ago?

Tervel. Still...

[MPhillips]

1 hour ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

Rocco will never again get a route to the finals like he had in 24

PSU lookin' ahead...

[The Kid]

6 hours ago, Gus said:

I’m a paid PSU hater but are we forgetting that Kyle Snyder literally just won a world championship a month and a half ago?

When your nemesis is banned from the tournament because of politics, there will be an asterisk there for that paper title. 

Edited November 9, 2025 by The Kid

[Alces Alces Gigas]

2 hours ago, The Kid said:

When your nemesis is banned from the tournament because of politics, there will be an asterisk there for that paper title. 

Actually it was stupidity  not politics.

[nhs67]

2 hours ago, The Kid said:

When your nemesis is banned from the tournament because of politics, there will be an asterisk there for that paper title. 

The guy who was 2x defending champion was there, and he won the bracket.

26 minutes ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

Actually it was stupidity  not politics.

Conveniently ignored is that he lied on paperwork and got busted.  It was a clerical error that was caught.

[1032004]

There are certainly examples of PSU “developing talent” - but it’s with their own recruits and not transfers.

What I think is interesting is Iowa often gets a bad rap with people thinking they wear down their transfers, but if you did a similar list as the OP you’d actually see mostly improved placements compared to their prior school.

[Gus]

18 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

The guy who was 2x defending champion was there, and he won the bracket.

Conveniently ignored is that he lied on paperwork and got busted.  It was a clerical error that was caught.

Exactly. If Taz was not there, it would have been an asterisk. But he was there and so was the Iranian and KS won the weight class. 

[scorenomore]

Tervel is great no doubt, but credit goes to Tom Ryan and Ohio State. Same was said about Roselli being the best part of Ohio State. Roselli became head coach and was terrible at Oklahoma. 

[TexRef]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

The guy who was 2x defending champion was there, and he won the bracket.

Conveniently ignored is that he lied on paperwork and got busted.  It was a clerical error that was caught.

Ok, I am in the back of the room and didn't hear it. Please tell us again. 

Edited November 9, 2025 by TexRef
.

[TexRef]

35 minutes ago, scorenomore said:

Tervel is great no doubt, but credit goes to Tom Ryan and Ohio State. Same was said about Roselli being the best part of Ohio State. Roselli became head coach and was terrible at Oklahoma. 

I like Lou and thought he would have had a better time at Oklahoma. 

[TexRef]

What is Lou doing now?

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, TexRef said:

What is Lou doing now?

Assistant at Pitt

[Pinnacle]

14 hours ago, scorenomore said:

It's saturday night and I haven't been drinking or smoking, but I have been thinking and want to call this out.  Cael has been a better recruiter, not necessarily a better developer of talent.  The only 2 examples I think of that are true comps and not made up rankings is Kyle Snyder and Rocco Welsh.

Ohio State took Kyle Snyder to the top of the world multiple times and he has struggled to replicate that success at PSU.  I will put an * to any championships he gets at PSU when the guy that has pinned him is not in the tournament.  Other notable transfers that didn't jump levels are Gilman and Nagao.  Messenbrink was on glidepath to make the coach at wherever he went look amazing.

Ohio State took a freshman Rocco to the NCAA finals.  I don't think PSU will get him to the finals for the rest of his career.

See below courtesy of chatgpt.  PSU is not better than programs at developing NCAA wrestlers.  There is no statistical support!

Wrestler	From ➜ To	NCAA results before PSU	NCAA results at PSU
Max Dean	Cornell ➜ Penn State	2018 – 8th at 184; 2019 – 2nd at 184.	2022 – 1st at 197; 2023 – 7th at 197.
Bernie Truax IV	Cal Poly ➜ Penn State	2021 – 4th at 174; 2022 – 4th at 184; 2023 – 4th at 197.	2024 – 5th at 184.
Mitchell Mesenbrink	Cal Baptist ➜ Penn State	(No NCAA placement at CBU)	2024 – 2nd at 165; 2025 – 1st at 165.
Greg Kerkvliet	Ohio State (no matches) ➜ Penn State	(Did not compete for OSU)	2021 – 7th at HWT; 2022 – 4th; 2023 – 2nd; 2024 – 1st.
Corey Keener	Central Michigan ➜ Penn State	NCAA qualifier at 133 (no All-American)	2018 – NCAA qualifier at 133 (1-2).
Jimmy Lawson	Monmouth ➜ Penn State	—	2015 – 6th at HWT (All-American).
Andrew Long	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2010 – 2nd at 125 (ISU)	2011 – 3rd at 133 (PSU).
Cyler Sanderson	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2008 – 7th at 157 (ISU)	2010 – 6th at 157 (PSU).
Kyle Conel	Kent State ➜ Penn State	2018 – 3rd at 197 (Kent State). (Kent State Golden Flashes)	Transferred to PSU for stay but did not record a new NCAA placement as a Lion. (gopsusports.com)

 

 

Psu has all those natty titles and half the wrestlers on the world team and they can't coach? This is your thesis?

You were more spot on about stuff when you were drinking.

 

[scorenomore]

1 hour ago, Pinnacle said:

 

Psu has all those natty titles and half the wrestlers on the world team and they can't coach? This is your thesis?

You were more spot on about stuff when you were drinking.

 

I just gave you 9 examples that they didn’t improve over other coaches.  They are better recruiters and sellers of snake oil. 
 

instead of refuting the facts, you changed the narrative. Yes they recruit the best who then score national titles, but there is no evidence that they do any better than the field with the same athletes. 

[TexRef]

3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Assistant at Pitt

Thank you 

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, scorenomore said:

I just gave you 9 examples that they didn’t improve over other coaches.  They are better recruiters and sellers of snake oil. 
 

instead of refuting the facts, you changed the narrative. Yes they recruit the best who then score national titles, but there is no evidence that they do any better than the field with the same athletes. 

I'm not going to pull in every top recruit.. but OKST, Iowa, tOSU, and others have all had a good amount of top 10 recruits. The difference between PSU and everyone else is that they turned 17 of their high end recruits into national champions during Cael's tenure while no other program has more than 7 individual national champions during that same stretch. It's one thing to get a guy on the podium.. it's another to put 5+ guys in the finals year after year. And I strongly root against PSU.

[Threadkilla]

17 hours ago, scorenomore said:

It's saturday night and I haven't been drinking or smoking, but I have been thinking and want to call this out.  Cael has been a better recruiter, not necessarily a better developer of talent.  The only 2 examples I think of that are true comps and not made up rankings is Kyle Snyder and Rocco Welsh.

Ohio State took Kyle Snyder to the top of the world multiple times and he has struggled to replicate that success at PSU.  I will put an * to any championships he gets at PSU when the guy that has pinned him is not in the tournament.  Other notable transfers that didn't jump levels are Gilman and Nagao.  Messenbrink was on glidepath to make the coach at wherever he went look amazing.

Ohio State took a freshman Rocco to the NCAA finals.  I don't think PSU will get him to the finals for the rest of his career.

See below courtesy of chatgpt.  PSU is not better than programs at developing NCAA wrestlers.  There is no statistical support!

Wrestler	From ➜ To	NCAA results before PSU	NCAA results at PSU
Max Dean	Cornell ➜ Penn State	2018 – 8th at 184; 2019 – 2nd at 184.	2022 – 1st at 197; 2023 – 7th at 197.
Bernie Truax IV	Cal Poly ➜ Penn State	2021 – 4th at 174; 2022 – 4th at 184; 2023 – 4th at 197.	2024 – 5th at 184.
Mitchell Mesenbrink	Cal Baptist ➜ Penn State	(No NCAA placement at CBU)	2024 – 2nd at 165; 2025 – 1st at 165.
Greg Kerkvliet	Ohio State (no matches) ➜ Penn State	(Did not compete for OSU)	2021 – 7th at HWT; 2022 – 4th; 2023 – 2nd; 2024 – 1st.
Corey Keener	Central Michigan ➜ Penn State	NCAA qualifier at 133 (no All-American)	2018 – NCAA qualifier at 133 (1-2).
Jimmy Lawson	Monmouth ➜ Penn State	—	2015 – 6th at HWT (All-American).
Andrew Long	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2010 – 2nd at 125 (ISU)	2011 – 3rd at 133 (PSU).
Cyler Sanderson	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2008 – 7th at 157 (ISU)	2010 – 6th at 157 (PSU).
Kyle Conel	Kent State ➜ Penn State	2018 – 3rd at 197 (Kent State). (Kent State Golden Flashes)	Transferred to PSU for stay but did not record a new NCAA placement as a Lion. (gopsusports.com)

 

 

 

Yeah, Cael cant develop talent.     Good stuff,  thanks for sharing.   

[de4856]

Well I think SnyderMan’s situation is due to his age. Once upon a time he was the young guy, and has had great success, but Kyle is on the cusp of turning 30, (or maybe he already has), and now the studs in 97, (except for Sads), are young, and in their early 20’s, and as we see with our own team (at certain weight classes), we have a lot of young talent as well, so my point is that I think younger wrestlers nowadays are quicker to make a impact on the senior level. 
As far as coaches are concerned I think he was primarily coached by Lou Rosselli, while with the Buckeyes. If memory serves me right, I think Lou left to take the Sooner’s job. And after a disappointing World’s for Kyle he left for what he believed was greener pastures. Now I guess the crux of the question is does Cael and company develop talent better than anyone else, hard to answer, but Cael has built an amazing system, with some great coaches and wrestlers. And there are many success stories coming out of Penn St, (too many to mention really), but here’s the other thing, although Cael is the ultimate college wrestler, his international accolades aren’t equal to Snyder’s. I remember an interview of Cael a few years ago where he talked about coaching Snyder, and his comment was something like that he was just trying not to screw him up too much. Of course you have to take that statement with a grain of salt. But Cael must be credited with building his program and being the mastermind behind it. But I will say this about Snyder was his true development in High School or at the Olympic training center? 
Rocco, well he’s a completely different guy and I believe that he will improve but I don’t think we’ll see him garner the accolades that Snyder has. 

[Fred]

Maybe these transfers, having shown disloyalty to one program, are viewed with some suspicion and never fully accepted into the new program 

[Gus]

Perhaps I’m dense but why in the world is Kyle Snyder, the reigning world gold medalist in a weight class with one of the top p4p guys in the world - Taz, being used as an example of regression?

[Nak21]

Maybe pour yourself a few and light up?? 
Bad take. Hardly worth the reply, but why not, it’s Sunday and I don’t drink or smoke.

Max Dean - 1st and 7th up a weight (he’s really short) beats 2nd and 8th.

Bernie. A bunch of 4ths and then a 5th. Really? That’s a wash.

MM. Wrestles like 1 match during a RS, comes to PSU goes 2nd, then 1st, is making world teams and winning world titles, and probably dominates this year and next for 2 more titles. You’re kinda bad at this if you didn’t pick up on this yet.

Kerk. Nothing to compare but at PSU goes 7, 4, 2, 1 all while usually banged up and competing at HVY in the Steveson era. 
Keener. One year (and I think mid year?) fill in. NQ and NQ. It’s a wash.

Lawson. Dude played football D3, comes to PSU not having wrestled in 3-4yrs and AAs under Cael.

Andrew Long. 2nd to 3rd to jail. Maybe about the only one you’ve been right on.

Cyler. 7th to 6th. I’d say a wash, but technically slight improvement. Maybe it was Dads coaching?

Kyle Conel. 3rd out of nowhere, comes to PSU, gets injured. 

I think Caels record speaks for itself. He recruits AND coaches. And has by far the best staff and RTC crew in the country. And why does he recruit so well? Because guys wanna wrestle for the best coaches. Which is what PSU has, top to bottom.
Best you did was cherry pick some transfers and point out that several improved, most were a wash and a few (injury and jail) regressed. Wow! Such an indictment of a horrible coach. I sure hope he sticks around and coaches this bad for another 20yrs, he’ll retire with 30 titles.