Ohio State Kyle Snyder / Rocco Welsh > PSU

[Antitroll2828]

I can’t believe my man Jimmy Lawson is out here taking strays on this clickbait post.

he played 3 years of football after not stepping on a mat after his sr year decided he wanted to wrestle again went to Penn State won the spot and AAed. It’s a complete success story all around , athlete, coach , school…worst example imaginable

[Pinnacle]

6 hours ago, scorenomore said:

I just gave you 9 examples that they didn’t improve over other coaches.  They are better recruiters and sellers of snake oil. 
 

instead of refuting the facts, you changed the narrative. Yes they recruit the best who then score national titles, but there is no evidence that they do any better than the field with the same athletes. 

Your whole premise is faulty. Pick and choose loose tidbits all you want, but on the mat Penn State and NLWC dominate. 

There is no athletic program in any sport anywhere in the world right now that wins so consistantly as PSU wrestling.

Thanks for playing.

[scourge165]

9 hours ago, scorenomore said:

I just gave you 9 examples that they didn’t improve over other coaches.  They are better recruiters and sellers of snake oil. 
 

instead of refuting the facts, you changed the narrative. Yes they recruit the best who then score national titles, but there is no evidence that they do any better than the field with the same athletes. 

Yeah, but you didn't. YOU'RE including Mesenbrink, Kerkvliet, Sanderson(who improved)... Dean who won a NC, Jimmy Lawson became an AA at PSU, hadn't been prior. And one guy who didn't even finish up his career Wrestling as he was injured at Kent State and then injured at Penn State.

Not really 9 examples. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 11/9/2025 at 8:34 AM, Alces Alces Gigas said:

Actually it was stupidity  not politics.

Correct

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 11/9/2025 at 6:30 AM, The Kid said:

When your nemesis is banned from the tournament because of politics, there will be an asterisk there for that paper title. 

Weird... all the Russian #1s were there except for the guy who did something really really dumb.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 11/8/2025 at 10:11 PM, scorenomore said:

It's saturday night and I haven't been drinking or smoking, but I have been thinking and want to call this out.  Cael has been a better recruiter, not necessarily a better developer of talent.  The only 2 examples I think of that are true comps and not made up rankings is Kyle Snyder and Rocco Welsh.

Ohio State took Kyle Snyder to the top of the world multiple times and he has struggled to replicate that success at PSU.  I will put an * to any championships he gets at PSU when the guy that has pinned him is not in the tournament.  Other notable transfers that didn't jump levels are Gilman and Nagao.  Messenbrink was on glidepath to make the coach at wherever he went look amazing.

Ohio State took a freshman Rocco to the NCAA finals.  I don't think PSU will get him to the finals for the rest of his career.

See below courtesy of chatgpt.  PSU is not better than programs at developing NCAA wrestlers.  There is no statistical support!

Wrestler	From ➜ To	NCAA results before PSU	NCAA results at PSU
Max Dean	Cornell ➜ Penn State	2018 – 8th at 184; 2019 – 2nd at 184.	2022 – 1st at 197; 2023 – 7th at 197.
Bernie Truax IV	Cal Poly ➜ Penn State	2021 – 4th at 174; 2022 – 4th at 184; 2023 – 4th at 197.	2024 – 5th at 184.
Mitchell Mesenbrink	Cal Baptist ➜ Penn State	(No NCAA placement at CBU)	2024 – 2nd at 165; 2025 – 1st at 165.
Greg Kerkvliet	Ohio State (no matches) ➜ Penn State	(Did not compete for OSU)	2021 – 7th at HWT; 2022 – 4th; 2023 – 2nd; 2024 – 1st.
Corey Keener	Central Michigan ➜ Penn State	NCAA qualifier at 133 (no All-American)	2018 – NCAA qualifier at 133 (1-2).
Jimmy Lawson	Monmouth ➜ Penn State	—	2015 – 6th at HWT (All-American).
Andrew Long	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2010 – 2nd at 125 (ISU)	2011 – 3rd at 133 (PSU).
Cyler Sanderson	Iowa State ➜ Penn State	2008 – 7th at 157 (ISU)	2010 – 6th at 157 (PSU).
Kyle Conel	Kent State ➜ Penn State	2018 – 3rd at 197 (Kent State). (Kent State Golden Flashes)	Transferred to PSU for stay but did not record a new NCAA placement as a Lion. (gopsusports.com)

 

I'm a strong believer in most of this.

But, I have to take Snyder off.  His recent gold which included at victory over the Iranian who defeated him at the Olympics definitely showed something.

[scorenomore]

11 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Yeah, but you didn't. YOU'RE including Mesenbrink, Kerkvliet, Sanderson(who improved)... Dean who won a NC, Jimmy Lawson became an AA at PSU, hadn't been prior. And one guy who didn't even finish up his career Wrestling as he was injured at Kent State and then injured at Penn State.

Not really 9 examples. 

I agree Sanderson shouldn't count since he was being coached by Cael at ISU.  But as much as you don't want to believe it, there was statistical improvement from wrestlers that transferred into PSU.

Dean left Cornell because of covid protocols, his progress was that he won his last match instead of losing his last match...He lost 6-4 to Drew Foster in the finals at Cornell and beat Jacob Warner 3-2 in the finals at PSU.  I will say that winning your last match both in the finals and 7/8 does show more grit, so I will give the nod here that he improved at PSU

Truax - pretty amazing to place 4th at 174, 184 and 197 at Cal Poly, then under the amazing room of PSU he placed 5th at PSU - help it make sense how PSU made him better than Cal Poly?

Messenbrink - Does not count as a transfer because he redshirted

Kerk - did not compete, so let's not count

Keener - NCAA qualifier to NCAA qualifier - no improvement

Lawson - agree with prior posters, not a real comparison since he wasn't wrestling

Long - went from 2nd to 3rd at NCAAs, can we agree that both are 1-loss performances and no improvement

Conel - he was a big transfer at the time with lofty expectations and even before getting hurt did not look any better than at Kent St

 

For those in the back, PSU is the best team and has been for the past decade and might be for the next decade, there is no debate.  My point is that when working with the SAME athletes as other teams, they do not improve performance of the same athletes.

This was mostly focused on college accomplishments but it also extends to the senior level.  The book is still being written on Snyder, but his performance did not improve after transferring to PSU, similar story with Gilman.

And, I predict there will be a similar story with Rocco as well.  

Last tidbit to troll you is Suriano - left PSU and won a title at Rutgers of all places and then Michigan.

[BAC]

I think it's probably true for almost all schools that transfers improve to a lesser extent than original recruits.  That's hardly surprising, for a few reasons.  One, there's less time to coach a transfer. Two, with original recruits, the coaches can seek out the type of athlete that they believe is the closest match to their coaching style -- which is less often the case with transfers.  Three, transfers are more apt to have already adopted a "system" that works for them, which is harder for new coaches to break them out of calcified habits.  Four, and specific to PSU, the only guys who are going to transfer into that meat-grinder are guys who *already* have achieved a ton, so the margin for improvement is very slight.

All that said, I think you're cherry-picking facts to give PSU short shrift here.

Snyder was already an Olympic and World champ, but he had slipped at tOSU. That's presumably why he transferred. At PSU, he was able to get back on top of the podium.

Gilman had won a world silver at Iowa in '17, then wasn't able to sniff the podium for a few years. It was to be an Eggum-like "one silver and done" freestyle career. He comes to PSU, makes the Olympic team, takes a bronze, then world gold, plus more hardware. Flo ranked him the 43rd best freestyler of all time, and one of our most decorated freestyle lightweights ever. Hard to imagine a worse example for your argument.

Collegiately, there's multiple guys who transferred to PSU and won NCAA titles.  Dean, Mesenbrink, Kerkvliet. Amazingly, some claim those don't "count."  That's pretty funny.  Unless you can defend the claim that they were already at the level of an NCAA champ before transferring, that doesn't fly.

Does everyone make the jump to NCAA champ?  No. But it's not like they regressed in skill. Not everyone's going to be able to make that final jump to NCAA champ (Truax), or not get hurt (Conel), or even make the team (McKnight). And I'm not aware of *anyone* saying they didn't improve while at PSU. 

Welsh?  Too early to tell.  Bear in mind he made the finals 2 years ago as a 6 seed, with a total of 7 points scored in regulation in his 5 matches. (He won three in SV to make the finals.)  He and PSU have their work cut out for them with McEnelly and Ferrari at his weight, but we'll see.

Suriano?  LOL. He was pretty darn good at PSU. No doubt he improved, but if we're in trolling mode, look at Michael Beard. 7th at PSU as a frosh, transfers, never places that high again in his next 3 years.

[The Kid]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Weird... all the Russian #1s were there except for the guy who did something really really dumb.

It was a political move by Croatia.   Israeli's ok.  USA ok.  Sadulaev bad.

[Pinnacle]

5 hours ago, scorenomore said:

Truax - pretty amazing to place 4th at 174, 184 and 197 at Cal Poly, then under the amazing room of PSU he placed 5th at PSU - help it make sense how PSU made him better than Cal Poly?

 

I will make it make sense since you have no idea what you are talking about. In 2024 wearing the PSU singlet Bernie Truax won by TF in the 2nd round at NCAA's, something he never accomplished at Cal Poly. In his QF match he was injured vs Dustin Plott. Injuries derail guys if they are bad enough. He forged on and took 5th on a bum leg. 

Now you know why people dismiss your totally absurd premise. You lack context, something that is kinda important when make silly unfounded claims. 

Edited November 10, 2025 by Pinnacle

[PortaJohn]

On 11/9/2025 at 4:42 PM, Gus said:

Perhaps I’m dense but why in the world is Kyle Snyder, the reigning world gold medalist in a weight class with one of the top p4p guys in the world - Taz, being used as an example of regression?

Because the season isn't in full swing yet so we're quite not at the point where this forum will get inundated with PSU/Iowa threads

[1032004]

8 hours ago, BAC said:

I think it's probably true for almost all schools that transfers improve to a lesser extent than original recruits.  That's hardly surprising, for a few reasons.  One, there's less time to coach a transfer. Two, with original recruits, the coaches can seek out the type of athlete that they believe is the closest match to their coaching style -- which is less often the case with transfers.  Three, transfers are more apt to have already adopted a "system" that works for them, which is harder for new coaches to break them out of calcified habits.  Four, and specific to PSU, the only guys who are going to transfer into that meat-grinder are guys who *already* have achieved a ton, so the margin for improvement is very slight.

All that said, I think you're cherry-picking facts to give PSU short shrift here.

Snyder was already an Olympic and World champ, but he had slipped at tOSU. That's presumably why he transferred. At PSU, he was able to get back on top of the podium.

Gilman had won a world silver at Iowa in '17, then wasn't able to sniff the podium for a few years. It was to be an Eggum-like "one silver and done" freestyle career. He comes to PSU, makes the Olympic team, takes a bronze, then world gold, plus more hardware. Flo ranked him the 43rd best freestyler of all time, and one of our most decorated freestyle lightweights ever. Hard to imagine a worse example for your argument.

Collegiately, there's multiple guys who transferred to PSU and won NCAA titles.  Dean, Mesenbrink, Kerkvliet. Amazingly, some claim those don't "count."  That's pretty funny.  Unless you can defend the claim that they were already at the level of an NCAA champ before transferring, that doesn't fly.

Does everyone make the jump to NCAA champ?  No. But it's not like they regressed in skill. Not everyone's going to be able to make that final jump to NCAA champ (Truax), or not get hurt (Conel), or even make the team (McKnight). And I'm not aware of *anyone* saying they didn't improve while at PSU. 

Welsh?  Too early to tell.  Bear in mind he made the finals 2 years ago as a 6 seed, with a total of 7 points scored in regulation in his 5 matches. (He won three in SV to make the finals.)  He and PSU have their work cut out for them with McEnelly and Ferrari at his weight, but we'll see.

Suriano?  LOL. He was pretty darn good at PSU. No doubt he improved, but if we're in trolling mode, look at Michael Beard. 7th at PSU as a frosh, transfers, never places that high again in his next 3 years.

Kerk and Mesenbrink don’t count because they never wrestled an NCAA tournament outside of PSU, so we don’t know how they would have done elsewhere.

Dean “counts,” but he went from 2nd to 1st (then back down to 7th). He probably can thank transferring to PSU for his title though because if he wasn’t wearing that singlet he probably doesn’t get the benefit of maybe the most favorable combined set of calls in NCAA tournament history.

[BAC]

43 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Kerk and Mesenbrink don’t count because they never wrestled an NCAA tournament outside of PSU, so we don’t know how they would have done elsewhere.

So if all 10 of PSU's starters transferred in prior to wrestling at NCAAs, and all 10 won a NCAA title under the tutelage of the PSU coaching staff, you'd agree with @scorenormore that "when working with the SAME athletes as other teams, they do not improve performance of the same athletes"?

Since, you know... maybe they were all stealth NCAA Champs (or better!) before they even got there?

That's actually pretty funny.

43 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Dean “counts,” but he went from 2nd to 1st (then back down to 7th). He probably can thank transferring to PSU for his title though because if he wasn’t wearing that singlet he probably doesn’t get the benefit of maybe the most favorable combined set of calls in NCAA tournament history.

Yeah but would Dean have gotten as high at 2nd at Cornell without the benefit of their crackerjack legal team?

[1032004]

9 minutes ago, BAC said:

So if all 10 of PSU's starters transferred in prior to wrestling at NCAAs, and all 10 won a NCAA title under the tutelage of the PSU coaching staff, you'd agree with @scorenormore that "when working with the SAME athletes as other teams, they do not improve performance of the same athletes"?

Since, you know... maybe they were all stealth NCAA Champs (or better!) before they even got there?

That's actually pretty funny.

Yeah but would Dean have gotten as high at 2nd at Cornell without the benefit of their crackerjack legal team?

I would agree that Kerk and Mesenbrink should also not count “against” PSU, if that’s where you’re going with that.

OP did leave out other examples though.  IMO the most notable example of regression at PSU is Hildebrandt, who went from finishing 4th at CMU to going 1-2 at PSU.  I’d also include Nagao in the list, although he of course still has time to improve.

[BruceyB]

11 hours ago, scorenomore said:

My point is that when working with the SAME athletes as other teams, they do not improve performance of the same athletes.

Who cares? So, they may not turn an underperforming recruit into a much improved version of themselves.. You're trying to argue that PSU is only better because they have better recruits? That's just wrong, plain and simple. If that's the argument you're trying to make, you're just grasping at straws to take away from PSU, and that's coming from someone that would love to take away from PSU's success.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 11/10/2025 at 1:56 PM, The Kid said:

It was a political move by Croatia.   Israeli's ok.  USA ok.  Sadulaev bad.

No.  Why would the USA be bad?  

Why was Saduleev bad but not Sidakov or Uguev?  Your argument falls apart quickly.

The guy pulled a boneheaded move and violated the law.

[JimmyCinnabon]

I didn't read the numbers after you discounted everything Cael has done that doesn't support your argument. Be better.

[Dogbone]

OSU might be the worst comp to talk about development.  Since the "Young Bucks" entered college, OSU has finished 5th, 5th, 8th, 5th.   

All the PSU transfers results tell me is that that PSU isn't some magical place that can take any AA to a national champ just by stepping onto campus.  

PSU success certainly helps when you can recruit a few P4P top 10 guys every year.  But no one has turned as many top P4P guys into multiple time NCAA champs as PSU and the lack of overall success from OSU's "historic recruiting class" should highlight how hard that is more than anything else. 

 

[Room Guy]

High Mileage Kyle Snyder just won the freaking World Championship. What the hell are we talking about here with the OP title?

[NM1965]

On 11/9/2025 at 2:43 PM, scorenomore said:

Tervel is great no doubt, but credit goes to Tom Ryan and Ohio State. Same was said about Roselli being the best part of Ohio State. Roselli became head coach and was terrible at Oklahoma. 

Roselli was worse than terrible at OU. I remember him sending his boy to another state to wrestle because he didn't think Oklahoma HS wrestling was tough enough. What's his kid done in college? Oh yeah, exactly jack shit. Killed his recruiting among Oklahoma kids, I'm sure. Sure, you may disrespect the wrestling in the state where you are coaching, but don't be stupid enough to diss the athletes you can recruit who might help the team. 

Regarding PSU, they seem to be the ultimate team to join if you want to improve as a wrestler. Iowa has that rep for little guys (deservedly?), but PSU does it with all weights. I'm not a PSU knobgobbler, by the way, just a wrestling fan who admires the product they put on the mat, I'm an old Okie and root for OU/OSU (but OU hasn't been good in a long, long time). 

[scourge165]

On 11/10/2025 at 11:26 AM, scorenomore said:

I agree Sanderson shouldn't count since he was being coached by Cael at ISU.  But as much as you don't want to believe it, there was statistical improvement from wrestlers that transferred into PSU.

Dean left Cornell because of covid protocols, his progress was that he won his last match instead of losing his last match...He lost 6-4 to Drew Foster in the finals at Cornell and beat Jacob Warner 3-2 in the finals at PSU.  I will say that winning your last match both in the finals and 7/8 does show more grit, so I will give the nod here that he improved at PSU

Truax - pretty amazing to place 4th at 174, 184 and 197 at Cal Poly, then under the amazing room of PSU he placed 5th at PSU - help it make sense how PSU made him better than Cal Poly?

Messenbrink - Does not count as a transfer because he redshirted

Kerk - did not compete, so let's not count

Keener - NCAA qualifier to NCAA qualifier - no improvement

Lawson - agree with prior posters, not a real comparison since he wasn't wrestling

Long - went from 2nd to 3rd at NCAAs, can we agree that both are 1-loss performances and no improvement

Conel - he was a big transfer at the time with lofty expectations and even before getting hurt did not look any better than at Kent St

 

For those in the back, PSU is the best team and has been for the past decade and might be for the next decade, there is no debate.  My point is that when working with the SAME athletes as other teams, they do not improve performance of the same athletes.

This was mostly focused on college accomplishments but it also extends to the senior level.  The book is still being written on Snyder, but his performance did not improve after transferring to PSU, similar story with Gilman.

And, I predict there will be a similar story with Rocco as well.  

Well... for starters, you're the one saying you gave NINE examples of Wrestlers who went to Penn State and didn't improve. Mesenbrink has been the most dominant Wrestler in the Country.... but "doesn't count." 

Ok, then why'd you count him?

Lawson- If you play football and then get back into Wrestling and you become an AA, I'd say that's... some evidence the coaching is doing a pretty good job. 

Quote

 

And, I predict there will be a similar story with Rocco as well.  

 

 

Yeah, I predicted the same about Welsch. I did it because I think '84 has more young talent than any other weight. I think Sinclair is vastly underrated, Ferrari, Ryder and McEnelly is a helluva group of Freshmen and I could see any of them winning it...or Welsh, but I'll put my money on McEnelly or Sinclair. 

Of course, anyone who understands Nuance would understand he can get better and not place higher. He took a 2nd in a weight with 3 National Champs because he was on the opposite side of the bracket as all 3 and didn't have to Wrestle them because a Penn State Wrestler beat both of them...

Quote

Last tidbit to troll you is Suriano - left PSU and won a title at Rutgers of all places and then Michigan.

 

I'm unsure why you think you're "trolling" me. I'm not a Penn State fan. Just a College Wrestling fan who... thinks your whole "Wrestlers don't get better at Penn State," thing is... just silly. 

But what I really don't get is why you say "at Rutgers of all places?" You give Rutgers a stud, they'll win a NC. Penn State just... tends to get all of the studs.

They've gotten those studs because people want to Wrestle for Cael and Casey and they want to be on a dominant team.

 

I mean, it's obvious you're trolling, I'm just not sure why. It's a weird argument. And then YOU make a list and then you pick it apart after making it. Seems... pointless. If you take a RS who didn't really Wrestle as a Freshmen, you get him into the Finals vs a multiple time champ like Carr where he loses... IMO because he didn't realize he was down on RT(I think that's pretty obvious) and that's his ONE career loss thus far with... nobody looking like they're particularly close and you say "see, didn't get better," well, I guess it is just kinda weird and trolling. 

[scourge165]

6 hours ago, NM1965 said:

Regarding PSU, they seem to be the ultimate team to join if you want to improve as a wrestler. Iowa has that rep for little guys (deservedly?), but PSU does it with all weights. I'm not a PSU knobgobbler, by the way, just a wrestling fan who admires the product they put on the mat, I'm an old Okie and root for OU/OSU (but OU hasn't been good in a long, long time). 

I'm the same... though not an old Okie State fan, I just... appreciated how dominant they were the last time they won it and they sure as hell look like they're loading up for another run.

Ohio State looks loaded, but just can't quite get seem to finish out the roster to get over the hump.

Iowa is loaded. They've added some very good Wrestlers... but it's Okie State that we're all looking to in a... what, probably 2 years and hoping to see if they can unseat PSU. 

It's a great story. Taylor retires from competition, goes out beating one of the best Wrestlers in the world, the kid who came with Cael and is now building a loaded program at Oklahoma St. 

I also love seeing Va Tech getting the talent they're getting. Melvin Miller was giving PJ Duke a match in what may be the greatest "High School" season ever. 

 

That said, if PSU has 6 Champs and sets the point record again, I'm going to be impressed by them just like I was in awe of Alabama's Football dominance or any excellence in sports. 

[NM1965]

7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I'm the same... though not an old Okie State fan, I just... appreciated how dominant they were the last time they won it and they sure as hell look like they're loading up for another run.

Ohio State looks loaded, but just can't quite get seem to finish out the roster to get over the hump.

Iowa is loaded. They've added some very good Wrestlers... but it's Okie State that we're all looking to in a... what, probably 2 years and hoping to see if they can unseat PSU. 

It's a great story. Taylor retires from competition, goes out beating one of the best Wrestlers in the world, the kid who came with Cael and is now building a loaded program at Oklahoma St. 

I also love seeing Va Tech getting the talent they're getting. Melvin Miller was giving PJ Duke a match in what may be the greatest "High School" season ever. 

 

That said, if PSU has 6 Champs and sets the point record again, I'm going to be impressed by them just like I was in awe of Alabama's Football dominance or any excellence in sports. 

[NM1965]

On 11/10/2025 at 11:49 PM, PortaJohn said:

Because the season isn't in full swing yet so we're quite not at the point where this forum will get inundated with PSU/Iowa threads

Last I heard they plan on firing the Brands and making Spencer Lee the HC at National Duals. Sounds insanely dumb to me, but what else would be more Iowa than being really, really dumb?

 

 

[NM1965]

19 hours ago, Dogbone said:

OSU might be the worst comp to talk about development.  Since the "Young Bucks" entered college, OSU has finished 5th, 5th, 8th, 5th.   

All the PSU transfers results tell me is that that PSU isn't some magical place that can take any AA to a national champ just by stepping onto campus.  

PSU success certainly helps when you can recruit a few P4P top 10 guys every year.  But no one has turned as many top P4P guys into multiple time NCAA champs as PSU and the lack of overall success from OSU's "historic recruiting class" should highlight how hard that is more than anything else. 

 

Who are the "Young Bucks"? Was Mendez one of them? He's done great so far.