Better 4-timer: Spencer Lee or Kyle Dake?

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Lee has lost more matches but has been much more dominant in terms of bonus point.  Dake lost fewer matches but put up less bonus.  He did take out David Taylor a bunch of times though and has an Olympic medal.

 

Who is the better NCAA 4x Champ?

[82bordeaux]

[Mr. PeanutButter]

Lee could wrestle all of his remaining matches (ie, no ducking) and end each one with a 1st period fall and Id still put him behind Kyle. Not Lee's fault, beating David Taylor and winning 4 titles across 4 different weights is simply too big of an advantage in Dake's favor for Lee to overcome. 

Now, If Covid had never happened and had Lee wrestled last year - beating some combo of Vito, Suriano, and Glory in the process then maybe we could have entertained this discussion 

[Jerry Callo]

What about Logan Stieber?  I would put Dake ahead of both but Stieber ahead if Lee - more better competition IMHO

[mspart]

Interesting.   Dake, who has his 4 and more international gold than anyone can reasonably expect.  But did not do FS until college was over.  Lee the same there.  So Lee is where Dake was, generally speaking, during their last college year.  It would be tough to beat Dake for college honors I think.   Dake did something no one else has done. 

I mean how many 3 timers were at a different weight each time?   My guess would be not very many.  I could be wrong on that.  That might be a fun thing to look at if someone has the time to go there. 

How many 4 timers?  How many did it at different weights?  I think 4 so far?  Cael did 2 weights.   Kyle did 4 weights.

How many 3 timers?  How many did it at different weights? 

Having said and questioned all that, I should say I really don't like Dake much.   But that is just his personality that I have seen.  I don't know him.   But he is one crazy incredible wrestler.  It's like Broncos QB Elway.  I hated him (I'm a Seahawks fan), and he beat the Seahawks numerous time with a 2 minute drive he was famous for.  Drove me nuts.   But could not deny that he had incredible talent.  Dake, is one of the most incredibly talented wrestlers of all time.   How many have 4 WC gold medals and a Bronze Oly medal?   That is incredibly talented.   Interestingly, it comes when we have other very talented folks of all time on the team at the same time.  

When did we ever have a (Dake) 4 time WC gold and one time Bronze Oly, (JB) 6 WC gold, 3 WC bronze, 1 Oly gold, (KS) 3 WC gold, 2 WC silver, 1 WC bronze, 1 Oly gold, 1 Oly  silver, (JC) 2 WC gold, 1 WC silver, 2 WC bronze, 1 Oly bronze.    I don't think we have ever had that kind of success ever - exception to John and Big Bruce. 

We truly have excpetional folks on our team these past years.    Better than ever before.  Let us be grateful this is not the 2000s. 

mspart

[Idaho]

Isn't there a poll option? 

[headshuck]

Lee when he wins a title at 133, 141 and 149 and takes out a returning champ to close it out.

[ionel]

Lee is going for his 5th?  I clearly haven't been following the sport close enough.  

[Eagle26]

Lee is a 3x champ. Everyone thought he would be a 4x state champ in high school too. Don’t count your eggs before they hatch.

[ionel]

18 minutes ago, headshuck said:

Lee when he wins a title at 133, 141 and 149 and takes out a returning champ to close it out.

But wouldn't you be more impressed with 125, 125, 125 then 184?

[headshuck]

But wouldn't you be more impressed with 125, 125, 125 then 184?

I would be suspicious like I was when Taylor made similar gains.

[D3UC157]

Cael for sure

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

Lee is a 3x champ. Everyone thought he would be a 4x state champ in high school too. Don’t count your eggs before they hatch.

Everyone also thought he was too small to ever wrestle 125.  "A 118"

[Pinnacle]

Who are the 4 or 5 best wrestlers Lee has beaten in college? Suriano, NaTo, Seabass, ....... who else. 

[ionel]

1 hour ago, headshuck said:

I would be suspicious like I was when Taylor made similar gains.

ok ... what about 125, 125, 125 and 165 taking out Carr, Griffith and O'Toole in the process.  

[flyingcement]

Year 1: 285 title winner 

Year 2: 174 title winner

Year 3: 149 title winner

Year 4: 125 title winner

Hodge in all four years, two Olympic golds as a college freshman (FS and Greco) without an Olympic redshirt. Undefeated throughout college and also served as head coach four all four years.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

Year 1: 285 title winner 

Year 2: 174 title winner

Year 3: 149 title winner

Year 4: 125 title winner

Hodge in all four years, two Olympic golds as a college freshman (FS and Greco) without an Olympic redshirt. Undefeated throughout college and also served as head coach four all four years.

 

Sidd Finch?

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

 

I mean how many 3 timers were at a different weight each time?   My guess would be not very many.  I could be wrong on that.  That might be a fun thing to look at if someone has the time to go there. 

 

mspart

You are not wrong. Among three timers in the freshman ineligible eras (100%ers), only Wayne Martin did the deed at three different weights. It was both very impressive and a bit of a technicality. In 1934 he won at 135, the third of eight weights. In 1935 he won at 145, the fourth of eight weights. In 1936 he won at 134, the second of seven weights. 1936 was an Olympic year and they would sometimes harmonize the weights and tournament structure with the Olympic weights and structure back then. 

A lot of three timers from that era won at two weights.

No three timer in the freshman eligible eras have won at more than two weights.

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Lee has lost more matches but has been much more dominant in terms of bonus point.  Dake lost fewer matches but put up less bonus.  He did take out David Taylor a bunch of times though and has an Olympic medal.

 

Who is the better NCAA 4x Champ?

Well, Lee's not a 4-timer, but I'll assume he is. I also will only compare Dake to Lee in College. 

I'll go with Dake...by a wide margin(margins get pretty slim in such rarified air)...but winning it at '41, '49, '57, '65 and some of the guys he beat along the way...it's just more impressive to me. 

I'm not sure I'd take Lee over Yianni. Both have Won Titles with torn ACLs. Yianni has a Silver Medal in Freestyle. Pretty big accomplishment. 

2 losses...one to Gomez, one to a guy who played 2,3,4,5. So...pretty good Wrestler. 

[Plasmodium]

People are counting Lee's chickens way before they are hatched.  Glory is on a vision quest.  24/7, He walks around with a copy of The Art of War that Sun Tzu personally autographed for him 2 years ago.  He has chapter 6 bookmarked and reads it every morning and night.

[dragit]

52 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

People are counting Lee's chickens way before they are hatched.  Glory is on a vision quest.  24/7, He walks around with a copy of The Art of War that Sun Tzu personally autographed for him 2 years ago.  He has chapter 6 bookmarked and reads it every morning and night.

It seems like a mutated vision quest and that he's actually avoiding competition.

My guess is that he thinks he won't make the final at 133 over a world silver medalist and a guy who has beaten that guy twice in the finals. 

So the play is to fight the weight battle, get a 2 or 3 seed and be on the other half of the draw from Shute, be well hydrated for Friday night and win the semis, cut hard overnight, weigh in, get over 140 for Saturday night, and hope for the best, or more likely that Shute tears whatever L's are still in his legs while marching to the final.

[flyingcement]

This ornery version of Lee is my favorite.  Seems the most authentic 

[Antitroll2828]

43 minutes ago, dragit said:

It seems like a mutated vision quest and that he's actually avoiding competition.

 

He did just beat an NCAA finalist the other day not exactly avoiding competition 

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

People are counting Lee's chickens way before they are hatched.  

[dragit]

While this cart is a couple of months ahead of its horse, I'll bite on the question, which at first I thought was silly - Dake, of course, but the more I thought about it, even though I am still firmly Dake, you can make some interesting arguments for Lee.

As I've argued in lots of these threads, I've got Dake as my best ever because no redshirt (won a title nine months after being a high school student), beat three different champs and a terrific wrestler (2x finalist, probably should have been 3x but for refs) in his finals, well in control of all his NCAA matches, went up a weight and went 3-0 against the defending and future Hodge winner, etc.  Though I've never understood why the usual first argument people make is the 4 weight classes in 4 years.  It's a nice nugget, but it's more trivia than substance; he won four championships against people who weighed the same, it's not like he made weight at 141 the day he beat Taylor.  

Lee has had several losses, including being pinned once, losing to Ronnie Bresser once, and getting outwrestled by Sebastian Rivera twice (and having Mueller take care of him before there could be a third meeting), and hasn't beaten competition as strong as Dake's in his finals.  He's missed a ton of matches with injuries.  The body of work isn't really comparable to Dake. 

But there are some notable intangibles.  He's put together a terrific record, with what I do think is going to end up with 4 titles, by overcoming a ludicrous series of major injuries, surgeries, and illnesses -- the depth of which are totally unchartered territory in the four-timer club (maybe even the two-timer club, any historians with a view on this?).  And in the limited windows when he's been fresh, he's been simply transcendent -- a comet lighting up huge crowds at NCAAs and Carver; always attacking; scoring, scoring, scoring; technically beautiful; insanely strong.  He generates a buzz like no one else because he's got talent and skill like no one else.  And he'll probably end up with three Hodges.  I wouldn't put him as my top 4 timer over Dake but I've got him in kind of a special exciting anti-wuss club of his own.

Edited January 17, 2023 by dragit