Should the U.S. be the best country in the world for men's freestyle wrestling?

[Scouts Honor]

9 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

And the USA has supplanted Russia and China to become the top gymnastic power. 
 

My son, who ended up wrestling, was coached by an Olympic gold medalist in gymnastics. I loved his coaches, but they weren’t Olympic gold medalists. 
 

I am not sure what the point is, other than there’s top quality gymnastics coaching throughout the US. 

im not sure we have the number of coaches for free/greco

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, Scouts Honor said:

im not sure we have the number of coaches for free/greco

You may be right, with all the resistance that we see. 

[Scouts Honor]

9 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

What is the “noose series?”

I probably have a different name. Legit curious. 

front head series 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, Scouts Honor said:

front head series 

Ok! I was thinking it might involve the neck!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I might be willing to start counting NF from neutral. That would be easy to do, and might be a way we could improve freestyle success without changing folk too much. Just get guys more aware of their own backs. 
 

Spencer Lee is one of the best scramblers in recent NCAA history according to Ben Askren  He never exposed. Sure, he lost a deciding scramble in the Olympics, but it could have gone either way  

Great scrambler, never exposes himself  

 

[AgaveMaria]

No. The US population and leadership don't have the desire to stick with anything long term. They talk and wave flags and then quickly move on to some other cause of the moment.

We lost our way when leadership failed to make Dan Gable the head of US efforts in International Wrestling.

[Wrestleknownothing]

13 hours ago, Le duke said:

Well, actually, the men got their teeth kicked in by several countries . The US men had one (1) individual gold.

Italy, Hungary and France had more men win gold than we did.

We were on par with Ireland, China, Australia, Romania and Germany.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not France.

 

[PortaJohn]

In my perfect world we would have a system where we'd keep college wrestling as is but incentivize high school wrestlers that  are freestyle studs (example Meyer Shapiro) to forego College Wrestling and train at a RTC on a college campus so they can still obtain a college degree.  The four to five years of folkstyle competition does hinder our development in freestyle at a very important age.  Look at 97kg.  Snyder lost to two studs. One a 22 year old and the other a 21 year old

Edited August 12 by PortaJohn

[1032004]

15 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

There has been a lot of discussion about whether the U.S. Men's Freestyle team underperformed, performed to expectations, or outperformed expectations.  I think the answer depends on how good you think U.S. Freestyle wrestling "should" be.  If the answer is that the U.S. should be in good years at best on par with Iran and still worse than Russia, then this was an average or good performance for the team.

I think we should be as good or better than Iran, but worse than Russia.    I think the performance was a slight underperformance.  I’ve seen people say if you go person by person it’s about what should have been expected which is fair, but I would say the fact that no one won gold was disappointing because they pretty much all had a chance to (except for maybe Zain).

You could make the argument that “the US should be the best!” for pretty much every sport.  I think the answer for why we shouldn’t is earnings potential of the athletes.  Let’s be honest, the top overall athletes are going to play football, basketball or baseball because they can make millions.   Whereas in Russia it seems some of the country’s best athletes are wrestlers.

[PortaJohn]

24 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I think we should be as good or better than Iran, but worse than Russia.    I think the performance was a slight underperformance.  I’ve seen people say if you go person by person it’s about what should have been expected which is fair, but I would say the fact that no one won gold was disappointing because they pretty much all had a chance to (except for maybe Zain).

You could make the argument that “the US should be the best!” for pretty much every sport.  I think the answer for why we shouldn’t is earnings potential of the athletes.  Let’s be honest, the top overall athletes are going to play football, basketball or baseball because they can make millions.   Whereas in Russia it seems some of the country’s best athletes are wrestlers.

Most countries also pay incentives to win Gold and a lot of the wrestling countries (including transfer countries w/Russian wrestlers) pay out.  This is what I found based on 2021 figures compared to 2024 US Gold medalist receive only $37.5k.  There is an article on Forbes on this subject but it's behind a paywall. Maybe someone on this forum has access to it

Iran - $295k

Azerbizian - $235k

Georgia - $318k

Bulgaria $99k

Hungary $150k

Greece $100k 

 

[Wildcat92]

Wrestling is like soccer in the US.  In soccer there is something like 2.5M participants at the youth level.  But we stink internationally (men).  Women just won the gold.  The issue is that the nation's best athletes are playing sports that pay.  This is especially true at the upper weights.  You won't convince me that there isn't a better athlete than Kyle Snyder at 97 KG in this country. 

There are any number of 213 lb WR's or RB's in the NFL that are better pure athletes than Kyle Snyder.  But they opted to play a sport that will make them millionaires many times over.  Same with men's soccer.  Our best athletes are not playing soccer.

[billyhoyle]

17 minutes ago, Wildcat92 said:

Wrestling is like soccer in the US.  In soccer there is something like 2.5M participants at the youth level.  But we stink internationally (men).  Women just won the gold.  The issue is that the nation's best athletes are playing sports that pay.  This is especially true at the upper weights.  You won't convince me that there isn't a better athlete than Kyle Snyder at 97 KG in this country. 

There are any number of 213 lb WR's or RB's in the NFL that are better pure athletes than Kyle Snyder.  But they opted to play a sport that will make them millionaires many times over.  Same with men's soccer.  Our best athletes are not playing soccer.

But neither are Russia’s or Irans. The best athletes in those countries are playing soccer. 

[WrestlingRasta]

US Olympic gold medal receives 250k from the dream fund. 

[1032004]

32 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

But neither are Russia’s or Irans. The best athletes in those countries are playing soccer. 

Is Russia any good at soccer?

According to Wikipedia: “Wrestling is the most accessible and played out sport for boys and young adults in Russia especially in the Caucasus Republics and regions (Chechnya, Dagestan, Karachay-Cherkessia, North-Ossetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, Ingushetia)”

[alex1fly]

IME with competition or performance settings you can design a perfect system and still not achieve the results you want. Likewise you can have an imperfect system and achieve the results you want. There’s always a human/luck element to it. Long way of saying USA *should* be top competitors given the history, resources, and culture. 

Edited August 12 by alex1fly

[Crotalus]

We have been spoiled lately with medal contenders, sometimes multiple, at every weight, including some of our best ever. But this year wasn't so much a snap back to reality as a straight-up underperformance. If you look at realistic ceiling vs floor expectations, we just about hit the floor at every weight. Spencer is really the only one who came in right in the middle.

[The_KC_Godfather]

I'm sure this has been discussed a million times and I just haven't been on the board regularly when it was, but where did folkstyle come from, and why does the US not eliminate it and focus on freestyle and greco from a young age, in HS, and in college? I believe every other country does this. If we did, I can't see how we wouldn't be the best in the world with the number of athletes that participate/US population vs. other countries.

[MJD]

USA spends 95% of wrestling energy, time and resources on folkstyle, so it's hard to maintain quality in freestyle. Most men don't get to work full time on freestyle till after college (if they aren't too banged up), which means that they are 23 - 24 years old. That's too old to have any consistent success. Physical prime starts to wane at 27. So, regrettably in my opinion, our wrestlers spend most if their prime years on folkstyle. I know a lot of people like folkstyle, but I really think we should introduce freestyle to college, too (and high school). There's really only a small number of schools competive in div 1, and one school dominates everything. Let them compete in folkstyle. They have the fans, they like it. Go for it. But introduce freestyle for the others. It just makes sense. Most div 1 school have very little chance of even getting an All-Amercian. They should switch. And maybe div 2 and div 3.

[BuckyBadger]

Does the US as a country have the ability to be the best in the world? Yes.

But the reason they aren’t consistently above the competition, like we are in basketball, is because wrestling is not even in the top 5 of sports that kids in this country pursue. Maybe not even 6-10. And on top of that, most wrestlers in this country don’t even wrestle freestyle!

While Iran/Russia/Georgia etc have a smaller total population, wrestling is much more popular there. In Iran I’m guessing it’s top 5 (maybe even top 3). In southern Russia (Dagestan, Chechnya, Ossetia) it might even be number 1. Wrestling is a big part of the culture in that part of the world. Even non-wrestlers over there follow the sport and feel invested in their success. That’s not true in the US.

I think another reason much poorer countries are able to do really well is because wrestling is a poor man’s sport. You really don’t need much in the way of equipment. It’s kind of like dirt poor East African countries that produce the best middle and long distance runners. It’s in their culture and you don’t need any significant resources to do very well.

Having said all that, the US results the last few cycles have been really good. We have been on the verge of being team champions. For a sport that probably is not even top 10 in terms of popularity here, we are holding our own and continue to produce many cadet/junior world champions. That was not the case 10+ years ago.

Edited August 12 by BuckyBadger

[PortaJohn]

25 minutes ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

I'm sure this has been discussed a million times and I just haven't been on the board regularly when it was, but where did folkstyle come from, and why does the US not eliminate it and focus on freestyle and greco from a young age, in HS, and in college? I believe every other country does this. If we did, I can't see how we wouldn't be the best in the world with the number of athletes that participate/US population vs. other countries.

Folk (US) wrestling morphed into what it is today centuries ago.  I believe it was first officially wrestled in college early 1900's in the Ivy league schools.  @cowcards, @Jason Bryant, & @gimpeltf are the guys on this forum that might know the actual histroy 

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

I'm sure this has been discussed a million times and I just haven't been on the board regularly when it was, but where did folkstyle come from, and why does the US not eliminate it and focus on freestyle and greco from a young age, in HS, and in college? I believe every other country does this. If we did, I can't see how we wouldn't be the best in the world with the number of athletes that participate/US population vs. other countries.

Time for an @Iwrite history lesson.

[JeanGuy]

4 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

In my perfect world we would have a system where we'd keep college wrestling as is but incentivize high school wrestlers that  are freestyle studs (example Meyer Shapiro) to forego College Wrestling and train at a RTC on a college campus so they can still obtain a college degree.  The four to five years of folkstyle competition does hinder our development in freestyle at a very important age.  Look at 97kg.  Snyder lost to two studs. One a 22 year old and the other a 21 year old

Especially the way scholastic stuff is going today. A 21-year-old might be a college Freshman. Lee is 25 and wrestling his first major Sr. level event. I know he had his own unusual circumstances with injuries, but the point is the same. Brooks is 24. You have Nolf stuck behind Dake and he is 28 and getting ready to time out. Messenbrink is already 21. It is hard to make up that time.

[Scouts Honor]

8 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

In my perfect world we would have a system where we'd keep college wrestling as is but incentivize high school wrestlers that  are freestyle studs (example Meyer Shapiro) to forego College Wrestling and train at a RTC on a college campus so they can still obtain a college degree.  The four to five years of folkstyle competition does hinder our development in freestyle at a very important age.  Look at 97kg.  Snyder lost to two studs. One a 22 year old and the other a 21 year old

and give up the NIL money? 

can usaW come up with taht? 

[Scouts Honor]

5 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

Does the US as a country have the ability to be the best in the world? Yes.

But the reason they aren’t consistently above the competition, like we are in basketball, is because wrestling is not even in the top 5 of sports that kids in this country pursue. Maybe not even 6-10. And on top of that, most wrestlers in this country don’t even wrestle freestyle!

While Iran/Russia/Georgia etc have a smaller total population, wrestling is much more popular there. In Iran I’m guessing it’s top 5 (maybe even top 3). In southern Russia (Dagestan, Chechnya, Ossetia) it might even be number 1. Wrestling is a big part of the culture in that part of the world. Even non-wrestlers over there follow the sport and feel invested in their success. That’s not true in the US.

I think another reason much poorer countries are able to do really well is because wrestling is a poor man’s sport. You really don’t need much in the way of equipment. It’s kind of like dirt poor East African countries that produce the best middle and long distance runners. It’s in their culture and you don’t need any significant resources to do very well.

Having said all that, the US results the last few cycles have been really good. We have been on the verge of being team champions. For a sport that probably is not even top 10 in terms of popularity here, we are holding our own and continue to produce many cadet/junior world champions. That was not the case 10+ years ago.

been saying this for years 

[GrandOlm]

6 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

 

While Iran/Russia/Georgia etc have a smaller total population, wrestling is much more popular there. In Iran I’m guessing it’s top 5 (maybe even top 3). In southern Russia (Dagestan, Chechnya, Ossetia) it might even be number 1. Wrestling is a big part of the culture in that part of the world. Even non-wrestlers over there follow the sport and feel invested in their success. That’s not true in the US.

 

All of Dagestan has a smaller population than Los Angeles (3 million) and Ossetians are a rare ethnic group that numbers about 500k in total on the planet. Chechens are kind of like Siberian Greco-Roman wrestlers, a couple famous examples but most definitely not the engine of the system (and most Chechens, including the most famous ethnic Chechen wrestler, were molded as Dagestan born not in Chechnya - Dagestan is multi ethnic).

There are over 250k high school male wrestlers in the US. I think the US has won the participation war already. It's training them up that's the issue. Look at what Askren is doing in Wisconsin.