All Star Classic

[RYou]

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Again, we need clarification on Olympic redshirt rules.  My understanding was you could not be enrolled and Olympic redshirt.  None of the Michigan guys who Olyshirted a few years ago were enrolled for that reason.

If that is the case, then Mesenbrink cannot Olyshirt.  He is enrolled and an 'official' member of the team, since he did certify.

Correct.  First it's not an Olympic redshirt, it's an Olympic Waiver.  The athlete cannot register with any school nor take online coursework for two terms, fall and spring, or equivalent quarters.

[nhs67]

2 hours ago, RYou said:

Correct.  First it's not an Olympic redshirt, it's an Olympic Waiver.  The athlete cannot register with any school nor take online coursework for two terms, fall and spring, or equivalent quarters.

It is an Olyshirt.

Term has been coined already.

[buckshot]

6 hours ago, RYou said:

Geez, why not make this PSU VS Best of the Rest?

That would make more sense. Every year the defending team champs wrestle a dual against an all-star team. 

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

I think it would be great to have some non-D1 guys out there competing at this event. There are a few handfuls who can go toe to toe with the D1ers. Missed opportunity here for NWCA.

[nhs67]

56 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I think it would be great to have some non-D1 guys out there competing at this event. There are a few handfuls who can go toe to toe with the D1ers. Missed opportunity here for NWCA.

Who?

[Alces Alces Gigas]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Who?

As of late, there have been very few D2 or D3 kids that were thought to have been able.to.compete.for the top 3-4 spots in D1.    Most have been HWTs and the last one of those was Fortune but in reality it was Tervel 

[nhs67]

9 minutes ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

As of late, there have been very few D2 or D3 kids that were thought to have been able.to.compete.for the top 3-4 spots in D1.    Most have been HWTs and the last one of those was Fortune but in reality it was Tervel 

The last one I thought that could hang was Joey Davis.  The year he went and won it at 184lbs he got beat by an Alex Dieringer that won 165lb title in that season in a 180lb catchweight.

Joey was a four timer at 165, 174, 174 and 184 respectively from 2012-13 to 2015-16 and lost 9-0.  While he did put up good defense, he didn't really have anything for offense.

I have read different sources that say it was 180lbs and 175lbs so I am not sure which one to believe.  It was Freestyle, too, and not Folk.

 

[nhs67]

We do have another recent example of a guy who also couldn't hang with the elite.

I mean this will all due respect when I say this: Ryan Vasbinder of Michigan State was a DII 197lb champ with McKendry and he lost to Caffey, Davison, and Brucki in his lone D1 action at 197 in one tournament.

[lu1979]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:08 PM, Gus said:

Does Mesenbrink have a regular redshirt available?

NHS67 said yep to this - I am pretty sure the answer is no - last season MM was RS at Cal Baptist - I don't think he can take another regular RS.

[lu1979]

I should have kept reading the thread before replying

[lu1979]

23 hours ago, Le duke said:

It's not an official match, so yes, he'd be eligible to RS.

He has both a normal AND OLY RS available.

Both Messenbrink and Haines certified at "165", so between 157 and 165. Given that neither of them has made the move to get big enough to be a full-feed 165, I'm guessing one of them is taking a RS, and that Facundo will be the 165 this year.

If MM is beating Facundo soundly in the room and the PSU coaching staff thinks he can be a contender for the National title at 165 why not start him there? He certainly looked big enough when he blow torched his way through the 163 lb JR FS bracket.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, lu1979 said:

NHS67 said yep to this - I am pretty sure the answer is no - last season MM was RS at Cal Baptist - I don't think he can take another regular RS.

I never said YEP to MM having a redshirt.  I have been adamant that he doesn't because he did redshirt last year.  I am not as stupid as I look.

He IS eligible for an Olyshirt, though.  That said, he is already enrolled so he cannot do that either.

[MPhillips]

On 10/30/2023 at 5:01 PM, RYou said:

First it's not an Olympic redshirt, it's an Olympic Waiver.

 

5 hours ago, lu1979 said:

NHS67 said yep to this - I am pretty sure the answer is no

 

3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I am not as stupid as I look.

Bro? Cats can't wait to correct you...

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

 

 

Bro? Cats can't wait to correct you...

Trying to set him up for success.

[ionel]

7 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I am not as stupid as I look.

You sure about that?

[Wrestleknownothing]

11 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I never said YEP to MM having a redshirt.  I have been adamant that he doesn't because he did redshirt last year.  I am not as stupid as I look.

He IS eligible for an Olyshirt, though.  That said, he is already enrolled so he cannot do that either.

Are you sure about this enrollment thing? I cannot find anything that says that you cannot take an Olympic redshirt if you are enrolled. And guys like Snyder and Kolodzik pulled their Olympic redshirts late in the season to wrestle college matches implying they were already enrolled.

[gimpeltf]

47 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Are you sure about this enrollment thing? I cannot find anything that says that you cannot take an Olympic redshirt if you are enrolled. And guys like Snyder and Kolodzik pulled their Olympic redshirts late in the season to wrestle college matches implying they were already enrolled.

It's always fun to try to read through the D1 manual. I liken it to trying to read James Joyce's Ulysses (not that I have). Both around 500 pages of gibberish.

I believe those two individuals (and Jordan Wood at Lehigh during Covid year) were not enrolled first semester then enrolled second.

14.4.3.7 Waivers of Progress-Toward-Degree Rule. The Division I Progress-Toward-Degree Waivers Committee
shall establish appropriate criteria for waivers of this legislation. The following waivers shall be administered by the
8/10/23 160 conference members of the Association or, in the case of an independent institution, by the Division I Progress-Toward- Degree Waivers Committee. (Revised: 1/9/96, 10/28/97, 4/27/00, 10/31/02 effective 8/1/03, 3/10/04, 4/28/05, 1/17/09 effective 8/1/09, 1/14/12, 5/22/13, 3/27/18, 1/22/20, 1/22/20)
(b) International Competition. The credit hours required under the progress-toward-degree regulation of Bylaws
14.4.3.1 and 14.4.3.6-(c) may be prorated at nine hours per term of actual attendance during an academic year in
which a student is not enrolled for a term or terms or is unable to complete a term as a full-time student as a result of
participation in the Pan American Games, Parapan American Games, Olympic Games, Paralympic Games, World
Championships, World Cup, FIFA U-20 World Cup, World University Games (Universiade) or World University
Championships (including final tryouts and the officially recognized training program that directly qualifies
participants for those tryouts). This waiver provision may be applied to not more than two semesters or three quarters.
Credits earned by the student during the term or terms to which the waiver applies may be used to satisfy the 24-/36-
hour [see Bylaw 14.4.3.1-(a)], percentage-of-degree (see Bylaw 14.4.3.2) and grade-point average requirements (see
Bylaw 14.4.3.3). However, a term to which an international competition waiver applies does not count as a term of
full-time enrollment for purposes of the 24/36 credit-hour requirement, percentage-of-degree requirements or gradepoint average requirements.
14.4.3.8 Waiver -- Olympic or Paralympic Games. The Division I Progress-Toward-Degree Waivers Committee may
waive this general progress-toward-degree requirement for any participant in the Olympic or Paralympic Games, who
because of such participation, may lose eligibility for practice and competition in any sport. (Adopted: 10/31/02 effective
8/1/03, Revised: 1/22/20)

[Wrestleknownothing]

4 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

It's always fun to try to read through the D1 manual. I liken it to trying to read James Joyce's Ulysses (not that I have). Both around 500 pages of gibberish.

I believe those two individuals (and Jordan Wood at Lehigh during Covid year) were not enrolled first semester then enrolled second.

14.4.3.7 Waivers of Progress-Toward-Degree Rule. The Division I Progress-Toward-Degree Waivers Committee
shall establish appropriate criteria for waivers of this legislation. The following waivers shall be administered by the
8/10/23 160 conference members of the Association or, in the case of an independent institution, by the Division I Progress-Toward- Degree Waivers Committee. (Revised: 1/9/96, 10/28/97, 4/27/00, 10/31/02 effective 8/1/03, 3/10/04, 4/28/05, 1/17/09 effective 8/1/09, 1/14/12, 5/22/13, 3/27/18, 1/22/20, 1/22/20)
(b) International Competition. The credit hours required under the progress-toward-degree regulation of Bylaws
14.4.3.1 and 14.4.3.6-(c) may be prorated at nine hours per term of actual attendance during an academic year in
which a student is not enrolled for a term or terms or is unable to complete a term as a full-time student as a result of
participation in the Pan American Games, Parapan American Games, Olympic Games, Paralympic Games, World
Championships, World Cup, FIFA U-20 World Cup, World University Games (Universiade) or World University
Championships (including final tryouts and the officially recognized training program that directly qualifies
participants for those tryouts). This waiver provision may be applied to not more than two semesters or three quarters.
Credits earned by the student during the term or terms to which the waiver applies may be used to satisfy the 24-/36-
hour [see Bylaw 14.4.3.1-(a)], percentage-of-degree (see Bylaw 14.4.3.2) and grade-point average requirements (see
Bylaw 14.4.3.3). However, a term to which an international competition waiver applies does not count as a term of
full-time enrollment for purposes of the 24/36 credit-hour requirement, percentage-of-degree requirements or gradepoint average requirements.
14.4.3.8 Waiver -- Olympic or Paralympic Games. The Division I Progress-Toward-Degree Waivers Committee may
waive this general progress-toward-degree requirement for any participant in the Olympic or Paralympic Games, who
because of such participation, may lose eligibility for practice and competition in any sport. (Adopted: 10/31/02 effective
8/1/03, Revised: 1/22/20)

A regulation only James Joyce could love, but it makes my point. It says may not must in all key areas, and it discusses how to treat credits earned if still enrolled while taking the waiver.

So while it may be practical to not be enrolled, it is not required.

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

A regulation only James Joyce could love, but it makes my point. It says may not must in all key areas, and it discusses how to treat credits earned if still enrolled while taking the waiver.

So while it may be practical to not be enrolled, it is not required.

I thought the process was updated to go in front of a waiver approval committee? It's hard keeping track of so many changes in just the past 7 years.

[Wrestleknownothing]

29 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

I thought the process was updated to go in front of a waiver approval committee? It's hard keeping track of so many changes in just the past 7 years.

Yes, that is in the passage gimpel quoted even if you need a lawyer's lawyer to decipher it.

But the way I read it is that the committee is there to approve a waiver to the "Progress Toward Degree Rule" if you decide not to enroll. They are not approving the use of an Olympic redshirt.

The waiver rule also refers to "Credits earned by the student during the term or terms to which the waiver applies", implying that a student can be enrolled while using the waiver for an Olympic redshirt.

[Le duke]

As to the lack of Iowa partipants at the All-Star Classic, here are some gems from HR/GIA:

"Iowa isn’t gonna help promote an event at state college"

"Woods was going to wrestle Alirez but Alirez is taking an ORS and hasn't been training folkstyle. So Woods decided against competing" 

It's during the week between Oregon State and ISU.

"easy to be supportive when it's in your home gym"  (talking about Penn State)

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, Le duke said:

As to the lack of Iowa partipants at the All-Star Classic, here are some gems from HR/GIA:

"Iowa isn’t gonna help promote an event at state college"

"Woods was going to wrestle Alirez but Alirez is taking an ORS and hasn't been training folkstyle. So Woods decided against competing" 

It's during the week between Oregon State and ISU.

We were betting on it being in Iowa City and lost the bet.

"easy to be supportive when it's in your home gym"  (talking about Penn State)

ftfy   

Edited November 1, 2023 by ionel

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

32 minutes ago, Le duke said:

As to the lack of Iowa partipants at the All-Star Classic, here are some gems from HR/GIA:

"Iowa isn’t gonna help promote an event at state college"

"Woods was going to wrestle Alirez but Alirez is taking an ORS and hasn't been training folkstyle. So Woods decided against competing" 

It's during the week between Oregon State and ISU.

"easy to be supportive when it's in your home gym"  (talking about Penn State)

Don't you mean "party pants?"

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

On 10/31/2023 at 6:49 AM, nhs67 said:

Who?

Abney and Streck from Central Oklahoma

Burkes at Central Missouri

Blubaugh from Indianapolis

Abdullaev from Menlo

One to two others might hang.

That being said, yes, there is a sizeable drop-off from Division to division, but that doesn't mean that ALL non-D1 guys are scrubs.

[nhs67]

6 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

Abney and Streck from Central Oklahoma

Burkes at Central Missouri

Blubaugh from Indianapolis

Abdullaev from Menlo

One to two others might hang.

That being said, yes, there is a sizeable drop-off from Division to division, but that doesn't mean that ALL non-D1 guys are scrubs.

Abney wouldn't compete at 197 in D1 NCAA this year.

Streck definitely wouldn't.  Have you been seeing him lose repeatedly in the Freestyle circuit?  He has been.  He isn't on the level.

Burkes is 12W-3L in three total seasons... are you basing him being able to compete off of his 10-3 Decision loss to Iowa State's Cabanban or...?

Blubaugh?  If Abney isn't competing, the he isn't either.  Have you seen how fckn deep 197 is this year?  There was a recent D2 197lber who didn't do anything at the D1 level.  He was even more dominant as a D2 champ, in Ryan Vasbinder.

Abdullaev isn't even listed on Menlo's roster.

I am all for D2 and D3 competing... there is nothing stopping them from entering the MSU open (Notre Dame used to go there).  I know D1 programs don't like to schedule for duals... but there are plenty of individual tournaments that would be happy to have UNK or Grandview or any of these other smaller division programs.  Midlands?!  What about Midlands?