Top ten US freestylers of all time

[WrestlingRasta]

2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

If we are going to do the “If not for (fill in the blank wrestler)”, why not do, if not for Sadulaev, Snyder would be indisputable GOAT American wrestler?

Agreed

[skandar]

6 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I can understand a debate between ranking Dake and Taylor now. However, what is the possible justification for people putting Taylor over Snyder? Margin of victory or recency bias are the only reasons I could think of. Snyder has same number of world golds, same number of Olympic gold and more medals overall. Plus an all time great in Sadulaev that prevented him from winning a bunch more golds. And he did it all at a younger age than DT. 

In fact, Kyle is about the exact age right now that David was when David won his first world title.

Edited September 19, 2023 by skandar

[Paul158]

27 minutes ago, skandar said:

In fact, Kyle is about the exact age right now that David was when David won his first world title.

I think very few people realize Snyder won his first World Gold medal at 19. He had just finished his true freshman year, The next year  his true sophomore year he won Olympic Gold at 20  years old. I think he has won 9 medals so far. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Paul158
missed a word

[fishbane]

2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

If we are going to do the “If not for (fill in the blank wrestler)”, why not do, if not for Sadulaev, Snyder would be indisputable GOAT American wrestler?

I thought that was what you did to start all this. You are going in circles.

6 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I can understand a debate between ranking Dake and Taylor now. However, what is the possible justification for people putting Taylor over Snyder? Margin of victory or recency bias are the only reasons I could think of. Snyder has same number of world golds, same number of Olympic gold and more medals overall. Plus an all time great in Sadulaev that prevented him from winning a bunch more golds. And he did it all at a younger age than DT. 

So Sadulaev preventing Snyder from winning more golds is a valid point, but Taylor preventing Yazdani from winning more titles is an "if not for" that should not be considered?  I can't say I see the distinction.  In my mind you said that about Sadulaev to try and make the point that Snyder has the same # of titles, more overall medals, and against better competition than Taylor.  I attempted to rebut that by pointing out how great Yazdani has been (4 titles, 9 medals, 3 weights, only 3 losses outside of Taylor, 3 wins over 2x champ Ghasempour, no losses outside of Taylor in nearly 8 years) and that if Taylor had lost to him with the frequency that Snyder has lost to Sadulaev he would be considered in the top 5 or so all-time like Sadulaev is.  He is objectively one of the top 10 freestyle wrestlers of the past 25 years.

Compare Snyder's career and Yazdani's. They are almost the same.  Both started competing on the senior level in 2015 have won 1 OG, 1 OS, 3 WG, 3 WS, 1WB - very similar stuff.  Yazdani has one more world silver at a non-Olympic weight (70kg) and Snyder has another world bronze at 97kg.  The big difference is that Yazdani is more consistent and loses a lot less.  8 losses in 8 years and 5 of them to Taylor.  Snyder has lost a lot more in that time and not just to Sadulaev.  Taylor is Yazdani's Sadulaev.

[Eagle26]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I thought that was what you did to start all this. You are going in circles.

So Sadulaev preventing Snyder from winning more golds is a valid point, but Taylor preventing Yazdani from winning more titles is an "if not for" that should not be considered?  I can't say I see the distinction.  In my mind you said that about Sadulaev to try and make the point that Snyder has the same # of titles, more overall medals, and against better competition than Taylor.  I attempted to rebut that by pointing out how great Yazdani has been (4 titles, 9 medals, 3 weights, only 3 losses outside of Taylor, 3 wins over 2x champ Ghasempour, no losses outside of Taylor in nearly 8 years) and that if Taylor had lost to him with the frequency that Snyder has lost to Sadulaev he would be considered in the top 5 or so all-time like Sadulaev is.  He is objectively one of the top 10 freestyle wrestlers of the past 25 years.

Compare Snyder's career and Yazdani's. They are almost the same.  Both started competing on the senior level in 2015 have won 1 OG, 1 OS, 3 WG, 3 WS, 1WB - very similar stuff.  Yazdani has one more world silver at a non-Olympic weight (70kg) and Snyder has another world bronze at 97kg.  The big difference is that Yazdani is more consistent and loses a lot less.  8 losses in 8 years and 5 of them to Taylor.  Snyder has lost a lot more in that time and not just to Sadulaev.  Taylor is Yazdani's Sadulaev.

That’s fair. However, the distinction is that I was adding it as an afterthought. In other words, I think Snyder is ahead objectively by his hardware, PLUS, he had Sadulaev. I didn’t say it wasn’t a valid point that you made about Yazdani. It is valid. I’m saying it’s my opinion that in this particular situation, it shouldn’t vault Taylor over Snyder because if you apply the same principle to Snyder, he would be like an 8x world champ! 
 

That said I agree it’s pretty incredible that Taylor has basically become “Yazdani’s Sadulaev”. FWIW, I think Taylor will pass Snyder next year when he wins a second Olympic Gold. I hope Snyder does too and then he’d stay above him, but I think that’s a lot less likely. 

[Plasmodium]

Kemp doesn’t belong on the list because he didn’t win the Olympics.  

[lu_alum]

6 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

If we are going to do the “If not for (fill in the blank wrestler)”, why not do, if not for Sadulaev, Snyder would be indisputable GOAT American wrestler?

Losses to Sadulaev aside.  Snyder has too many "bad losses" to be considered the GOAT American.

[WrestlingRasta]

2 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Losses to Sadulaev aside.  Snyder has too many "bad losses" to be considered the GOAT American.

His only senior losses are to world medalists. 
 

JB, Smith, and Bruce all dropped matches to Americans….while in their primes. 

[WrestlingRasta]

Just now, WrestlingRasta said:

His only senior losses are to world medalists. 
 

JB, Smith, and Bruce all dropped matches to Americans….while in their primes. 

I take that back. I don’t think Boultakaev is a world medalist. But a roided up Boultakaev beat defending world and Olympic champs back to back that day. 

[ionel]

5 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

 
 

JB, Smith, and Bruce all dropped matches to Americans….while in their primes. 

 Can you give us the who and when?

Edited September 20, 2023 by ionel

[Gus]

40 minutes ago, ionel said:

 Can you give us the who and when?

JB to Dake, Smith to Randy Lewis 

[ionel]

Just now, Gus said:

JB to Dake, Smith to Randy Lewis 

Didn't Marsteller also beat JB?  Also Lewis was a pretty good wrestler and believe he only took 1 of the 3 for qualifying? And  wasn't Smith's loss to Lewis his first go at making team?

[Gus]

18 minutes ago, ionel said:

Didn't Marsteller also beat JB?  Also Lewis was a pretty good wrestler and believe he only took 1 of the 3 for qualifying? And  wasn't Smith's loss to Lewis his first go at making team?

Yeah I was thinking of the Dake loss more as in JB’s prime. Unless I am not recalling properly I believe that the Lewis loss for John Smith was when John was in his prime. He already had a world title when he lost to Randy I think. But you are correct that he went in to beat him best two of three to win the spot. 

[de4856]

Big Bruce has 13 World and Olympic medals so he’s number one in my book. That’s over a decade of dominance. 
JB or John Smith, it’s a coin toss do you go with the perfect 6 in a row or do you go with JB’s number of titles and medals. I think it’s JB, he’s just put himself out there longer. Now it gets kind of murky, you could argue Snyder, David Schultz, Taylor, Dake, Kemp, and a few others. But right now it’s Snyder for me, but I think that could change in 2024, if Taylor and Dake win Gold. But Snyder has 2 Olympic medals, along with 3 World titles, and  a few Silver and Bronze medals to go with that. So he like JB have just been out there standing the test of time, and still winning. 
Now one poster mentioned Adeline Gray, obviously a great wrestler, and maybe our greatest female wrestler, but I think the ladies should have their own list. 

[WrestlingRasta]

7 hours ago, ionel said:

 Can you give us the who and when?

Bruce lost to Tom Erickson, albeit I believe just once but right in the middle of his run. 
 

Smith lost to Lewis and John Fisher. 
 

JB lost to Dake, Marstellar, and Nick Marabel. 

[MJD]

 

Top 5

1. John Smith (2x Olympian, 2x Gold)

2. Bruce Baumgartner (4x Olympian, 2x Gold, Silver and Bronze)

3. Jordan Burroughs (2x Olympian, 1x Gold, 1x DNP)

4. David Taylor (1x Olympian, 1x Gold)

5. Kyle Dake (1x Olympian, 1x Bronze)

 

 

 

[Tripnsweep]

8 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

His only senior losses are to world medalists. 
 

JB, Smith, and Bruce all dropped matches to Americans….while in their primes. 

During his run of World/Olympic teams Bruce never lost to an American. I think his streak was 13 years. He lost to non Americans during that time though. Tom Erickson was sometimes the #2 heavyweight in the world but could never beat him for the spot on the World/Olympic team. 

[jchapman]

4 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Bruce lost to Tom Erickson, albeit I believe just once but right in the middle of his run. 
 

Smith lost to Lewis and John Fisher. 
 

JB lost to Dake, Marstellar, and Nick Marabel. 

Didn't JB lose one match to Martinez in 2019? 

[jchapman]

3 hours ago, MJD said:

 

Top 5

1. John Smith (2x Olympian, 2x Gold)

2. Bruce Baumgartner (4x Olympian, 2x Gold, Silver and Bronze)

3. Jordan Burroughs (2x Olympian, 1x Gold, 1x DNP)

4. David Taylor (1x Olympian, 1x Gold)

5. Kyle Dake (1x Olympian, 1x Bronze)

 

 

 

 

Where do you rank these 2X Olympic Finalists?

Kyle Snyder (2X Olympian, 1 Gold, 1 Silver)

Ben Peterson (3X* Olympian, 1 Gold, 1 Silver, 1 Boycott)

John Peterson (2X Olympian, 1 Gold, 1Silver)

Kenny Monday (2X Olympian, 1 Gold, 1 Silver)

George Mehnert (2X Olympian, 2 Golds)

[bnwtwg]

16 hours ago, fishbane said:

Taylor is Yazdani's Sadulaev.

Perfectly stated. 4 all-timers and not everyone can win.

[bnwtwg]

12 hours ago, lu_alum said:

Losses to Sadulaev aside.  Snyder has too many "bad losses" to be considered the GOAT American.

Don't punish Snyder for showing up to tournaments other than worlds unless you want to hold equal weight for Taylor and Yazdani for not competing.

Bruce took many losses yet many hold him as the best because of duration. Smith took losses *during* tournaments he won yet many revere him as the best. Burroughs didn't medal in '16, took a few domestic losses, and didn't make the team in '20ne or 23 yet he is considered the top American.

It's all subjective and there is no right answer, only 9 months of banter until Paris

Edited September 20, 2023 by bnwtwg

[WrestlingRasta]

1 hour ago, jchapman said:

Didn't JB lose one match to Martinez in 2019? 

Gomez?  They’ve had some good battles, gotten chippy a couple times. Can’t remember if Gomez got him once though. 

[fishbane]

15 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

I take that back. I don’t think Boultakaev is a world medalist. But a roided up Boultakaev beat defending world and Olympic champs back to back that day. 

Boultakaev has a bronze medal from 2013 worlds.

[fishbane]

14 hours ago, Gus said:

Yeah I was thinking of the Dake loss more as in JB’s prime. Unless I am not recalling properly I believe that the Lewis loss for John Smith was when John was in his prime. He already had a world title when he lost to Randy I think. But you are correct that he went in to beat him best two of three to win the spot. 

Smith dropped 1 in the best 2 of 3 to Lewis in 1988.  This was the year after Smith won his first title.  This is probably pretty analogous to when Snyder dropped 1 in a best 2 out of 3 to Varner at the 2016 Trials.  In both cases a younger wrestler coming off their first world title dropped 1 match in a best 2 out of 3 against a US gold medalist from 4 years ago.  Though Varner's win over Snyder was on Criteria. 

Varner and Snyder wrestled more than that series.  I think Varner had unretired a year earlier and Snyder swept that series 2-0 and they wrestled at the finals of the US Open once also won by Snyder.  Overall Snyder was 5-1 against Varner.  Not sure how many times Smith and Lewis met.

Burroughs American freestyle losses were 2007 to Teyon Ware at University Nationals, 2013 to Marable in an international tournament, 2017 to Dake in a best 2 of 3 at the WTT, 2019 to Imar in a best 2 of 3 at Final X, 2021 to David Taylor at a the Flo Event at 86kg, 2021 to Dake 0-2 in best 2 of 3 at the OTT, 2022 1x to Marsteller in a best 2 of 3 at Final x, and 2023 2x to Marsteller in a best 2 of 3 at Final X.  In total there were 10 freestyle losses to Americans all in domestic tournaments except Marable.  The "prime" losses are probably the 2013 loss to Marable, and the 2017 loss to Dake, both of those were on criteria (4-4 and 6-6) which wasn't really a thing when Smith, and Baumgartner were competing. 

[Barracuda141]

15 hours ago, ionel said:

 Can you give us the who and when?

In his prime, JB also lost to Nick Marable