scourge165

I never said...nor inferred they were in the same weight or same year, I was pointing out the Midlands were a tougher tournament back then and cited one anecdotal example of a guy who wrestled in and won the tournament several more times after his Collegiate career ended. I went to a school who was in my grade and born 2 years and 6 months before me. He was my same grade. A lot of things go into that. As long as you're still winning age-level World Medals, you're fine. I do feel like in College you start to get to the point of diminishing returns year 6 or when you're 24/25. You're not as fresh, you've got beaten up more. You have a bigger target. This could be a lot of the Iowa 'runs their guys into the ground,' basis. Because they've had some guys transfer and as happens, you inevitably get beat up. Lot of pressure on this kid. A kid who's REALLY really good, but who is arguably 3rd in his class(Again, Forrest and Ross...who'd be my #1 if he choose Wrestling).

I was wondering when Fried would get mentioned. I think Kolat was a better HS Wrestler, but...Fried was a freak as well. I think these things are relative. Bassett did worst at some of these Sr Level tournaments than his own HS teammate(in fairness...Forrest is pretty damn good as well). But it's more common now to see a HS kid beat an absolute hammer and high AA/NC. Mirasola beat Dean and in his first year of College, he lost 10-1 to Josh Barr. Blaze has some pretty damn impressive notches on his belt. When Kolat and Fried were doing it, it was a helluva lot more rare. Probably because the best of the best in this sport are...getting better each year and the year 'round Wrestling and high level coaching is great for them, but I think it's important. Chris Phillips was right there with Kyle Snyder as the best SINCE Kolat/Fried to me...though not it's just too hard to measure. They're all really good. Only one correction(not to you, from an earlier post), Phillips wasn't a Freshman losing to a Sr Ruth. I'm about 90% sure he lost in the Ironman as a Soph to the Jr Ruth and then came back and avenged him the following year. I also don't lost the comments kinda inferring Phillips was a disappointment. I mean, sure, I was disappointed I didn't get to see him Wrestle, but far as I know, that was just a personal choice and he didn't Wrestle because he was burned out. I thought he paid his own way and went back and worked on the farm or something, but not like he got into trouble and threw it away. I'm fine with that. In fact, I have more respect for that. If you're burned out/sick of Wrestling, whatever it is, you don't love the sport, don't take up a scholarship.

Kolat took 3rd at Midlands back when it was often tougher than the NCAAs. When you'd get guys like Joe Williams Wrestling there for years after or...whoever, Sr level wrestlers just entering to Wrestle.

Cardenas is a former Cornell Wrestler. I'm told they're smart. He's also a Sr and he's wrestled 3 NCAA Tournaments already. If the expectation is for you to do your best coaching yelling to your Wrestlers while Wrestling...that's pretty unrealistic.

Yes...because Starocci isn't boring, he's just dominant. I don't think Starocci is that much more talented for a 184 than I think Bartlett is for a 141...I think it's in the mentality and Starocci is supremely confident(he's extremely arrogant as well, but it serves him well). Bartlett should be crushing dudes and he's content to win a duel by a point.

Yup...I'd only amend what I said to say, obviously, when I say "overmatched," it's just because he's a natural '84(if not '74). But he's been competitive with AA-caliber athletes save for the #1 ranked '97 in the Country.

How good but totally over-matched he is at '97... Let him go '84 for the NEXT 4 years; he has a chance to compete next year at '84. I think he could maybe AA this year, but not win it. Glad they made the decision to RS him.

Yeah, NOT in response to you. In response to this comment; Using Brooks, Nickal, J'Den Cox...and then Hidlay who didn't win it and Snyder. Hardly shocking that multiple time Champs are going to have the most success their Sr years or have a higher bonus rate(and I also pointed out Starocci was doing the same thing...as is O'Toole and Haines and I'd guess MOST returning champs). It's sure as hell proving my point more than they do better when going down...

How am I being dramatic? Literally your words; So you NEVER said him going to 197 was reasonable...but you said it "wasn't unrealistic?" And that's ME being dramatic? Ok...and I corrected that already...so not sure why you're back on that. So...do we need to do this again? Well, that's just Math. 285-197 What's the difference in weight there? 88 pounds. Is that "about" 90 pounds? But sure, then Kerkvliet, Stevenson, they're not full-sized HWTs. Yeah, I didn't really dismiss it in text, but I AM dismissing the idea that Parris losing in HS to Cassioppi in HS was ever going to make him go down...which you both said "wasn't unrealistic," and then said I was being dramatic. I guess if someone says going down a weight is "realistic" then I think it's reasonable...but I'm just using your words here. He was LITERALLY using the 2023 Champs! I don't kno how much more black and white that one can possibly be. He showed a list of the 2023 National Champs...and Haines took what place in 2023? So I'm not cherry picking anything, I was directly responding to HIS examples. So when he uses O'Connor as the 157LB Champ from 2023...why are you possibly complaining that I'm doing "the Haines bit," and "correcting" me that he was a champ? I know he was a Champ, but he was very specifically using the year he WASN'T a champ. Dude...you brought up a High School match between Cassiopi and Parris as a reason why it "wasn't unreasonable" for Parris to go down to 197, then complained I was being "dramatic," claiming you never said it was "reasonable" for him to Wrestle '97 and finally when I referred to Haines as "the runner up" when he used the 2023 Champs, claimed I was "cherry picking" information. What's the definable term for that?

No...'I poop my pants-haha-whatever,' huh? I always thought they were Brothers. Ok then. I supposed they'd have been mentioned earlier. I generally think it's weird that Brothers(close in age) go to different schools(maybe weird isn't the right word, but I expect them to go to the same school). I guess the recent exception being Marcus Blaze...with all due respect to Purdue, I did not think he'd end up in Indiana. Speaking of which...how good is Keegan Bassett? I know he's a Freshmen, but he's done some pretty impressive things, hasn't he?

Well...it's not in the title, but it's in the first paragraph; So keeping with the theme, I'd throw the Pritzlaff's out there. Donny...stud, 2X, 4X AA Glenn-1NC, 2X AA. I mean, if it's just guys who Wrestled at different schools at some point, it's the Schultz brothers.

Right...which is the argument for closing the gap between '97 and HWT. And the post I was responding to was from '23 when O'Connor won it and Haines was the runner-up...that's why I said "From this year." Because O'Connor was the guy listed as the champ. I also don't care what Parris Wrestled in HS. Could he have gone down? I guess...but he was a pretty healthy sized HWT. Perhaps not 6'5, I see him listed at 6'2 or 6'3, I may have conflated him and Coon a bit, but the point remains, he was a normal size HWT. I don't know what him and Cassioppi have to do with it, but...alright. He got "ragdolled" by Cassioppi. Him cutting down to '97 I imagine would have been miserable. You think 4-5 years at '97 was just as reasonable a weight for him as HWT? This is all a LOT less important to me than the larger argument that going up weight classes is better and guys have more success doing that rather than cutting and going down a weight class.

Did...did you just start this with "Lol wut?" Am I texting with a teenage girl or are we talking about Men's Wrestling? If Jordan Burroughs Wrestles 149, then 157 and finally 165, I think he makes my point. There's no "technicality" to be violated. I think going up...helps you more in Wrestling. You think cutting or staying the same helps you. I don't agree and I feel like all your listing of just the champs is helping my case and you somehow think it's helping yours. You can argue that Bastida has been better at HWT...despite not placing there the last two years after a 5th at 197(and other extenuating circumstances like being a Cuban immigrant who'd never Wrestled Folkstyle) but I can't use...Levi Haines or Keegan O'Toole or Starocci, Brooks, Kasak(I don't mean to be listing PSU guys, but your list is from the last 5 years)? How's that make sense? This started with the premise that '97 was such a weak weight class Bo friggin Nickal and Aaron Brooks had better bonus points % up there. I argued...that's normal. Guys get better as they get older and as they go up. You argued...what you've argued. They do better when they go down or stay at the same weight. I really think we can wipe that last part off the table now. The guys who cut down a weight and do better pale in comparison and they're guys like Nick Pell who was at '84 because Woodley and Askren were at '65/'74 or Poeta or outliers. They're pretty rare. So no, in NO world does it "make more sense" to look at ONE tournament out of kids career. Stay on a singular point then. That'd "help" me out the most. I honestly don't even know what you're doing going year to year and using just champs. I honestly feel like each time you post, you're making my point. And...to be clear, you really find his to be compelling? Using the year Aaron Brooks takes a 1st, KNOWING he's going to go up to 197 and ONLY using Champs? I don't get the point of this...why we're using one-year snapshots when the whole point is how they do over their careers? That's my entire argument. Growing, adding weight, and going up weights makes for better Wrestlers than cutting. Seems like a pretty full-sized HWT. More so than a guy like Hilger who was weighing 215 and then had power though a 12,000 calorie-a-day diet to be able to Wrestle HWT without giving up 30-40 pounds to the bigger HWTs. He also looked heavier than Stevenson to me...and he was in the 260s. So...I don't know if he was 250 or 265, but yeah, I'd say he was a full-sized HWT. Not sure what YOU'D consider a full-size HWT, but I struggle to see how Parris doesn't fit the definition...unless we're being painfully literal and using just guys who weigh in at 284.9.

You on TikTok by chance? I mean, even if you're not, who cares, your information is out there, but if you're on TikTok...it'd make it that much funnier. Read there TOS.

Ok...so O'Toole is now at '74 and the winner of '74 is almost certainly going to be him or the runner-up at '57 from this year(possibly Hamiti who wrestled '65 his entire career). Starocci is the heavy favorite at '84, up a weight. Brooks already won it '97 Parris was a 6'5 full-sized HWT who was never going to Wrestle 197 and exactly the type of guy who makes it THAT much harder for a '97 to move up and why it takes a rare guy like Snyder to do so. I feel like if I was a Lawyer...this is where I'd say...case closed.

Ok...well, disagree. I think most guys, especially the top guys go up at least one weight during their career and ultimately have more success at the higher weight. I think HWT is the hardest as you've got a ~90 pound difference in weight limits and...that's about it. Otherwise I'm just repeating myself that I think guys do better going up in weight. I wouldn't say he hurts it. He took a 5th in a year beating two guys who were 7-5 in the #37 seed from Stanford, Howard, the #22 seed who was 7-6 and then beat Taylor Lamonto prace out twice(a guy who was an AA at both 125, then moved up to 133 and was an AA again and is now at 141 and doing just fine. I'm going to end it here and...then really be done because I don't care to parse out the difference in Lamont Wrestling '25, taking a 6th, then not placing and then coming back in '23 with a better record, higher bonus rate at '33 and losing a 2-1 TB to Mendez and a 8-5 match to Vito(when he absolutely smoked Fix and RBY) is more impressive or better en route to taking a 7th. My argument is simple. Guys do better on balance when they move up. That is going to be impacted at the extremes when a guy just doesn't have the frame to move up like...I guess a few really small 125-pounders. Though I think that's more rare than guys who are tweeners and are at a larger, more inherent disadvantage than a 5'11 215LB "HWT."

You really think it's likely guys who wrestled at multiple weight classes would on balance do better at the lighter weight class vs the heavier weight? How many guys are going down a weight by the way? Aside from guys who a redshirting(like Sinclair who...is obviously not a '97 pounder)...how many guys are going to have seasons up a weight class? And most of the ones I can think of are outliers. Beau Bartlett who wrestled '49 because Lee was at '41 or Mike Poeta who had to Wrestle '65 It seems exceedingly obvious that going up and building has led to a lot more success than guys cutting or going down. That was the entire reason people wanted '57KG to go up because it's an unnaturally small weight class for 99% of adult Men and then the gap is so big, you're having guys like Vito not even trying to Micic looks like he's on death's door(or Rivera, even RBY). But, sticking to College? Yeah, I'd feeling pretty confident if you went back to the last 25 tournaments, guys have had quite a bit more success at higher weights than they have had at lower weights. Though...again, mostly just for common sense reasons. Because guys lift and grow into weight classes or they're forced to cut earlier on. Feels like you only accomplished the opposite and it did make you appear biased as you've brought this issue up multiple times now where...it's really not relevant. This was about the 197 weight class and YOU made it about 125. I also wouldn't call 125 a child's weight because I don't want to be a dick, but it's pretty small. Spencer Lee is...what, 5'2? He's a great Wrestler, but...that's pretty small guy and a bit of an outlier. Taylor Lamont then came back and didn't place at '25 the next year. How about Michael McGee? DNP in 2 chance at '25, 3X AA at '33. You brought up Vito. Lets see what...Davis does this year or Stanich in a year or two, or...I don't know, most guys who grow out of '25. But now we're stuck talking exclusively about the 125-pound weight class when that's not the point I'm making. I agree...if you've got too small of a frame to put on weight and move up like Kasak has or Haines or Yianni, Dake, Taylor...whoever, then it's going to be a pretty tough jump but I don't think you're going to find empirical data to defend the; argument. I'd bet it's the exact opposite. But I'm just not as invested in this, so I'm not going to match you on going back and looking this up. I'm just pulling the most obvious names I can think of. I used Bastida because this thread was very specifically about 197 and HWT and now it shifted. I'd use Garrett Lowney or a few DOZEN other guys who were lighter HWTs who struggled because they were just too small for the weight...which is where the entire discussion originated from. The gap between 197 and HWT. I'll also use Ethan Laird, but you'll now just say I'm only using two guys. The point is it's difficult to go from Wrestling 197 to having to Wrestle guys who are 260 or heavier if you get a guy like Mocco or whoever. "He is absolutely doing better at HWT." Sure...unless you use NCAA Tournament results, but we're so far from the actual subject, we're more on your very narrow argument. I'll take the bet that more guys have success at higher weights than lower weights...period. Going up...is better. It's healthier, it makes Wrestlers better and it's been better for the sport. It was better when they moved the weights up and I think it's better for a guy to lift and add weight and muscle than to spend their career cutting. That's my point. You believe guys do better staying at their weight or moving down. That's the lane I'm staying in rather than jumping all over the place now.

The powdered blue Wigs more than make up for it though.

He lost an OT match to Davidson who he'd bet in a close match earlier in the year. But no, he didn't do better at HWT. It's pretty easy to see actually. He took a 5th at 197 and a DNP at HWT. And he did that in his first year of Wrestling Folkstyle Wrestling competitively...most Freshmen have trouble on the mat. A Cuban guy who never Wrestled on the Mat, he's probably going to have more problems down there. 5th>DNP And everyone's hurting at the end of the year. You realize...guys best finishes TEND to be when they're at the end of their careers, right? It's really not that shocking... They SHOULD do better as a Sr than they did as a Freshmen and so on. You're assuming they're doing better because of the weight class vs the fact that they've gone from HS Wrestling to now Wresting 4-5 years in College...with a College Strength and Conditioning program and College diets and College Coaches. So yeah, just as with Nickal, or Brooks, I don't find it particularly shocking they did their best...as they finished up their careers. Seriously? This is why you keep bringing up the suggestion that they move 197 up a big like it's an existential threat to the sport? Because you were a 125? Again, MOST people end up doing better when they move up and mature physically. Throwing out Vito Arajau does...nothing to dissuade me from that argument. Well...I guess Davis from Penn State has a chance to make history this year then Except McGee from ASU already has(and I'm not going to spend time going back to look into this as...I don't know if you're so defensive and that's why you're missing my larger point or if you are intentionally missing it, but I suspect it's the prior). McGee 6,4,3(shockingly, as he got older, he did better) and NQ/R16 at 125). You've also change the criteria now to "failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 an AA'd," when it was simply just gotten better(and ignored that I was clearly referring to EVERY weight and apparently just happened to pick the one you Wrestled at). Then you'd also have a harder time making the argument that 197 is such a soft weight class. But...here again...better as they got older. Lets take the NCs each year every year and see how they did as a Jr and Sr vs Fresh and Soph. Where do you think there's a bigger correlation? Their grade or the weight?

Yeah, LOL...I understood the topic, I just hadn't seen them. And now that I have, they don't really seem that bad. Tar-Heel Blue and White Shirts. I think the fact that the shirts hang down looks stupid, but that's about it.

Yeah...I'd imagine that's pretty common when you're talking about 3X Champs or 3X Finalists and a 2X Champ at any weight. I'd guess if they move up, they'd probably have a higher bonus rate irrespective of weight class. It shouldn't really be shocking that Starocci is having a higher bonus rate this year. Also...Kyle Snyder won a World Championship not long after he was unable to win the B1Gs or the NCAAS at 197...so I'd still probably include him instead of holding that against 197. That was also the same year J'Den Cox took a 5th at 197. You seem pretty fixated on this "people think we need more upper weight," when really...the ONLY thing I've seen is people suggesting adjusting the weights so they look a little closer to the rest of the world and the jump isn't 197 to 285. And 197s "often" do better at HWT? I don't know, is that true? What constitutes often? 165's often do better at 174, 125's often do better at 133. And some of these examples are really bad. Bo Nickal? Again, the guy who was in the finals as a Freshmen? Stands to reason there's a pretty good chance he'll have success 3 years later. He moved up to 184 and did better. The guy that beat him at 174 did worse. He went up to 197 and had even more success. I don't think there's some larger point being made there. If '97 was so much easier, Starocci would probably have followed through and Wrestled it. I think what you're doing is confirmation bias. You've got a conclusion and you're working back and saying the facts fit your bias. Not sure they do. Yonger Bastida in a year in which he couldn't go down in a match or he was..in a LOT of trouble, he took a 5th at 197 due to his Freestyle Wrestling. He hasn't placed at HWT because it's a BIG jump in size.

Did they just switch it up this year? And if so, was it really to save wrestling? I haven't seen them, got an example?

Well...for the sake of the argument, I don't think they'd apply to tournaments, but yeah, I don't like them. What do you do? Waivers for shoes? Or is that included? Two hours, that works. It's not like the old Wild West, when guys were cutting their nuts off. Guys died. Now, guy are moving up because...they don't want to spend 4-5 years being miserable cutting weight. 25 years ago Mesenbrink would be a '57(probably at UNI or something), guys like Kasak would be '49 pounders, SVN would be a '41. Barr probably...'74. Sinclair would be a...'49! Ok, little hyperbolic on that one, but '57/'65 isn't crazy the way they cut before the rule change. I think that change has allowed the sport to grow so much. When you're not spending every day focused on your weight, you're getting stronger, working in practice on something other than just sweating and being ground down. For all the hand-wringing over the problems with the sport, I see more talent and better Wrestling than ever. ***Off Topic, but just got to thinking about a hypothetical duel 25 years apart and remembered how awesome that '99 class was, so...just wanted to suggest it. I'd like to see a 1999 vs 2024 hypothetical duel; 125-Stephen Abas(Soph) vs? 133-Guerrero(3rd Title) vs Crookham 141-Schwab vs Mendez 149-TJ Williams vs Henson/SVN 157-Casey Cunningham vs Kasak 165-Kirk White vs Mesenbrink 174-Glenn Pritzlaff vs O'Toole/Haines 184-Cael(Freshmen)vs Starroci 197-Hartung vs....? HWT-Neal vs Gable That list on the left is a completed, finished list. The one on the right is not. I think Lillendahl could end up with 2-3 or even 4 titles, I think Crookham lost his last match last year when he took a 3rd, Mendez is on his way to potentially winning 3, Hensen the defending Champ or SVN, 3rd as a True Fresh, Kasak, same. Mesenbrink, like Cookham, I believe he's lost his last College match, O'Toole and Haines are going to end up with 5 titles between the two and they'll end up with 4 more top 3 finishes. 5X for Starroci, who knows about Barr and Gable is the greatest D1 HWT Wrestler of all-time, I'll let the old heads discuss him vs the 6X Champ who went on to become a stud for the Steelers!

Oh...well, in that case, I have no problem. I'm fairly sure the same thing happened when Barr wrestled Mirsaola. Barr spanked him pretty good. 10-1 IIRC? Mirasola wasn't going to Wrestle this year anyway(most likely)...but he wrestled the match. I get he's not a Ferrari level recruit, but he's not far off. I'm good with that. Let the loser know where he stands. Mirasola now knows he's not all that close to Barr at the moment. The biggest leap Wrestlers make is usually during their Freshmen season, in-season, going through the practices and then, in my experience, Soph year when you know what it takes. So I'd let them all Wrestle. If Starocci and Brooks were both at '84 as one was taking a RS, I'd let them Wrestle. I don't think it hurts anyone, only helps. You can't be scared of taking losses. That's almost certainly going to happen.

This is exactly what I'd do. -You're losing a LOT(most) of the top HWT talents to Football. -Of those who are left...there's still certainly a lot of talent and guys you can pick here and there who would thrive, but enough to fill up another weight class? I don't know...Keuter, Feldman, Trumble, Bastida, Pitzer...I don't even know who else, but a lot of the HWTs would cut to the 225 or 220 weight pretty easily. Even the 215. So as I said in another thread, I'd bump each weight up a bit. Not sure how I'd do that, but...make MFF Classes make some sense...they skew too heavy though(particularly given my argument about losing a lot of athletes to Football). 125, 134, 143, 154, 163, 174, 190, 203, 214, 276 Makes those 125, 133, 142, 150, 158, 167, 177, 190, 212, 285 I'd say make it matside weighins as that's...apparently popular, but I wouldn't do that. Just make those the weights. I should have read all the way down. That's similar to what I'd do.