scourge165

Well...yeah, if he was 6'4/270, it'd be kinda silly to say I think he could be a bigger version of him, wouldn't it? On another note, Tommy had a kid coming up, right? A Jr? How good is he? And is he going through the same...page as his Dad? 103 to HWT?

Yeah..but it's not a stock, it's a kid. By the way, if you are shorting stocks, COST is a GREAT stock to short. Super expensive, like a 60PE, small margins that will be under more pressure with tariffs and enormous growth this year. Anyway, don't like shorting...kids. He's been playing Football and Wrestling. Get him in a College Strength and conditioning program...that's a BIG part of the battle. Also, IIRC, he hurt it, missed half the season and he's been back fine since then.

Yeah, but does that matter for Crookham? This dude beat Vito pretty soundly twice last year. He ended up losing...obviously, but that's a WC and the defending champ as a Freshmen. He seems like a guy who's a big favorite every year he Wrestles.

Hey, I'm not calling ANY National Title easy...to be clear. I'm just responding to the argument, both can't be true. You can't say he hasn't won anything and until then it doesn't mean anything(at the College level) and THEN say 'but if he does win, 125 was really weak.' Which isn't a quote, I'm paraphrasing.

That, PSU exhaustion or even boredom with their greatness. Right, but you were basically arguing that there's an assumption any would have won #5 had they been given the chance. I was just pointing out...I don't know if that's true in an admittedly disingenuous argument by showing some of their margin of victories. If Lee wins a title the year before the Ramos loss and that was HIS 5th year or in this case, his prospective 5th year, we'd all say he'd obviously have won. Nobody in that weight could have touched him. Dan Gable... Also, why this is all hypothetical as Parker Keckheisen absolutely CAN beat Starocci. I think there'd be 4-5 bigger upsets in the last decade than PK beating Cstarr.

Yeah...Ramos should have had 2NF. That's the only questionable call. The Oliver call wasn't. John Smith doesn't even argue that call because, again, that was a point of emphasis that year. The next year, it's 2 for Oliver...I think. The further away from it, the more I forget how they changed the rules. But even in that Ramos-Stieber match, Stieber was 5-0 vs Ramos, he gave up ONE TD and he still wins that match with or without that NF. He won 7-4. They wanted 2 NF. I don't think you have a sketchy 4-time Champ. You have lots of calls that are close. Yianni's TD vs McKenna? Was THAT two? Maybe at the end of the 2nd period, but then you still have a 3rd period in which McKenna is down 1 instead of up 1 and it's a whole different 3rd period. I also don't think your "Mt Rushmore" even has to come from the 4X Champs(or 3X Champs in 3 years) as I've said. Spencer Lee was as dominant as any of them, Gable(really either, but Stephenson) was as dominant as anyone(save for Cael). Lincoln Mcllravy, I don't think any of these guys, save for Cael was immune from a fluke match, move, whatever and then losing a match. Askren lost to one guy who just had his number and he dominated Jake Herbert who was a stud and dominant 2X Champ. But I've already made this point. It's so easy to lose...how do you not get at least a little credit for doing it a FIFTH time? Not saying you have to put him in your top 4. My top 4 is different every time I'm asked with only #1 there every time(and probably Dake, but again, Dake is more similar to Starroci than anyone wants to give him credit for).

He could be a bigger Tommy Rowlands type. Part Rowlands, part Kerry McCoy. If he's all in on Wrestling, he could be the biggest recruit to commit from this class.

Well...at least we can all agree Metcalf was pinned! (Seriously though...I'm not sure how he wouldn't be...it wasn't his shoulder blades or the upper part of his back, but...doesn't have to be). Ahh well...to bad we never got to see them go at it again

I actually JUST saw that Ross committed and...it's kinda blowing my mind people aren't talking about it more. I get Bassett has marketed himself better and Jax and he are teammates and beat some NCAA AAs/NCs(I think) at the Sr Level, but Ross is just about the perfect HWT. He's so damn long, athletic. He's got a thick frame and looks like he could put on 30 more GOOD pounds and just be an absolute beast. I think he is as good a HWT prospect since...maybe Gable. As good as Kerk. But I also haven't seen much about him(maybe that's because I haven't been on here much). I'm also guessing I'll get some pushback on that from Iowa fans, and I'm not saying he's as refined as Keuter, but I like his upside at the next level better. Especially in the room with Taylor.

He doesn't deserve any hate. The hate he gets is from that Oliver match and I know that year at the D1, in the coaches meeting, they talked about that EXACT position and how you had to get your head out for it to be two. Stieber kept it buried and won. So he lost as a Freshmen, then one match to Zain. I think it's insane any of these 4X Champs get any hate.

I'm confused why Logan Stieber, Kyle Dake, Pat Smith, Yianni...I don't see why what they've done without this year is more impressive. I think Brooks was pretty damn impressive as well as Cael(obviously). I just saw a list that had them ranked(heading into last year) 1-Cael, 2-Dake, 3-Yianni(took an L as a Sr), 4-Stieber, 5-Smith If we're going after Starocci for his style...I'm not sure why Dake gets extra points. For beating Taylor? The 4 weights? He rode the piss outta guys, he wasn't overly offensive. Stieber- He was Oliver knowing the rules that year away from not being on the list. I'm too ignorant about Pat Smith's career to speak intelligently about it, so I won't(but being the first is impressive). I'll also add, people talk about Lee Kemp with amazing reverence(well deserved) but did his style differ from Starocci? I'd guess he was more conservative than "cstall" was/is. He very easily could have been the first 4X Champ, referees decision as a Freshmen, then three titles. As it pertains to the extra year, It ain't easy to go through 6 years...as we've seen. I don't know how many Wrestlers have finished their careers worse, but it's a few. Guys who have worn down or gotten beaten up. In fact...he did that just last year. Hurt his knee and took out two former Champs in Griffin and Mekhi Lewis. And it's not impressive enough for what seems to be MOST of the board? Again, I'll reiterate, I find him to be a little obnoxious at times and I always find these ranking discussions a bit reductive. Mitchell Mesenbrink won't be considered as great as ANY 4X Champ because he lost a 9-8 decision on RT to David Carr as a Freshmen? He Wrestled in a weight class that may have 2 2X Champs and was widely considered the toughest weight, it would certainly appear as though he'd on his way to an absolutely dominant career where he may not lose again...and could tech his way through it. But he's not going to be a 3X Champ. Obviously not as Lee Kemp's never ranked ahead of those 4X Champs. How about Zain Retherford? He had a 4X Champ who he beat his Freshmen year...stopping him from winning 4. So yes, we've decided...collectively that 4 is greater than 3...at least going back to the days of Uetake and guys who couldn't Wrestle 4 years, but a guy winning his 5th is...'meh.' I rooted for him to come back for a 5th year because I enjoy excellence. I'm not a Penn St fan...beyond the fact that I appreciate excellence. I think winning a 5th does mean something. I don't know that every other guy who won 4 would have won a 5th. I don't know that Stieber holds of Zain another year. Smith won a 6-2 and a 5-3 match in the Semis and Finals his Sr year and then the next year, that was the same year Lincoln Mcllravy got beaten in a crazy match stopping his attempt to win 4. I also know aside from the two close matches, he won a 7-6 match over Tom Ryan and a 5-4 match over Scott Hovan. So no, I don't think you can just assume they'd have all won it. I don't think you have to take anything away from them for not having the chance, but you can recognize that going through the grind once more and coming out unscathed(assuming he does) over a guy who has gone 3/3/2/1 with Aaron Brooks winning the weight those 4 years, it's an accomplishment. It's NOT nothing, it does matter. Does anyone remember or care about those close Pat Smith matches?(asking genuinely as I don't recall and I couldn't begin to tell you what his bonus rate was). This is all such a...disingenuous way to look at these Wrestlers accomplishments, but there's a thread right now about Starocci and how he's such a staller because a SUPREMELY talented Freshmen who Wrestled on one knee and on the out of bounds line all match(which is understandable, he's facing a 4X NC as a True Freshmen and it's a big duel) didn't lose by that much? LOL...this is all ridiculous. The "pre-emptive" keeping him off of a fictional Mt Rushmore. I'd just like to reiterate, every point I made about each Wrestler potentially losing, it's not meant to diminish them. There are 10 champs a year and we've become pretty cavalier about how hard it is to be one of them(I damn sure wasn't) and instead of using an argument to build a Wrestler UP...like Kyle Dake winning it at 4 different weights and being such a dominant defensive Wrestler and so great on top or Aaron Brooks insane defense and dominance in the underhook...or Cael, which is self-explanatory, it sounds like a Twitter bitshing about LeBron or Jordan. Yeah, I got my opinion, but you're not convincing me by trying to take AWAY from the greatness of any of them. How's that for overthinking it? Just Mark Twain stream of consciousness...sans the coherence, wit or...talent of Twain, but...at least one similarity!

It's not like it'd just be handed to him. I did vote for Mesenbrink, but...he'll have to beat Parker in this scenario and he's pretty close to a 100% bonus rate for "csall." Kinda crazy a guy has that nickname and yet...he's got one match where he hasn't gotten bonus and like 3 more where it's only been a major. If you assume each of the three, Starr, Mesenbrink and Gable all win it and they're all dominant, It'd hardly be an outrage that the 5X Champ gets it over the 3X Champ(who should also be done with his eligibility) and the RS Soph who has 2 more years left but has an objectively easier weight. We've still got a month to go though. So, we'll see how it plays out.

No...I'd imagine after you smoke those blue pills and suddenly becoming a Penn State homer, you would be in a daze!

That's a great point. Now THAT match I had forgotten about. And that's when Cael had the unbeaten streak going. The "Hahn almost beat Cael," and then later on you saw it and realized...he really didn't. But yeah, that 3-2 win wouldn't have otherwise dawned on me.

THAT was your point? LOL...that's so ridiculous. So because I know who Paul Jenn is(someone who BEAT Sanderson)...that means we'll remember a CLOSE win in a year in which he's otherwise dominated and had a 100% bonus%? And your response to me was because I "LITERALLY" quoted a guy(I'd never figuratively quote a guy) who said who remembers Cael Sanderson's 159th and final win in a 4 year undefeated career? Jesus....do you realize the amount of respect you're giving Starocci? You apparently don't get it, but you're LITERALLY equating Cael Sanderson's win over Jon Trenge to become a 4X undefeated National Champion with Carter Starocci wrestling Iowa and...only winning by 2 points. The fact that you're even citing that is more telling than you seem to get.

Yeah, I don't think he's on Spencer's level. I've never seen them compared until someone later tried justifying the comp. I do think he can win it and I think a little bit is being put on him. People are presenting what this kid has done as some sort of let down. IF someone compared him to Lee, that was unfair(just as it was to Taylor who was compared to Sanderson or Metcalf to Brands and those proved to be pretty valid)...but he's a true Freshmen who has been pretty damn good. If I was a PSU fan, I wouldn't be able to car less if he went TF, TF, TF, 6-1 en route to winning a title, or that a lot of people graduated. And on that last point, I think you can say the same about other weights. As you have these guys who got the free Covid year clearing out, you're losing a LOT of AAs.

Pretty famously the guy who beat Cael as a RS and then tragically passed away in what I thought was a car accident at a very young age. I'm not sure what your point is or if you're arguing here... I responded I DID remember Cael's last match and you came back with "YET we're still talking about the match." Right...I kinda said that, no?

Yeah, I agree here. I think he can be real obnoxious...but I also think he's pretty undeniable. I think he's been a little more aggressive than people are suggesting. He's got a couple MDs this year and then all TF/Pins. One match he didn't bonus a guy was the match we're talking about. I think Ferrari went out there, wanted to keep the match close. It's hard to score on a guy who just wants to keep it close--NOT saying he shouldn't have gone after him more, but are we going off his past a bit more than his actual results this year? Also...I think just about every diehard Wrestling fan should remember Cael's last match. It was 159. 4th Title. Iconic. I can't tell you the score, but I remember those Goggles Trenge wore...right?

LOL...so in other words, lets see him win an NCAA Title...but if he does, does it really even matter given how weak the weight is this year?

You're also smoking the pills? There's a...whole lot that's not making sense here.

Who and when? I saw people say he had a chance to win it this year...and he certainly does. Never saw anyone compare him to Lee. He's not similar to Lee in really any way other than they're both pretty good at tilts I guess. I feel like you kinda made that up just because people said he was capable of winning it and they're at '25...which is a lazy comp. If I was comparing a upcoming Wrestler to Lee, it'd be...Bassett probably. More similar in their styles. Definitely not the long lanky Lillendahl.

Oh, my bad. I didn't know that. I still think PSU has 2-3 guys who should transfer. Duke is gonna come in there and...IMO, he's going to dog walk some kids next year while taking a RS(or maybe not, maybe Kasak takes a RS). Sealey looked...like a guy who needs to try and go '65. If he's cutting to '57, he should lift and try to go up. He just didn't look good. Kid is a former World Champ in the NLWC/PSU room. The OSU kid was tough and underrated and an AA contender, but Sealey had nothing. Not attempts, just trying to not be scored on. I've also heard Cunningham is really coming on. You have Ryder, Asher Cunningham and Henkel coming in next year.

Eh...Brands certainly seemed to think so. That's the one where DeSanto yelled out twice on his way to his back? Sure, that'd be quitting.

Does this maybe suggest that Facundo is done at PSU? That he'll be transferring this year? They said 7 of the top 9 157 at in the B1G...pretty sure Facundo would be in that group as well.

Yeah, no, it was the "quits" part I thought was kinda stupid. I'm looking for a guy who has given up half way through the match. And just looking for clarification.