Jimmy's plan for when the Brands retire ...

[BruceyB]

4 hours ago, Le duke said:

He came closer to beating the gold medalist in his weight class than Lee did.

He scored a takedown. Lee did not. Never came even close.

Also, WTF are you talking about? True third? How is that relevant here?


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Last I heard it's hard to win gold when you lose in the semis..

You could argue that Brooks would win more gold's versus the field if they wrestled it 10x than Spencer was, but then I would still say you're wrong because Spencer was a takedown away from gold IIRC. Brooks lost to Ramazanov who isn't very close to a healthy Yazdani.

The simple fact is that on the day that mattered, Spencer had a chance for gold in his final match, aka closer. Whereas Brooks was wrestling for bronze, which is further away.

2 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

They were just talking about this concept on the golf channel.

Colin Morikawa said of match play golf that in the semi finals player A shoots a 7 under 65 to beat player B who went 6 under 66. In the other semifinal player C shoots level par 72 to beat player D who shot 73. 

Player B shoots another 66 in the 3rd place match to beat player D. Player C loses the final to player A while shooting another 72.

Who played better, the 3rd placer, player B, or the second placer, player C. 

 

This is terrible comparison. In match play golf, the entire strategy is to beat your current opponent, not try to score the lowest overall score. If you have a lead early, you're likely going to play safer shots and be content with pars rather than try to take riskier shots in hunt of birdies.

It's like saying someone who wins a match 16-14 is better than someone who wins 4-1, because they scored more points, even though they likely only scored so many points because their opponent kept scoring as well. In one match, you had to keep pressing for points, the other you could stay within yourself and cruise to a controlled victory. That's far from a perfect analogy as their is no traditional offense/defense in golf, but I think it at least gives some insight for anyone unfamiliar with match play.

Beside the fact it's not a good comparison, the conversation is not about who is better, it was about who was closer to winning gold in Paris. In your scenario, I would still the player that made the finals was closer to winning the tournament since he was in the final match.

 

[Le duke]

You are stating opinions as facts, and then just saying othes can't have opinions. Brooks can not have been closer to winning gold definitionally, since Lee made the final and Brooks did not.  Brooks didn't even get to compete against Yazdani, and you're just presuming Brooks would have beaten him,  whereas Spencer actually did beat everyone in his bracket except the gold medalist.  Brooks didn't beat either guy that made the Finals.

Again: Brooks came closer to beating the gold medalist in his bracket than Lee did.

I didn’t say that Brooks would have beaten Yazdan; I didn’t even mention his name until now.

Also, if we take your statement literally, no, no one wrestled and beat everyone in their brackets. In their path to the final and the final, sure, they beat everyone, but no one went 15-0.


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[BruceyB]

2 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

So you think 4 wrestlers were closer to winning the 2023 NCAA title at 125 than Spencer Lee? That 6 wrestlers were closer to winning at 165 when Alex Marinelli was finishing 8th? Ok. 

Ramos and Glory were closer to winning the 2023 title seeing as Spencer wasn't in the finals, the others are irrelevant as they also lost in the finals or before and were also on the backside. You understand the concept of an upset, do you not? If a match was wrestled 10 times between Lee and Ramos, Spencer might damn well might have won 9 of 10. But guess what, that doesn't make him closer to winning a title until his hand is raised.. If we want to go through history and throw out all of the upsets because "so and so was closer to winning" because they were a favorite, then lets just draw up the brackets and not bother wrestling them.

[BruceyB]

9 hours ago, Le duke said:

Brooks was closer to being a gold medalist than Spencer.

You're walking back your words now. You originally said that Brooks was closer to being a gold medalist. That obviously infers that he would beat Yazdani. Don't play ignorant.

[Caveira]

11 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Again: Brooks came closer to beating the gold medalist in his bracket than Lee did.

I didn’t say that Brooks would have beaten Yazdan; I didn’t even mention his name until now.

Also, if we take your statement literally, no, no one wrestled and beat everyone in their brackets. In their path to the final and the final, sure, they beat everyone, but no one went 15-0.


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I just saw a video on TikTok.    It was a joke / spoof video but it portrayed Phil helmuth playing a poker hand against Phil helmuth.   One Phil has 45 of hearts.  Other Phil has 79 of hearts.  Well the board ends up

3 T 6 2 8.   All hearts.   Naturally they get all their chips in the pot.  They proceed to blow up and argue with one another.   It’s hilarious.  
 

the video reminded me of you.  

[Pinnacle]

25 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Last I heard it's hard to win gold when you lose in the semis..

You could argue that Brooks would win more gold's versus the field if they wrestled it 10x than Spencer was, but then I would still say you're wrong because Spencer was a takedown away from gold IIRC. Brooks lost to Ramazanov who isn't very close to a healthy Yazdani.

The simple fact is that on the day that mattered, Spencer had a chance for gold in his final match, aka closer. Whereas Brooks was wrestling for bronze, which is further away.

This is terrible comparison. In match play golf, the entire strategy is to beat your current opponent, not try to score the lowest overall score. If you have a lead early, you're likely going to play safer shots and be content with pars rather than try to take riskier shots in hunt of birdies.

It's like saying someone who wins a match 16-14 is better than someone who wins 4-1, because they scored more points, even though they likely only scored so many points because their opponent kept scoring as well. In one match, you had to keep pressing for points, the other you could stay within yourself and cruise to a controlled victory. That's far from a perfect analogy as their is no traditional offense/defense in golf, but I think it at least gives some insight for anyone unfamiliar with match play.

Beside the fact it's not a good comparison, the conversation is not about who is better, it was about who was closer to winning gold in Paris. In your scenario, I would still the player that made the finals was closer to winning the tournament since he was in the final match.

 

It is true your objective is simply to defeat your opponent in match play, but in my example player C beat a lesser player D on that day. Player C also took 6 more strokes than player B. 

And match play semi finals take place in consecutive pairings on the same course and pin locations.

[Pinnacle]

20 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Ramos and Glory were closer to winning the 2023 title seeing as Spencer wasn't in the finals, the others are irrelevant as they also lost in the finals or before and were also on the backside. You understand the concept of an upset, do you not? If a match was wrestled 10 times between Lee and Ramos, Spencer might damn well might have won 9 of 10. But guess what, that doesn't make him closer to winning a title until his hand is raised.. If we want to go through history and throw out all of the upsets because "so and so was closer to winning" because they were a favorite, then lets just draw up the brackets and not bother wrestling them.

Both Brooks and Lee are top notch wrestlers. 

Brooks lost when his opponent scored a last second Td.

Lee lost because in the last 2+ minutes he trailed on criteria and could not score a go ahead point. 

[Hammerlock3]

3 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Both Brooks and Lee are top notch wrestlers. 

Brooks lost when his opponent scored a last second Td.

Lee lost because in the last 2+ minutes he trailed on criteria and could not score a go ahead point. 

You're trying to trick people into reaching your conclusion without you because its too flimsy to say.

[Caveira]

Serious rumor I heard on another professional wrestling message board.   The ioc is considering a massive overhaul to the wrestling rules.    After the rule  change this is what it would look like at 86kg

gold.   The Bulgarian 

Share of gold and silver brooks.   He gets the share cause Cael coached him and he would win the rematch.  Sheesh we all know this.  
 

bronze: dauletbekov.   He only lost by one point in the r16 against brooks.  4-3.  
 

other bronze*****: yazdani.   But with an asterisk that he lost to Taylor in the past.  Some consideration to giving Taylor the bronze here.   This rule is still being evaluated.  We all know he would have done better at the ott if he trained harder.   Also Carl.   
 

replchange is cancelled because we’re going to just use the scores of a few matches now.   On the + side.   There will be less matches so now we will get an extra weight in both men’s Greco and women’s freestyle.    Cons the new ioc logo is a psu logo.  

[Pinnacle]

7 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

You're trying to trick people into reaching your conclusion without you because its too flimsy to say.

Well, at least let me be clear what my conclusions are.

1. Both Brooks and Lee are obviously world class wrestlers.

2. Brooks tends to wrestle more freely in his biggest matches while Lee wrestles a little tight, perhaps negatively impacting his biggest matches.

3. NLWC is a far better club than HWC. Too many results to not know this is the way that it is, so not sure why it was implied in this thread that HWC was better.

[Caveira]

11 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

Well, at least let me be clear what my conclusions are.

1. Both Brooks and Lee are obviously world class wrestlers.

2. Brooks tends to wrestle more freely in his biggest matches while Lee wrestles a little tight, perhaps negatively impacting his biggest matches.

3. NLWC is a far better club than HWC. Too many results to not know this is the way that it is, so not sure why it was implied in this thread that HWC was better.

Brooks.  If I’m hearing your advice should have wrestled more freely in the semis.   Maybe he would have been closer to gold.   Given it was his first senior world level tournament and he had yet to senior level medal ever.  That in theory was the literal biggest match of his life.   Well there is always next time.   Keep your head up just don’t pray for Mohammad.  

[VakAttack]

1 hour ago, Le duke said:

Again: Brooks came closer to beating the gold medalist in his bracket than Lee did.

I didn’t say that Brooks would have beaten Yazdan; I didn’t even mention his name until now.

Also, if we take your statement literally, no, no one wrestled and beat everyone in their brackets. In their path to the final and the final, sure, they beat everyone, but no one went 15-0.


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As has already been pointed out, you're trying to change your claim now.

 

Lee is definitively and definitionally closer to winning a gold medal, seeing as he actually wrestled in the gold medal match, and Brooks didn't. 

[de4856]

I have to believe that Spencer is the Heir Apparent and this point in time, but things change. I have to wonder how much time Dake or the SnyderMan have left as competitors. If they were to retire how much interest would they draw. Add in what if this happens and Spencer is still competing, do you go out and try and land one of them or maybe JB if he’s has hung it up. 
Or does the Brand Bros, stay until Spencer is ready. 

[Hammerlock3]

14 minutes ago, de4856 said:

I have to believe that Spencer is the Heir Apparent and this point in time, but things change. I have to wonder how much time Dake or the SnyderMan have left as competitors. If they were to retire how much interest would they draw. Add in what if this happens and Spencer is still competing, do you go out and try and land one of them or maybe JB if he’s has hung it up. 
Or does the Brand Bros, stay until Spencer is ready. 

I'm not a "great wrestlers don't make great coaches" guy, but why do we talk as if great wrestlers always make great coaches.

maybe we're just that far into the "great recruiters are great coaches era"

Edited yesterday at 12:40 AM by Hammerlock3

[Gene Mills Fan]

On 1/4/2025 at 7:27 PM, Pinnacle said:

It is true your objective is simply to defeat your opponent in match play, but in my example player C beat a lesser player D on that day. Player C also took 6 more strokes than player B. 

And match play semi finals take place in consecutive pairings on the same course and pin locations.

 

12 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

I'm not a "great wrestlers don't make great coaches" guy, but why do we talk as if great wrestlers always make great coaches.

maybe we're just that far into the "great recruiters are great coaches era"

 

On 1/4/2025 at 7:49 PM, Pinnacle said:

Well, at least let me be clear what my conclusions are.

1. Both Brooks and Lee are obviously world class wrestlers.

2. Brooks tends to wrestle more freely in his biggest matches while Lee wrestles a little tight, perhaps negatively impacting his biggest matches.

3. NLWC is a far better club than HWC. Too many results to not know this is the way that it is, so not sure why it was implied in this thread that HWC was better.

No, it was stated that the Brands one trick pony coaching style Spencer Lee arm bar  has to be replaced. Not and rankings

[Gene Mills Fan]

On 1/4/2025 at 7:27 PM, Pinnacle said:

It is true your objective is simply to defeat your opponent in match play, but in my example player C beat a lesser player D on that day. Player C also took 6 more strokes than player B. 

And match play semi finals take place in consecutive pairings on the same course and pin locations.

different emotion and risk factor depending on your opponent, not always the course 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 1/4/2025 at 7:49 PM, Pinnacle said:

3. NLWC is a far better club than HWC. Too many results to not know this is the way that it is, so not sure why it was implied in this thread that HWC was better.

Not so sure... HWC has won quite a few more Olympic medals than the NLWC.

 

And Brooks wrestling more freely?  There was a lot of ankle sitting without attempts to turn his opponent for a large portion of his career.

Edited 11 hours ago by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 1/4/2025 at 7:49 PM, Pinnacle said:

 

2. Brooks tends to wrestle more freely in his biggest matches while Lee wrestles a little tight, perhaps negatively impacting his biggest matches.

 

I'm not sure what this "wrestle more freely" mumbo jumbo is, but Lee averaged more points in his NCAA finals appearances than did Brooks.

In Brooks four finals appearances,he averaged 5.25 points, while Lee averaged 5.67 points in his three appearances.

So what does wrestling more freely mean if it is not scoring more points?  Is it a little tingle you get while watching Brooks wrestle?

[Hammerlock3]

3 hours ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

 

 

No, it was stated that the Brands one trick pony coaching style Spencer Lee arm bar  has to be replaced. Not and rankings

what?

[mspart]

On 1/4/2025 at 6:51 AM, Le duke said:

Brooks was closer to being a gold medalist than Spencer.


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What a homer!!!     

mspart

[PortaJohn]

@ionel I don't get the mystery surrounding the Ferrari / Arnold debate.  Ferrari has a RS available and Arnold does not.  So isn't it obvious that Arnold is going to start and Ferrari will sit?

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

@ionel I don't get the mystery surrounding the Ferrari / Arnold debate.  Ferrari has a RS available and Arnold does not.  So isn't it obvious that Arnold is going to start and Ferrari will sit?

My take: Arnold is the guy for the season and post season ... but ... I expect them to throw Ferrari in for the OSU dual Feb 23.  Why you ask ... well 1) its a very late dual so Arnold gets a break going into b10 tourney, 2) Plott doesn't know much about the little focus except big bro prob put it to him in the practice room, 3) Plott then doesn't get a pre tourney look at Arnold, 4) they expected points Arnold v Ferrari are about the same, 5) it adds an extra level of fireworks for the dual - folks in Stilly still hate what the Ferrari clan did to JS.

Now sure you could say - but you are wrong ionel.   And I'll tell you why I'm wrong - cause no way Tom & Terry would think thru a 5 point plan. 

Edited 10 hours ago by ionel

[Barracuda141]

11 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

@ionel I don't get the mystery surrounding the Ferrari / Arnold debate.  Ferrari has a RS available and Arnold does not.  So isn't it obvious that Arnold is going to start and Ferrari will sit?

Well if Ferrari beats Arnold and he doesn't want to redshirt but you force him to, the likelihood of him jumping into the portable is extremely high.  

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Barracuda141 said:

Well if Ferrari beats Arnold and he doesn't want to redshirt but you force him to, the likelihood of him jumping into the portable is extremely high.  

@PortaJohn would love for him to jump in the porta! 

[PortaJohn]

3 minutes ago, ionel said:

My take: Arnold is the guy for the season and post season ... but ... I expect them to throw Ferrari in for the OSU dual Feb 23.  Why you ask ... well 1) its a very late dual so Arnold gets a break going into b10 tourney, 2) Plott doesn't know much about the little focus except big bro prob put it to him in the practice room, 3) Plott then doesn't get a pre tourney look at Arnold, 4) they expected points Arnold v Ferrari are about the same, 5) it adds an extra level of fireworks for the dual - folks in Stilly still hate what the Ferrari clan did to JS.

Now sure you could say - but you are wrong ionel.   And I'll tell you why I'm wrong - cause no way Tom & Terry would think thru a 5 point plan. 

But Iowa can win it all with Ferrari!

Or maybe they need 3?