Mike Johnson - Speaker of the House

[jross]

The older I get, the more disappointed I am with the educational gap in required life skill education.  Schools ought to be teaching finance management at a young age.  How to make money.  How to save money.  How to use money to make more money.  Good debt versus bad debt, etc.

How many elders would have saved more money at a younger age had a mentor spoken with them about it?

[jross]

The Supreme Court said, "It gives to the honest but unfortunate debtor…a new opportunity in life and a clear field for future effort, unhampered by the pressure and discouragement of preexisting debt."  What was the opinion on personal responsibility in the 1930s?

Given the judicial stance on bankruptcy, why are school loans treated differently?  How is the risk of an individual taking advantage different than a business taking advantage?

[ionel]

1 hour ago, jross said:

The older I get, the more disappointed I am with the educational gap in required life skill education.  Schools ought to be teaching finance management at a young age.  How to make money.  How to save money.  How to use money to make more money.  Good debt versus bad debt, etc.

How many elders would have saved more money at a younger age had a mentor spoken with them about it?

But making money is a bad thing, its like capitalism or something,, why would we want to teach bad things to kids?

[headshuck]

One thing that I hear all the time from this generation is “big company CEO makes this much money…” “big company makes this much profit…,” “big company…”

They don’t seem to any any appreciation for how the big company may have gotten there.

[WrestlingRasta]

11 minutes ago, headshuck said:

One thing that I hear all the time from this generation is “big company CEO makes this much money…” “big company makes this much profit…,” “big company…”

They don’t seem to any any appreciation for how the big company may have gotten there.

Valid

[jross]

1 minute ago, headshuck said:

One thing that I hear all the time from this generation is “big company CEO makes this much money…” “big company makes this much profit…,” “big company…”

They don’t seem to any any appreciation for how the big company may have gotten there.

Imagine a big company with 30,000 employees. The CEO makes $12 million while the average employee earns $80,000. If $10 million of the CEO's pay was shared equally among the employees, each would get a $333 raise.

Let's compare two scenarios:

• CEO 1 (with $12M) leads the company to a $1 billion profit.
• CEO 2 (with $2M) leads the company to a $100 million profit.

Which CEO deserves their pay more, and which outcome is more likely to result in higher employee salaries?

Supply and Demand matters.

[uncle bernard]

I had personal finance education starting in middle school. I'm sure not every school does it, but it definitely exists. Getting kids to pay attention is another story.

[jross]

You are correct.  All three of my kids spent a couple of weeks learning about money, writing checks, and doing pretend jobs for a day.  I did the same and learned that police have power, judges make money, and nobody wants to be a button maker.  

In high school, there should be required teaching about school loans... sort of like the scared straight approach for law/order, the tattoo king, OR the 'jaws of life' demonstration from firefighters for drunk driving danger.  Many kids don't have too much personal responsibility yet and still don't respect finances... so at this time, it makes sense to have adults with student loans come and talk about 'what they wish they knew then.'

College ought to require a personal financial class.  These students often have more personal responsibility, and the timing is right.  One class could be called "Beyond Ramen Noodles, A Path to Financial Freedom." 

Thankfully, my mother told me to save 10% when I got my first post-graduate paycheck.  I did because I trusted her.  I wish she had said to save 30%.

My oldest high-schooler has a part-time job and recently saved $2K over many work hours.  When researching a product for her, we stumbled on a limited supply/demand market.  Against her fears (but under my guidance), she spent her entire savings on three large products.  She sold two for 50% profit and recovered her investment.  Selling the third should net $1K in the green for about 1 hour total of work.  I am also teaching her about the Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) Movement, to save and invest aggressively—somewhere between 50–75% of her income—so she can retire sometime in her 30s or 40s.

[ThreePointTakedown]

On 11/4/2023 at 11:47 AM, Paul158 said:

Personal responsibility used to hold a lot of weight. Integrity used to hold a lot of weight. Making well thought out smart financial decisions used to hold a lot of weight. Its sad that today in our society that  many of these things don.t carry much weight.

Its not the same society as it was when people try to make the 'personal responsibility' argument. But they never acknowledge that. Why is that never taken into account? Cost of housing, education, and many goods/services were a much lower % of income. Lowest tiered employees made a wage that could afford all that stuff. Often times with just one income in a household. 

Jump ahead to today.(doodly doo, doodly doo) Lowest tiered workers are in 'Right to Work' states and can be fired for even considering asking for a higher wage(or being LGBTQ+ or athiest or any different religion or for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER). Wages have not risen at near the rate of inflation for years and years. So they are essentially paid less and less each year while having to pay more and more for the things they need to live. More and more people are paycheck to paycheck with less and less saved or, heaven for bid, invested. Housing and education costs are higher % than ever. As one party is clamoring to cut public school budgets or threaten librarians. All to further the narrative that the school system doesn't work, hasn't ever worked, and needs to be changed. We're trusting the people that broke it, to fix it, and they tell us that we never really needed it or that it'll cost too much to fix. But they have an idea of where all that sweet sweet public school money can go.... (drum roll) FOR PROFIT or Private (often Religious) Schools. 

Its not an integrity things. Why is that the knee jerk reaction? Seems a bit lazy. (old man yells at cloud, kinda thing) 

Our economy was in shambles. We were attacked. We rallied. Spent unknown sums of money to ramp up production for a huge war effort. Sent millions to Europe and the Pacific. Won. Decided that it would be a good idea to educate and house those millions that came back. Spent that money and built the economy back up in a huge way(google it). Decided in the 70's(before then, even) that we didn't want EVERYONE to take advantage of education or housing so the attacks started. Where from I wonder? (cough cough, the right). 

I know it can be easy to vilify a group of people for, supposedly, needing/wanting a handout. But if you step back and look at more of the moving parts you get a better idea of why that attitude exists. The war on education, making it seem like only elites try to get educated. As if its a bad thing. Why would anyone say something like that? What could their motivation be? Possibly to appeal to a group that hasn't and probably won't benefit from higher education if things stay as they are. Who are those people? Poorer white folk AND the near entirety of the black community. Which two groups are pitted against each other most often when it comes to just about every issue in politics? Those same two groups. One of those groups is much larger than the other. So it would benefit a party to keep one of those groups happy with their station by making it harder and more debilitating to achieve anything through education. As well as demonizing those that would advocate for education, as elite or soft or privileged. Is education any of those things, really? No. 

[Bigbrog]

Wow....

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 hours ago, jross said:

You are correct.  All three of my kids spent a couple of weeks learning about money, writing checks, and doing pretend jobs for a day.  I did the same and learned that police have power, judges make money, and nobody wants to be a button maker.  

In high school, there should be required teaching about school loans... sort of like the scared straight approach for law/order, the tattoo king, OR the 'jaws of life' demonstration from firefighters for drunk driving danger.  Many kids don't have too much personal responsibility yet and still don't respect finances... so at this time, it makes sense to have adults with student loans come and talk about 'what they wish they knew then.'

College ought to require a personal financial class.  These students often have more personal responsibility, and the timing is right.  One class could be called "Beyond Ramen Noodles, A Path to Financial Freedom." 

Thankfully, my mother told me to save 10% when I got my first post-graduate paycheck.  I did because I trusted her.  I wish she had said to save 30%.

My oldest high-schooler has a part-time job and recently saved $2K over many work hours.  When researching a product for her, we stumbled on a limited supply/demand market.  Against her fears (but under my guidance), she spent her entire savings on three large products.  She sold two for 50% profit and recovered her investment.  Selling the third should net $1K in the green for about 1 hour total of work.  I am also teaching her about the Financial Independence, Retire Early (FIRE) Movement, to save and invest aggressively—somewhere between 50–75% of her income—so she can retire sometime in her 30s or 40s.

I don't necessarily disagree with these points.

But you're bringing up that a life skill, like changing a tire, should now be the responsibility of a public school(I assume you mean a public school). Private schools can and should teach whatever they want with few exceptions. I'll let you guess which. But with regards to the conversations we've had before. Should financial knowledge be left to schools or to parents? What subjects do you default to professionals/experts and insist they take on that additional burden. Which do you say, 'I don't want my child doing it, so no child should do it!'?

 

[ThreePointTakedown]

On 11/4/2023 at 4:00 PM, jross said:

The Supreme Court said, "It gives to the honest but unfortunate debtor…a new opportunity in life and a clear field for future effort, unhampered by the pressure and discouragement of preexisting debt."  What was the opinion on personal responsibility in the 1930s?

Given the judicial stance on bankruptcy, why are school loans treated differently?  How is the risk of an individual taking advantage different than a business taking advantage?

Great question.

Good read! Lots I didn't know. 

 

[ionel]

3 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

But you're bringing up that a life skill, like changing a tire, should now be the responsibility of a public school(I assume you mean a public school). 

Why not?  Didn't we all take drivers Ed in school?  Changing a tire (or prob now knowing what to do when you have a flat)  is part of the bundle of driving skills.  Many of us took shop class or other life skill class.  Maybe the parents don't know how to teach these skills.  Shouldn't every kid have the opportunity?

3 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

 Should financial knowledge be left to schools or to parents? What subjects do you default to professionals/experts and insist they take on that additional burden. Which do you say, 'I don't want my child doing it, so no child should do it!'?

 

There are plenty of people/parents where math, finance, economics just isn't there thing, let's give the kids a chance.  But a good point, where do we stop?  But I'd prefer we teach the know skills needed in place of the fuzzy stuff.

[BobDole]

Now we want the left wing nut job teachers to indoctrinate the kids with their financial opinions? Wow! You sure are putting a lot on the teacher that you don't even trust with choosing appropriate books.

[jross]

4 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Now we want the left-wing nut job teachers to indoctrinate the kids with their financial opinions? Wow! You sure are putting a lot on the teacher that you don't even trust with choosing appropriate books.

If teachers taught financial responsibility, there would be no next-generation teachers.  Oof.

[ThreePointTakedown]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:55 PM, jross said:

Success is not solely determined by luck or one's family background. 

Both my parents and my wife's parents had their first child while in high school, had their life and college paid for by joining the military, and made something of themself despite their economic circumstances.  Their personal responsibility helped them overcome unfortunate 'birth' luck.  

Correct. But the thing that people often fail to see or purposefully ignore are the roadblocks that were put in front of people. Systematically holding them back from acquiring generational wealth that helps develop trust in the state or civil leaders. That they have their best interests in mind. Can you think of a group that might feel a bit snookered by local, state, and federal leaders? (I'll give you a hint you're not wrong but you're not thinking of the group I'm thinking of) Those disadvantaged are the intangible things that we know, now, are crucial in building a community. Things that reduce crime rates because schools are funded by property taxes. Increase working opportunities by ensuring small businesses flourish in neighborhoods so people don't have to travel long distances for work. 

Your response makes it seem like you have the only path towards prosperity and those that have not matched your opinion of what success looks like, are deficient in some way. You should be careful about having that opinion or wording it in such a way, if that is not what you mean. 

[VakAttack]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:53 PM, headshuck said:

One thing that I hear all the time from this generation is “big company CEO makes this much money…” “big company makes this much profit…,” “big company…”

They don’t seem to any any appreciation for how the big company may have gotten there.

Oh, people have lots of "appreciation" for how the big company got there.  Typically, by stepping on the head of regular people and exploiting workers (and/or child labor laws) while minimizing costs to increase profits.  All these huge companies and CEOs with their huge salaries, those supercharged profits are only going to the plutocrat class; not the regular workers without whom the company could not function.

On 11/4/2023 at 3:55 PM, jross said:

Success is not solely determined by luck or one's family background. 

Both my parents and my wife's parents had their first child while in high school, had their life and college paid for by joining the military, and made something of themself despite their economic circumstances.  Their personal responsibility helped them overcome unfortunate 'birth' luck.  

So all they had to do to improve their lot in their lives was risk their life.  And what if they had come back from service maimed and/or with severe PTSD?  No, EVERYTHING isn't determined by luck or background, but there is a HUGE correlation.  People will often throw around phrases like "the world needs ditch diggers, too" (or some corollary) but then doesn't want to pay said ditch diggers a living wage...well, do we need them or not?

Not everybody has the skillset to "raise up."

Take @Husker_Du for example.  Is he handsome?  No.  Is he smart?  Also no.  Is he well endowed?  Rumor around the craps table is again, no.  Is he....what was I doing again?

[VakAttack]

7 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Correct. But the thing that people often fail to see or purposefully ignore are the roadblocks that were put in front of people. Systematically holding them back from acquiring generational wealth that helps develop trust in the state or civil leaders. That they have their best interests in mind. Can you think of a group that might feel a bit snookered by local, state, and federal leaders? (I'll give you a hint you're not wrong but you're not thinking of the group I'm thinking of) Those disadvantaged are the intangible things that we know, now, are crucial in building a community. Things that reduce crime rates because schools are funded by property taxes. Increase working opportunities by ensuring small businesses flourish in neighborhoods so people don't have to travel long distances for work. 

Your response makes it seem like you have the only path towards prosperity and those that have not matched your opinion of what success looks like, are deficient in some way. You should be careful about having that opinion or wording it in such a way, if that is not what you mean. 

Correctamundo.  Previous generations opened a bunch of doors...and then closed them behind themselves, put a padlock on them, and are charging exorbitant fees to get thru.

[jross]

4 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

What subjects do you default to professionals/experts and insist they take on that additional burden. Which do you say, 'I don't want my child doing it, so no child should do it!'?

There is a difference between teaching financial education as a core curriculum and having concerns over teaching money-making through the Silk Road.

[WrestlingRasta]

This story about the ‘Covenant App’ is really……strange. 

[mspart]

Well, based on the fears expressed here, I say we shouldn't allow schools to teach Reading, Writing, or Arithmetic.   We don't want those types teaching it you know. 

Actually we are there if you look at the test scores.   But kids are taught to know about CO2, gender ideology, and antisemitism if we look at the colleges around the country.   And after all, those are the most important things to know right?

mspart

[ThreePointTakedown]

12 hours ago, jross said:

There is a difference between teaching financial education as a core curriculum and having concerns over teaching money-making through the Silk Road.

But do you understand the interesting position you're in now. Wanting cake and doing something else with that cake too. Why don't you just say, 'Give more money to education, so we can have more and better stuff for our kids!' 

Less money means less flexibility for teachers. Fewer classes offered. Less diversification of information. Or is that your point? You want a very narrow scope being taught to our/your kids for your peace of mind? 

[jross]

There is tremendous support for education to teach finance.  It isn't cake, it's meat and potatoes.

[Offthemat]

32 minutes ago, jross said:

There is tremendous support for education to teach finance.  It isn't cake, it's meat and potatoes.

An 1895 8th Grade Final Exam: I Couldn't Pass It. Could You?

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/79470/1895-8th-grade-final-exam-i-couldnt-pass-it-could-you

[jross]

16 hours ago, VakAttack said:

So all they had to do to improve their lot in their lives was risk their life... Not everybody has the skillset to "raise up."

It was the men's choice to accept the benefits against the risks; they put in the work and took advantage of the opportunity.  There is much positive to be said and had for joining the military...

Both my mother and MIL worked during the day and went to night school to earn nursing degrees.  I recall my mother bringing me to some of her classes.

My eldest sister was an unhappy SAHM with four children and chose divorce.  She joined another family with her four children to split rent on a house.  While on government assistance, she used grants and loans to put herself through college.  She has a good and stable salary now... 

Granted, my kin had access to education, family, and neighborhoods that helped create access to the opportunity. 

Sure, education, family, and neighborhoods affect social mobility.  There are other 'luck' considerations that impact raising one's social mobility...  but in the US... hard work goes a long way to overcoming hard luck.

Hard work...

The USA doesn't care how hard you work; it pays for performance. When the consumer purchases a car, factors like employee effort and work hours are not considered. Rather, decisions are based on quality, cost, and availability.  So how does the employee generate quality?  They either have the rare skill to work smarter, or they choose to work harder.  The employee who works smarter or harder than his peers will find himself with better luck. Don't have the energy to discuss the edge cases.

But ***duck**.  Hard work's separation isn't enough anymore for those that 'have' let alone those that don't.  Life is expensive.