US Mount Rushmore Speculation

[Lleynor]

If Taylor wins '23 Gold and '24 Olympics, is he on it? Also, what 4 sit at the top for us currently? Love insightful opinions.

[nhs67]

You could split this in to eras.  John Smith/Dave Schultz could be the end of one Era or the beginning of the next.  Wrestling Pre-1991 and after were quite different.

[jchapman]

George Mehnert, Bruce Baumgartner,  and John Smith all have two Olympic Golds, so they are on it.  Of the four with Olympic Gold and Silver, Kyle Snyder, (with three World Golds, two Silvers, and one Bronze) breaks the tie with Kenny Monday (One World Gold and one Silver), John Peterson (World Silver and Bronze), and Ben Peterson (World Bronze).  Special Mention goes to Rulon Gardner with one Olympic Gold, One Olympic Bronze, and one World Gold.

Edited May 2, 2023 by jchapman

[Lleynor]

16 minutes ago, jchapman said:

George Mehnert, Bruce Baumgartner,  and John Smith all have two Olympic Golds, so they are on it.  Of the four with Olympic Gold and Silver, Kyle Snyder, (with three World Golds, two Silvers, and one Bronze) breaks the tie with Kenny Monday (One World Gold and one Silver), John Peterson (World Silver and Bronze), and Ben Peterson (World Bronze).  Special Mention goes to Rulon Gardner with one Olympic Gold, One Olympic Bronze, and one World Gold.

 

Extremely insightful @jchapman! Thanks brother!

This next cycle is going to be interesting. 

Another question. Do we take into account the non-Olympic weights? 61, 70, etc. Winning worlds is great, but those weights just don't seem to resonate the same. 

[Plasmodium]

2 minutes ago, Lleynor said:

 

Extremely insightful @jchapman! Thanks brother!

This next cycle is going to be interesting. 

Another question. Do we take into account the non-Olympic weights? 61, 70, etc. Winning worlds is great, but those weights just don't seem to resonate the same. 

Championships without Russia don't resonate the same either.

[MPhillips]

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Lleynor said:

 

Extremely insightful @jchapman! Thanks brother!

This next cycle is going to be interesting. 

Another question. Do we take into account the non-Olympic weights? 61, 70, etc. Winning worlds is great, but those weights just don't seem to resonate the same. 

Yes we do. Olympic weights are harmful arbitrary decisions. 20 pounds is too much - weight classes exist for a reason. And Smith won 6 golds during an era of 10 weight classes. Would he have done the same if he had to compete at a non-optimal weight?

[mspart]

You have to admit, we are doing much better now than years ago in the worst drought we've had in the 2000s.   It was bleak.   Since JB, we have had at least one medalist since 2013 until now.   And we have monsters on the team that are winning gold consistently.   A great time to be a US Wrestling fan. 

mspart

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, jchapman said:

George Mehnert, Bruce Baumgartner,  and John Smith all have two Olympic Golds, so they are on it.  Of the four with Olympic Gold and Silver, Kyle Snyder, (with three World Golds, two Silvers, and one Bronze) breaks the tie with Kenny Monday (One World Gold and one Silver), John Peterson (World Silver and Bronze), and Ben Peterson (World Bronze).  Special Mention goes to Rulon Gardner with one Olympic Gold, One Olympic Bronze, and one World Gold.

Great list. I tend to give Snyder a little boost given that I think he's Wrestled the Greatest Wrestler ever(IMO). 

I realize some may still have Saitiev ahead of him or Medved, but the Tank is still in his prime and well on his way to passing anyone else. IF Snyder could somehow find a way to win another over him...WC or OLY, I think I might put him #1. I'm not saying it'll happen, but...IF. 

Also, not sure I don't have Gable himself in there. The way he just DOMINATED the field...yeah, he didn't wrestle as long, but when you go through the WCs and Olympics like he did, what more is there to prove?

Your list is clearly based more on overall accomplishments. Certainly not arguing that. 

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, mspart said:

You have to admit, we are doing much better now than years ago in the worst drought we've had in the 2000s.   It was bleak.   Since JB, we have had at least one medalist since 2013 until now.   And we have monsters on the team that are winning gold consistently.   A great time to be a US Wrestling fan. 

mspart

I wonder why that is? Yes, I do think some of it is the NLWC, but that's not the answer for EVERYTHING good about Wrestling!

I guess a couple of freaks helps and we had 3 come along at different stages in JB, Snyder and Gable. Really wish we could go back to 10 weight though. The quality of Wrestling is too high to have these massive jumps in weight. 

 

[mspart]

I agree.   10 weights in the Olys would be ideal.   I would add Dake and Taylor to that list as well.   Multiple time champs.  Now if we could only get back to glory in GR. 

mspart

[jchapman]

57 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I wonder why that is? Yes, I do think some of it is the NLWC, but that's not the answer for EVERYTHING good about Wrestling!

I guess a couple of freaks helps and we had 3 come along at different stages in JB, Snyder and Gable. Really wish we could go back to 10 weight though. The quality of Wrestling is too high to have these massive jumps in weight. 

 

The ability to make a good enough living to get married and raise a family while still competing has a lot to do with it.

[Lleynor]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

Great list. I tend to give Snyder a little boost given that I think he's Wrestled the Greatest Wrestler ever(IMO). 

I realize some may still have Saitiev ahead of him or Medved, but the Tank is still in his prime and well on his way to passing anyone else. IF Snyder could somehow find a way to win another over him...WC or OLY, I think I might put him #1. I'm not saying it'll happen, but...IF. 

Also, not sure I don't have Gable himself in there. The way he just DOMINATED the field...yeah, he didn't wrestle as long, but when you go through the WCs and Olympics like he did, what more is there to prove?

Your list is clearly based more on overall accomplishments. Certainly not arguing that. 

I can't consider Gable right now. He won the Olympics, with hardly any training, but that is just one.

[MPhillips]

10 minutes ago, Lleynor said:

He won the Olympics, with hardly any training, but that is just one.

[BuckyBadger]

Yes, if Taylor wins the next Olympics then I think he is right up there with best ever American wrestlers (Smith probably still leads the pack).

What he’s accomplished is nothing short of amazing. He couldn’t beat Burroughs or Dake, decides to move up 26 lbs. He transforms his body, but maybe more importantly he figures out a way to beat Yazdani who was supposed to be the next once in a generation type of wrestler. I don’t know if people realize what a big deal that is.
 

When all is said and done Taylor may have a more accomplished international resume than Dake, Burroughs or Yazdani. And before he moved up, he was not in the same conversation as them.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by BuckyBadger

[Lleynor]

29 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Yes, if Taylor wins the next Olympics then I think he is right up there with best ever American wrestlers (Smith probably still leads the pack).

What he’s accomplished is nothing short of amazing. He couldn’t beat Burroughs or Dake, decides to move up 26 lbs. He transforms his body, but maybe more importantly he figures out a way to beat Yazdani who was supposed to be the next once in a generation type of wrestler. I don’t know if people realize what a big deal that is.
 

When all is said and done Taylor may have a more accomplished international resume than Dake, Burroughs or Yazdani. And before he moved up, he was not in the same conversation as them.

 

This is where my mindset was, honestly. At one point, the World thought that Yaz and Sadulaev were the two beat walking the planet. Taylor is definitely above one of those. No one is above Sadulaev, IMO.

Is Taylor going to hang around through 2028? He keeps winning Golds and Silvers, he has a big consideration. 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Lleynor said:

I can't consider Gable right now. He won the Olympics, with hardly any training, but that is just one.

LOL...you guys realize there was this other guy named Gable who wrestled, right? Pretty big deal actually. In fact...such a big deal, if you were a Wrestling fan, you may name a kid after him!

Stevenson didn't win a WC and didn't dominate both.

DAN Gable however...he did and he trained his ass off.

[DJT]

13 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

LOL...you guys realize there was this other guy named Gable who wrestled, right? Pretty big deal actually. In fact...such a big deal, if you were a Wrestling fan, you may name a kid after him!

Stevenson didn't win a WC and didn't dominate both.

DAN Gable however...he did and he trained his ass off.

So not Chad Gable?

[scourge165]

8 minutes ago, DJT said:

So not Chad Gable?

Hmmm...nope! I'm SURE he'd make it through USADA's testing though!

[Eagle26]

Right now it has to be Smith, JB, Big Bruce, and Snyder. Olympics are the pinnacle of the sport and I think they should count higher than a world medal, but not so much that they are trumping all the other medals won by these guys. Taylor, Dake, and Steveson could be in the conversation if they win Olympic golds. 

[headshuck]

Pretty long thread to not come up with a way to carve Tayler into the mountain.

[Ragu]

Do people have Taylor over Dake? If Taylor is on Dake has to be and I’d bargain that Dake isnt on the mountain yet

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

Right now it has to be Smith, JB, Big Bruce, and Snyder. Olympics are the pinnacle of the sport and I think they should count higher than a world medal, but not so much that they are trumping all the other medals won by these guys. Taylor, Dake, and Steveson could be in the conversation if they win Olympic golds. 

I assume you mean again for Taylor and Steveson.

[de4856]

So on the old forum by USA Wrestling there was a topic called USA All Time Ranking. In that post the author assigned a numerical value for medals and championships won. 
Olympic Gold 7 pts. World Champ 6 pts. Olympic medal 5 pts. World Medal. 4 pts. NCAA Champ 2 pts. NCAA finalist 1 pt. And All American.5 pts. So using this criteria Big Bruce has a comfortable lead with 70 pts. Jordan Burroughs is next with 52, then Snyder at 50, John Smith 43, Kyle Dake 37, Dave Schultz at 36, David Taylor 29. Leroy Kemp also at 29. 

[Eagle26]

6 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I assume you mean again for Taylor and Steveson.

Yeah I meant if they win golds in 2024. DT and Steveson would have two Olympic golds and although Steveson wouldn’t have as many overall medals, he could be considered for level of dominance and potential undefeated run. Dake would be in the conversation too despite one of his Olympic medals being bronze because he could have 5 world championships too.