The next step in Cael's plan to destroy college wrestling

[Theo Brixton]

Now that the team race is a forgone conclusion for the foreseeable future, Cael has time to reflect on what needs to be done next to cement his legacy of destroying college wrestling. Given the surfeit of studs on his roster, collegiate wrestling's Thanos is going to need to push for multiple entries at each weight class to prevent some of his gems from falling into enemy hands. 

At that point, will he relent and allow a dual-meet championship format? I wouldn't hold my breath...

[Wrestleknownothing]

Hang on. How can Cael Sanderson destroy what was already destroyed by Dan Gable and multiple Oklahoma State coaches before him?

[Theo Brixton]

5 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Hang on. How can Cael Sanderson destroy what was already destroyed by Dan Gable and multiple Oklahoma State coaches before him?

Tongue is partially in cheek but things are clearly different now compared to the 20, 30 or 40 years ago. No comment on the era where OSU reigned. Wrestling was less competitive then.

[BlacknGold]

With new transfer rules there will be multiple juggernauts. We saw it happen to Alabama football recently. First PSU will get everyone they want, then elite wrestlers will transfer to other big programs in response. Who it really hurts is the mid tier programs trying to stay afloat. They can lose some of their best guys any given offseason, and we will continue to see that happen with these portal rules and nil money involved. It will hard for programs with less talent and less money to keep their best guys, sadly

[crossface21]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Hang on. How can Cael Sanderson destroy what was already destroyed by Dan Gable and multiple Oklahoma State coaches before him?

Please post what you mean by this? This is not meant as an insult. I genuinely want to know. This is very intrguing to me. 

[Theo Brixton]

6 minutes ago, crossface21 said:

Please post what you mean by this? This is not meant as an insult. I genuinely want to know. This is very intrguing to me. 

He's claiming that there were periods of time where other teams and coaches had comparable dominance.

The era OSU won the bulk of their titles was a period where wrestling was less competitive than the today making dominance far easier to achieve.

It is true that Gable had a dominant run in the 80s. But in that era, athlete development played a more important role than today. You couldn't simply "buy" (recruit, whatever) wrestlers. They were not college-ready like they are today. And Tom Ryan aside, transferring was also obviously less prevalent. 

It is clear that the assessment and recruitment of elite talent is the key to success today in a way that is fundamentally different than previous eras. This is what Cael and Co. excel at like no one else in NCAA wrestling.

 

[Husker_Du]

your statements seem a bit contradictory.

are you saying psu does the best job at assessing and recruiting the right guys or are you saying that they just buy them?

even prior to the portal+NIL era, the narrative was (largely from the iowa fan base) that psu won because they got the best recruits.

and, to me, i frankly don't care. you'd have a difficult time convincing me that any other staff would have had their batting average with those same recruits. and you'd have zero chance convincing me that anyone else would have matched their level of dominance - which has been historic - with those same guys. 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

your statements seem a bit contradictory.

are you saying psu does the best job at assessing and recruiting the right guys or are you saying that they just buy them?

 

Yes.

No, seriously though, he already basically said he was kidding...kinda. In the sense that Cael has some grand scheme. Bernie Truax wanted to go to PSU. He was offered more elsewhere. He WANTED to go to PSU.

Messenbrink said he didn't care about the money, he wanted to go to the place that would give him the best chance to reach his goals.

He's gonna be working out with Levi Haines, Mark Hall, Vincenzo Joseph(he still there)...Facundo who...remember like 6 months ago was arguably the best of the 3 Freshmen and was in the deepest, toughest weight?

The kid could end up the 3rd stringer...and also one of the top 8 in the Country.

 

3 hours ago, BlacknGold said:

With new transfer rules there will be multiple juggernauts. We saw it happen to Alabama football recently. First PSU will get everyone they want, then elite wrestlers will transfer to other big programs in response. Who it really hurts is the mid tier programs trying to stay afloat. They can lose some of their best guys any given offseason, and we will continue to see that happen with these portal rules and nil money involved. It will hard for programs with less talent and less money to keep their best guys, sadly

I don't think we will see multiple juggernauts. 

Penn State is entering a new level right now. An era where they could look like the '83 Hawkeyes year after year.

You just cannot compare the current Wrestling Landscape with Football from any era. Alabama was always being pushed. It's just a totally different sport.

Even during 'Bama's run, they've had 2 undefeated seasons and each year they had games they VERY easily could have lost. In fact, I think they had to come from behind to be Auburn in his first NC run in the SEC Championship game and then nearly lost to Florida in their last.

 

Penn State is absolutely LAPPING the competition and the best Wrestlers are picking PSU over other programs, other blue blood programs with more money to offer because they just simply want to train at and wrestle for the best.

To compare it to Alabama, they'd have to have ~10 1st team AAs each year and then a couple of 2nd or 3rd teamers and dominate like dominate a whole helluva lot more than they have.

Penn State is more akin to where UConn was when they were in one of their 100 game winning streaks or the UCLA Bruins in the 60s and 70s.

They might as well get Vito and Nagao to transfer in while they're at it and have Vito go back down to '25. See if they can just sweep the NCAAs(again, I'm being hyperbolic here, but they have 8 legitimate Title Contenders as it stands, several '25 pounders who will come in and compete with Robbie Howard who finally got his shoulder fixed and even if Nagao ends up elsewhere, they're so loaded, it'll be a matter of winning the NCAAs by 70 or 90 points. 

This is the deepest, most talented team I've seen and they've got so much more talent coming through. Just imagine if Hopke ends up there. 

 

Not good for the sport, but it's going to be very interesting to watch and there's not much to do at this point than sit back and appreciate/respect what they've built.

[Theo Brixton]

2 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

your statements seem a bit contradictory.

are you saying psu does the best job at assessing and recruiting the right guys or are you saying that they just buy them?

even prior to the portal+NIL era, the narrative was (largely from the iowa fan base) that psu won because they got the best recruits.

and, to me, i frankly don't care. you'd have a difficult time convincing me that any other staff would have had their batting average with those same recruits. and you'd have zero chance convincing me that anyone else would have matched their level of dominance - which has been historic - with those same guys. 

Do I think PSU is offering Truax $250 K? No way. I would have to see the bank statement with my own eyes for me to believe that is happening anywhere. This would be toxic to team culture. Here is what I think happens: established guys are taken off scholarship and given money from boosters to cover the difference, maybe a little more. This gives the coaches the dry powder necessary to give substantial scholarships to blue-chippers every year. If this is legal, it would be foolish not to do it. This is what I assumed happened with NLWC money before, without proof.

Cael is a thoroughbred and relates to other elite athletes. I think his system, whatever it is, exactly, caters to this type of wrestler. For whatever reason, this system is not set up to coach up non-elite athletes. PSU has had plenty of holes in their lineup but it doesn't matter since the difference between a horrible wrestler and merely good is irrelevant in terms of NCAA points. It matters greatly in duals and is probably the reason Cael is vehemently opposed to changing the championship format. 

No doubt Cael is shrewd and uses every tool at his disposal to identify the right athletes. I suspect that is why he's your homeboy--what person has their finger on the pulse of high school recruits better than you? Who else on this planet knows which top recruits have overbearing fathers and will likely phone it in once away from home? Or were caught out past curfew at Cadet Worlds with some local babe from Tinder? These intangibles are essential to know who to pick. If I were Tom Brands, I would be kissing your ass too but I suspect he's too old school.

Recruitment trumps development and Cael gets this better than anyone. I think TNT are still stuck in a bygone era thinking they can turn pack mules into champions. I am not even sure Gable could do that today. 

At this point, PSU is experiencing a virtuous cycle. Success begets recruits which begets success which comes back to the original point of the thread. The only thing stopping PSU from having 8+ champs a year is the fact that elite wrestlers want to compete. If the NCAA allowed multiple entries, PSU's B-team would be the second-best team in the country.

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Theo Brixton

[AgaveMaria]

Why whine about someone who has a successful program?

Cael is doing Gable type of winning.

More power to him for his success. Hope he keeps it up.

Now if only the Campbell Fighting Camels can get a National Champ or two all will be right with the world.

[Not134]

Let's not forget that Gable had to listen to how he and Iowa winning so much were bad for the sport.  If I remember correctly, in an interview, he stated that he almost bought into it (i.e., that Iowa winning so much was bad for the sport) at one point, but then said, nah.  Also, while Penn St. did have 5 in the finals, they only had 2 champions with the other 80% of the titles spread around the likes of Princeton, Cornell (2), Northern Colorado, North Carolina, Missouri, Pitt, and Michigan.  The lack of competitiveness in the team race at the Championships seems to be the issue with some people.  I suppose whining about Penn State winning most every year is one course of action - working hard to unseat them is another.  I'm no Iowa fan, but I'd guess that Tom/Terry prefer the latter to the former and are working daily to make that happen.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

6 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

The era OSU won the bulk of their titles was a period where wrestling was less competitive than the today making dominance far easier to achieve.

Not only this, but back in the day travel was not what it is.  So depending on the location of nationals, some schools couldn't even afford to send all of their qualified wrestlers to compete.

The location of nationals and Oklahoma's central geography in the US gave it a decided advantage.  Wrestlers who understood this, likely factored it in to their school selection.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

3 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

Cael is a thoroughbred and relates to other elite athletes. I think his system, whatever it is, exactly, caters to this type of wrestler. For whatever reason, this system is not set up to coach up non-elite athletes.

Any public school teacher with 20+ students in their classroom can tell you students with lesser foundations from prior grade levels will take a disproportionate amount of time to bring up to current grade level standards.  And students with attitudes and effort inconsistent with learning will also occupy a disproportionate amount of a teacher's time.

This is the case regardless of the fact that each grade is teaching to specific grade-level standards.

There is nothing unique about Cael's system in this regard.  The only difference is Cael recruits wrestlers with a sufficient foundation and a demonstrated attitude and effort that he believes is consistent with achieving the highest level of wrestling.

Cael chooses to operate as a PhD professor of wrestling rather than an elementary school teacher of wrestling.  This is what he likes to do.  If he much more preferred to develop / improve lesser wrestlers, I do not doubt that he would be very successful doing so.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

3 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

I suspect that is why he's your homeboy--what person has their finger on the pulse of high school recruits better than you? Who else on this planet knows which top recruits have overbearing fathers and will likely phone it in once away from home? Or were caught out past curfew at Cadet Worlds with some local babe from Tinder? These intangibles are essential to know who to pick. If I were Tom Brands, I would be kissing your ass too but I suspect he's too old school.

I think @Husker_Du has made it publicly known that he and Cael go way back and competed at Reno at the same time while in HS.  They are contemporaries of the same generation.  Tom Brands is not.

This seems a much simpler explanation as to why Cael and Willie might be able to better relate to one another than Tom and Willie.  I doubt Cael kisses Willie's ass, vice versa, or either would even like the other if that's what they believed the other one was doing.

[Theo Brixton]

1 hour ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

I think @Husker_Du has made it publicly known that he and Cael go way back and competed at Reno at the same time while in HS.  They are contemporaries of the same generation.  Tom Brands is not.

This seems a much simpler explanation as to why Cael and Willie might be able to better relate to one another than Tom and Willie.  I doubt Cael kisses Willie's ass, vice versa, or either would even like the other if that's what they believed the other one was doing.

I didn't mean that as an insult to Willie but it came across harsher than intended. I am sure most people here, myself included, would love to have a beer with @Husker_Du. But you are out your mind if you don't think Cael is picking his brain. That's a compliment of the highest order.

1 hour ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

Any public school teacher with 20+ students in their classroom can tell you students with lesser foundations from prior grade levels will take a disproportionate amount of time to bring up to current grade level standards.  And students with attitudes and effort inconsistent with learning will also occupy a disproportionate amount of a teacher's time.

This is the case regardless of the fact that each grade is teaching to specific grade-level standards.

There is nothing unique about Cael's system in this regard.  The only difference is Cael recruits wrestlers with a sufficient foundation and a demonstrated attitude and effort that he believes is consistent with achieving the highest level of wrestling.

Cael chooses to operate as a PhD professor of wrestling rather than an elementary school teacher of wrestling.  This is what he likes to do.  If he much more preferred to develop / improve lesser wrestlers, I do not doubt that he would be very successful doing so.

 

Not sure I would completely agree with this. If wrestling is to be compared to academics, it's more like an art class than quantum mechanics. Everyone can sit at an easel and paint a bowl of fruit. The skilled teacher can critique and advise the 5 year old and the advanced student differently as he passes by so that it is productive for both. Even Askren has openly stated his surprise at the lack of development of some of PSU's lesser wrestlers. It speaks to importance of picking the right guys from the beginning. It also raises the question of what actually happens in a PSU practice. 

As an aside, I can't wait for Cael to have beef with Askren when Ben blabs some PSU gossip he hears from his AWA guys on FRL.

[nhs67]

It is a fairly good thing for NCAA D1 College Wrestling that the opinion of anybody in this thread means precisely dick.

The better Penn State is, the better it is for USA Wrestling.  This is coming from a non-Penn State fan, fwiw.

If you don't care about the health and competitiveness of USA Wrestling, you can eat shit and move yourself on off and join the rest of the Belarussian scum.

[Le duke]

Not sure I would completely agree with this. If wrestling is to be compared to academics, it's more like an art class than quantum mechanics. Everyone can sit at an easel and paint a bowl of fruit. The skilled teacher can critique and advise the 5 year old and the advanced student differently as he passes by so that it is productive for both. Even Askren has openly stated his surprise at the lack of development of some of PSU's lesser wrestlers. It speaks to importance of picking the right guys from the beginning. It also raises the question of what actually happens in a PSU practice. 
As an aside, I can't wait for Cael to have beef with Askren when Ben blabs some PSU gossip he hears from his AWA guys on FRL.

The problem with that is Ben is not operating with full, complete knowledge of a situation. Not saying that I am/was, but people say things on the PSU board that occasionally fill in the voids.

As an example, Askren would publicly wonder why SVN had no “good” wins going into the post season. His losses to that point were Murin (3x), Johnson and Sasso. He’d regularly say, “I’m surprised he hasn’t developed more.” What Ben didn’t know was that SVN’s redshirt year didn’t have much wrestling. Kind of hard to develop when you aren’t in the room.

Then, SVN took 3rd, beating Johnson, Henson and Parco. Played catchup all year and put it together (coaching helps here) at NCAAs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Theo Brixton]

17 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

The problem with that is Ben is not operating with full, complete knowledge of a situation. Not saying that I am/was, but people say things on the PSU board that occasionally fill in the voids.

As an example, Askren would publicly wonder why SVN had no “good” wins going into the post season. His losses to that point were Murin (3x), Johnson and Sasso. He’d regularly say, “I’m surprised he hasn’t developed more.” What Ben didn’t know was that SVN’s redshirt year didn’t have much wrestling. Kind of hard to develop when you aren’t in the room.

Then, SVN took 3rd, beating Johnson, Henson and Parco. Played catchup all year and put it together (coaching helps here) at NCAAs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

When I have heard Askren talk about this, I remember it in reference to the guys consistently losing and giving up bonus like their black hole at 125. Or Beau Bartlett when he was at the wrong weight class but that was just pushback because of Pyles' jock-riding. 

 

[PortaJohn]

57 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

The problem with that is Ben is not operating with full, complete knowledge of a situation. Not saying that I am/was, but people say things on the PSU board that occasionally fill in the voids.

As an example, Askren would publicly wonder why SVN had no “good” wins going into the post season. His losses to that point were Murin (3x), Johnson and Sasso. He’d regularly say, “I’m surprised he hasn’t developed more.” What Ben didn’t know was that SVN’s redshirt year didn’t have much wrestling. Kind of hard to develop when you aren’t in the room.

Then, SVN took 3rd, beating Johnson, Henson and Parco. Played catchup all year and put it together (coaching helps here) at NCAAs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

For PSU wrestling during the Cael era I put SVN's tournament run second only behind Quentin Wrights 2011 tournament campaign

[Antitroll2828]

15 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

For PSU wrestling during the Cael era I put SVN's tournament run second only behind Quentin Wrights 2011 tournament campaign

Over cenzos freshman run? He beat Keaton Subjeck 1st round who beat cenzo earlier in the year ,then ashworth, then Daniel Lewis and massa who were both ranked ahead of him all year then topped it off by pinning Imar 

[CHROMEBIRD]

3 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

Any public school teacher with 20+ students in their classroom can tell you students with lesser foundations from prior grade levels will take a disproportionate amount of time to bring up to current grade level standards.  And students with attitudes and effort inconsistent with learning will also occupy a disproportionate amount of a teacher's time.

This is the case regardless of the fact that each grade is teaching to specific grade-level standards.

There is nothing unique about Cael's system in this regard.  The only difference is Cael recruits wrestlers with a sufficient foundation and a demonstrated attitude and effort that he believes is consistent with achieving the highest level of wrestling.

Cael chooses to operate as a PhD professor of wrestling rather than an elementary school teacher of wrestling.  This is what he likes to do.  If he much more preferred to develop / improve lesser wrestlers, I do not doubt that he would be very successful doing so.

 

1 hour ago, Theo Brixton said:

Not sure I would completely agree with this. If wrestling is to be compared to academics, it's more like an art class than quantum mechanics. Everyone can sit at an easel and paint a bowl of fruit. The skilled teacher can critique and advise the 5 year old and the advanced student differently as he passes by so that it is productive for both. Even Askren has openly stated his surprise at the lack of development of some of PSU's lesser wrestlers. It speaks to importance of picking the right guys from the beginning. It also raises the question of what actually happens in a PSU practice. 

It could simply be that... college wrestling is really hard. Especially Div.I wrestling. Some guys excel, but many don't develop to where they need to be, even highly recruited guys. For every guy like Cassar who Cael/Casey coached up you have guys like Manville, Gulibon, Berge, and Joe Lee who dont meet expectations. I think the best thing coaches can do is to recruit guys with the raw talent AND a style that fits their system. Then see how much they improve between their first (RS/GS) and second year to see how they are developing and if the training is sticking. Tony Ramos famously spent most of his RS season learning how to sprawl (and lifting). Turns out that he didn't even have that one basic mechanic right at the start, but look how his career turned out.

[PortaJohn]

21 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Over cenzos freshman run? He beat Keaton Subjeck 1st round who beat cenzo earlier in the year ,then ashworth, then Daniel Lewis and massa who were both ranked ahead of him all year then topped it off by pinning Imar 

Yes I do.  For finals matches during the Cael era I have Cenzo's pin over Imar 2nd to Bo's finals pin of Martin

[Not134]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

It is a fairly good thing for NCAA D1 College Wrestling that the opinion of anybody in this thread means precisely dick.

The better Penn State is, the better it is for USA Wrestling.  This is coming from a non-Penn State fan, fwiw.

If you don't care about the health and competitiveness of USA Wrestling, you can eat shit and move yourself on off and join the rest of the Belarussian scum.

Damn...tell us how you really feel!

[VakAttack]

4 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

I didn't mean that as an insult to Willie but it came across harsher than intended. I am sure most people here, myself included, would love to have a beer with @Husker_Du.

Can confirm, Willie is a good beer drinking companion.

[nhs67]

35 minutes ago, Not134 said:

Damn...tell us how you really feel!

Rather sure I have been transparent on this ever since we had that 115 page thread on J'den Cox defecting to Belarus with a handful of Mizzou-gents.

Happily, both sides matured and moved on.