scourge165

Ok...well, disagree. I think most guys, especially the top guys go up at least one weight during their career and ultimately have more success at the higher weight. I think HWT is the hardest as you've got a ~90 pound difference in weight limits and...that's about it. Otherwise I'm just repeating myself that I think guys do better going up in weight. I wouldn't say he hurts it. He took a 5th in a year beating two guys who were 7-5 in the #37 seed from Stanford, Howard, the #22 seed who was 7-6 and then beat Taylor Lamonto prace out twice(a guy who was an AA at both 125, then moved up to 133 and was an AA again and is now at 141 and doing just fine. I'm going to end it here and...then really be done because I don't care to parse out the difference in Lamont Wrestling '25, taking a 6th, then not placing and then coming back in '23 with a better record, higher bonus rate at '33 and losing a 2-1 TB to Mendez and a 8-5 match to Vito(when he absolutely smoked Fix and RBY) is more impressive or better en route to taking a 7th. My argument is simple. Guys do better on balance when they move up. That is going to be impacted at the extremes when a guy just doesn't have the frame to move up like...I guess a few really small 125-pounders. Though I think that's more rare than guys who are tweeners and are at a larger, more inherent disadvantage than a 5'11 215LB "HWT."

You really think it's likely guys who wrestled at multiple weight classes would on balance do better at the lighter weight class vs the heavier weight? How many guys are going down a weight by the way? Aside from guys who a redshirting(like Sinclair who...is obviously not a '97 pounder)...how many guys are going to have seasons up a weight class? And most of the ones I can think of are outliers. Beau Bartlett who wrestled '49 because Lee was at '41 or Mike Poeta who had to Wrestle '65 It seems exceedingly obvious that going up and building has led to a lot more success than guys cutting or going down. That was the entire reason people wanted '57KG to go up because it's an unnaturally small weight class for 99% of adult Men and then the gap is so big, you're having guys like Vito not even trying to Micic looks like he's on death's door(or Rivera, even RBY). But, sticking to College? Yeah, I'd feeling pretty confident if you went back to the last 25 tournaments, guys have had quite a bit more success at higher weights than they have had at lower weights. Though...again, mostly just for common sense reasons. Because guys lift and grow into weight classes or they're forced to cut earlier on. Feels like you only accomplished the opposite and it did make you appear biased as you've brought this issue up multiple times now where...it's really not relevant. This was about the 197 weight class and YOU made it about 125. I also wouldn't call 125 a child's weight because I don't want to be a dick, but it's pretty small. Spencer Lee is...what, 5'2? He's a great Wrestler, but...that's pretty small guy and a bit of an outlier. Taylor Lamont then came back and didn't place at '25 the next year. How about Michael McGee? DNP in 2 chance at '25, 3X AA at '33. You brought up Vito. Lets see what...Davis does this year or Stanich in a year or two, or...I don't know, most guys who grow out of '25. But now we're stuck talking exclusively about the 125-pound weight class when that's not the point I'm making. I agree...if you've got too small of a frame to put on weight and move up like Kasak has or Haines or Yianni, Dake, Taylor...whoever, then it's going to be a pretty tough jump but I don't think you're going to find empirical data to defend the; argument. I'd bet it's the exact opposite. But I'm just not as invested in this, so I'm not going to match you on going back and looking this up. I'm just pulling the most obvious names I can think of. I used Bastida because this thread was very specifically about 197 and HWT and now it shifted. I'd use Garrett Lowney or a few DOZEN other guys who were lighter HWTs who struggled because they were just too small for the weight...which is where the entire discussion originated from. The gap between 197 and HWT. I'll also use Ethan Laird, but you'll now just say I'm only using two guys. The point is it's difficult to go from Wrestling 197 to having to Wrestle guys who are 260 or heavier if you get a guy like Mocco or whoever. "He is absolutely doing better at HWT." Sure...unless you use NCAA Tournament results, but we're so far from the actual subject, we're more on your very narrow argument. I'll take the bet that more guys have success at higher weights than lower weights...period. Going up...is better. It's healthier, it makes Wrestlers better and it's been better for the sport. It was better when they moved the weights up and I think it's better for a guy to lift and add weight and muscle than to spend their career cutting. That's my point. You believe guys do better staying at their weight or moving down. That's the lane I'm staying in rather than jumping all over the place now.

The powdered blue Wigs more than make up for it though.

He lost an OT match to Davidson who he'd bet in a close match earlier in the year. But no, he didn't do better at HWT. It's pretty easy to see actually. He took a 5th at 197 and a DNP at HWT. And he did that in his first year of Wrestling Folkstyle Wrestling competitively...most Freshmen have trouble on the mat. A Cuban guy who never Wrestled on the Mat, he's probably going to have more problems down there. 5th>DNP And everyone's hurting at the end of the year. You realize...guys best finishes TEND to be when they're at the end of their careers, right? It's really not that shocking... They SHOULD do better as a Sr than they did as a Freshmen and so on. You're assuming they're doing better because of the weight class vs the fact that they've gone from HS Wrestling to now Wresting 4-5 years in College...with a College Strength and Conditioning program and College diets and College Coaches. So yeah, just as with Nickal, or Brooks, I don't find it particularly shocking they did their best...as they finished up their careers. Seriously? This is why you keep bringing up the suggestion that they move 197 up a big like it's an existential threat to the sport? Because you were a 125? Again, MOST people end up doing better when they move up and mature physically. Throwing out Vito Arajau does...nothing to dissuade me from that argument. Well...I guess Davis from Penn State has a chance to make history this year then Except McGee from ASU already has(and I'm not going to spend time going back to look into this as...I don't know if you're so defensive and that's why you're missing my larger point or if you are intentionally missing it, but I suspect it's the prior). McGee 6,4,3(shockingly, as he got older, he did better) and NQ/R16 at 125). You've also change the criteria now to "failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 an AA'd," when it was simply just gotten better(and ignored that I was clearly referring to EVERY weight and apparently just happened to pick the one you Wrestled at). Then you'd also have a harder time making the argument that 197 is such a soft weight class. But...here again...better as they got older. Lets take the NCs each year every year and see how they did as a Jr and Sr vs Fresh and Soph. Where do you think there's a bigger correlation? Their grade or the weight?

Yeah, LOL...I understood the topic, I just hadn't seen them. And now that I have, they don't really seem that bad. Tar-Heel Blue and White Shirts. I think the fact that the shirts hang down looks stupid, but that's about it.

Yeah...I'd imagine that's pretty common when you're talking about 3X Champs or 3X Finalists and a 2X Champ at any weight. I'd guess if they move up, they'd probably have a higher bonus rate irrespective of weight class. It shouldn't really be shocking that Starocci is having a higher bonus rate this year. Also...Kyle Snyder won a World Championship not long after he was unable to win the B1Gs or the NCAAS at 197...so I'd still probably include him instead of holding that against 197. That was also the same year J'Den Cox took a 5th at 197. You seem pretty fixated on this "people think we need more upper weight," when really...the ONLY thing I've seen is people suggesting adjusting the weights so they look a little closer to the rest of the world and the jump isn't 197 to 285. And 197s "often" do better at HWT? I don't know, is that true? What constitutes often? 165's often do better at 174, 125's often do better at 133. And some of these examples are really bad. Bo Nickal? Again, the guy who was in the finals as a Freshmen? Stands to reason there's a pretty good chance he'll have success 3 years later. He moved up to 184 and did better. The guy that beat him at 174 did worse. He went up to 197 and had even more success. I don't think there's some larger point being made there. If '97 was so much easier, Starocci would probably have followed through and Wrestled it. I think what you're doing is confirmation bias. You've got a conclusion and you're working back and saying the facts fit your bias. Not sure they do. Yonger Bastida in a year in which he couldn't go down in a match or he was..in a LOT of trouble, he took a 5th at 197 due to his Freestyle Wrestling. He hasn't placed at HWT because it's a BIG jump in size.

Did they just switch it up this year? And if so, was it really to save wrestling? I haven't seen them, got an example?

Well...for the sake of the argument, I don't think they'd apply to tournaments, but yeah, I don't like them. What do you do? Waivers for shoes? Or is that included? Two hours, that works. It's not like the old Wild West, when guys were cutting their nuts off. Guys died. Now, guy are moving up because...they don't want to spend 4-5 years being miserable cutting weight. 25 years ago Mesenbrink would be a '57(probably at UNI or something), guys like Kasak would be '49 pounders, SVN would be a '41. Barr probably...'74. Sinclair would be a...'49! Ok, little hyperbolic on that one, but '57/'65 isn't crazy the way they cut before the rule change. I think that change has allowed the sport to grow so much. When you're not spending every day focused on your weight, you're getting stronger, working in practice on something other than just sweating and being ground down. For all the hand-wringing over the problems with the sport, I see more talent and better Wrestling than ever. ***Off Topic, but just got to thinking about a hypothetical duel 25 years apart and remembered how awesome that '99 class was, so...just wanted to suggest it. I'd like to see a 1999 vs 2024 hypothetical duel; 125-Stephen Abas(Soph) vs? 133-Guerrero(3rd Title) vs Crookham 141-Schwab vs Mendez 149-TJ Williams vs Henson/SVN 157-Casey Cunningham vs Kasak 165-Kirk White vs Mesenbrink 174-Glenn Pritzlaff vs O'Toole/Haines 184-Cael(Freshmen)vs Starroci 197-Hartung vs....? HWT-Neal vs Gable That list on the left is a completed, finished list. The one on the right is not. I think Lillendahl could end up with 2-3 or even 4 titles, I think Crookham lost his last match last year when he took a 3rd, Mendez is on his way to potentially winning 3, Hensen the defending Champ or SVN, 3rd as a True Fresh, Kasak, same. Mesenbrink, like Cookham, I believe he's lost his last College match, O'Toole and Haines are going to end up with 5 titles between the two and they'll end up with 4 more top 3 finishes. 5X for Starroci, who knows about Barr and Gable is the greatest D1 HWT Wrestler of all-time, I'll let the old heads discuss him vs the 6X Champ who went on to become a stud for the Steelers!

Oh...well, in that case, I have no problem. I'm fairly sure the same thing happened when Barr wrestled Mirsaola. Barr spanked him pretty good. 10-1 IIRC? Mirasola wasn't going to Wrestle this year anyway(most likely)...but he wrestled the match. I get he's not a Ferrari level recruit, but he's not far off. I'm good with that. Let the loser know where he stands. Mirasola now knows he's not all that close to Barr at the moment. The biggest leap Wrestlers make is usually during their Freshmen season, in-season, going through the practices and then, in my experience, Soph year when you know what it takes. So I'd let them all Wrestle. If Starocci and Brooks were both at '84 as one was taking a RS, I'd let them Wrestle. I don't think it hurts anyone, only helps. You can't be scared of taking losses. That's almost certainly going to happen.

This is exactly what I'd do. -You're losing a LOT(most) of the top HWT talents to Football. -Of those who are left...there's still certainly a lot of talent and guys you can pick here and there who would thrive, but enough to fill up another weight class? I don't know...Keuter, Feldman, Trumble, Bastida, Pitzer...I don't even know who else, but a lot of the HWTs would cut to the 225 or 220 weight pretty easily. Even the 215. So as I said in another thread, I'd bump each weight up a bit. Not sure how I'd do that, but...make MFF Classes make some sense...they skew too heavy though(particularly given my argument about losing a lot of athletes to Football). 125, 134, 143, 154, 163, 174, 190, 203, 214, 276 Makes those 125, 133, 142, 150, 158, 167, 177, 190, 212, 285 I'd say make it matside weighins as that's...apparently popular, but I wouldn't do that. Just make those the weights. I should have read all the way down. That's similar to what I'd do.

Why would this burn a year? You have 4 dates...he's only used the one far as I know. Couldn't or shouldn't he have 3 more? And if you're talking about the Soldier Salute, would that even count as a date? You RS, you can wrestle unattached at opens...so I'm missing something. What is it?

Is it? YOU think it's an excuse? That's kinda pathetic. I don't view it much of an excuse...

That's a joke from...I can't remember the name, but the guy who makes all those Yellowstone shows, one of the new shows they make it on(and it's Tyler Sheridan and Landman is the name of the show). ...I was going to explain it, but I'll l just leave this here. (Also, I don't know how people report their drinking, but I am very skeptical of the stats as Wisconsin had like 8 of the 10 drunkest Counties in the Country...now we drink here, but C'mon...tell me WV, Louisiana, Jersey, we're exponentially worse than those states? Our Drunk Driving laws are, but...well, anyway).

I hope he does(or at least did). He still did those things if he got sloppy drunk, but...if they(AJ and Anthony) did some of those things without Alcohol impacting their judgment, it just makes it that much worse.

Yeah, that was a pretty compelling and damning argument against going to Iowa. I don't really understand the debate here. I don't believe any Iowa Wrestling fan is actually happy with the "other than Penn State," asterisk that they keep using, or the 'what about Mesenbrink, Kerk...." I don't think anyone's saying the problem with Iowa is that they're recruiting guys like Woods or Teamer who were AAs, the problem is...they haven't done nearly as well at getting their own blue-chip recruits to come in and have a lot of immediate success. This Iowa. It's like Alabama Football. Does anyone think 'Bama is going to suddenly become alright with, 'well, other than Georgia how many team shave been better?' Brands started off his run at Iowa with the Va Tech 5. Those were 5 High School studs who came to Wrestle for him. That they had to transfer after sitting a year(like Mesenbrink or Kerk) isn't the point. Just as with Metcalf, Borschel, neither used a year of eligibility elsewhere. Penn State and Ohio State were always underachieving given the in-state talent. Iowa to a lesser extent, Okie State got the blue chip recruits because that's where you went if you wanted to be a part of something bigger, wanted to win multiple titles, team titles and maybe have international success. Now that Cael and Ryan are getting those blue chip recruits, it seems like Iowa needs something else. Okie State went and got David Taylor and certainly seems to be on the right track, but...Iowa appears like they're falling behind and using the money they have to buy a few guys each year who were high AAs. That'll keep a program like Iowa in the team trophy race, but...I'm not sure it's going to get them back to where they expect to be(unless they don't expect to be there any longer). Perhaps Bassett, Forrest and Ross end up at Iowa and can help get Iowa back to the Mt top. It's also help if Arnold, Ferrari and Keuter all live up to their potential and then stick around and pursue careers with the HWC at the Sr level. That'd be a massive boost. And before the "Iowa hater/PSU fan," comes out, I'm neither. I am amazed at what PSU is doing...but I grew up doing the same with Iowa...I just see the gap widening between them and PSU while it appears to be closing with the OSU's behind them. If it was JUST about picking up transfers, we'd be talking about Michigan.

Yeah, a little bit. I have no particular reason to be a Poeta fan, but re-watching the matchup with Burroughs was extremely frustrating. Burroughs was backing up the whole match...and I get that was part of his style then, get guys to step and hit that double. It was even a bigger part of his style for his first title as he really was more versatile and his hand fighting was pretty damn tough as he moved on. He had more than just a blast double. But the WHOLE match he's backing out of bounds. Again though, you can do this for anyone. Yeah, he was a stud as well. Running into Cael going for that 159th win was...pretty tough to overcome. I was also a fan of the Lehigh team when they had Letters and Trenge and some of those other horses. They usually looked like they were about a weight class or two bigger than what they wrestled.

There are a lot of guys who can be on this list. There are guys like Moore and Pletcher who almost belong on another list. Guys who got screwed and lost the '20 season to end their careers. I'd give the benefit of the doubt to Hayden as he lost that '20 season as well...plus, Deakin seemed to...tighten up in the NCAAs(nearly got stuck the year he won it) but he still would have had to go through Carr to get there. He also got beaten by guys like Teamer...which isn't the worst loss, but it was Teamer's first year as an AA. Trent, he got 5 years. He was one of the best over those 5 years, 2 times he lost to Brooks in the finals...but also those losses to guys like Hunter Bolen... Eh, I guess if you're on the "best to never win it," list, you're going to have some bad losses. Sometimes it's just brutal matchups like Jordan Burroughs in the finals or Aaron Brooks and sometimes it's just not Wrestling your best in March and I'll throw Deakin in there since he did win one and I don't wanna call anyone else out.

Yeah...they were really good as well. Obviously when you have a kid who is a 4 time finalist...he's gonna be in the conversation(while taking a Silver in the World Championships). I just think Poeta gets overlooked. Just so clean. Had to Wrestle up at '65 as I think the two Tirapelle brothers were still there(I think, at least ), then went 3/2/2 at '57. Pretty similar to Gillman. Was a backup as a Freshmen, Poeta went up.

Mike Poeta is one of the best Wrestlers to not win a title since 2000. That's...really got nothing to do with anything, but he was so explosive, so smooth.

I'd be more in favor of spreading them out a bit rather than adding one. Maybe start after '41. 149-152 157-163 165-174 174-190 184-205 There just arent' enough really good big guys to have a 235 and a 285. Or a 235 and even a 300-HWT(though that would make it easier for guys LIKE Dilian Johnson or Nash to Wrestle and play FB.

Ok...and now he's at 174. That's moving up nearly 20 pounds. I think it fits.

You're acting like this is my own preference. That was literally the topic. PSU guys have been gaining weight... So it is kinda relevant where they start out. And....again, to be clear here, this wasn't me who brought this topic up. But it was about Penn State...

But why would we? This is about Penn State. If it was just about biggest growth spurts...I'd have mentioned Tommy Rowlands. I think he wrestled at every weight in HS. I just included the last weight Haines wrestled at in HS as using the International Weights is more difficult as it often forces guys to go up or down. But it wasn't about who "wins" it was just..Haines last Wrestled at 45 in HS, '57 and now '74. Anthony Cassar, the only guy to beat Gable, '97 and then actually moved up and added enough weight to win a HWT title. Truax also started at '74, then '84 to '97 then back to '84. Bartlett was Wrestling up at '49. He was a '38 pounder in HS...only moved up to '49 to get into the lineup.

I looked several times and saw no Haines Haines 145 HS->157 ->174 That's a pretty substantial jump Ed Ruth 174-184 Didn't Q. Wright go from '74-'84 to '97?

Yeah, as a coach you put the best guys out there. And I know the Wrestlers understand. That's kinda my point. They could have 3-4 of the best 157/165 in the Country in a year and only 2 can Wrestle. Not many College kids want to start 2 years after being a backup for 2 years when they know they could be Wrestling in the Semis with a SHOT as Fresh/Soph. You need good backups. You don't need a NC in waiting at every weight. And yes, you let it take care of itself. We're just talking about how that's going to happen. That said, this is about Wolbert, a kid who's a stud and should get his own thread, so I'm not even sure how this turned into a PSU thread! I've forgotten. It'll be fun to watch! Sinclair is wrestling 197 right now. I think Wolbert is taller. They clearly have different builds, but he looks like Kasak when he was a '38 and he was cutting(because...Penn and not Wisconsin). You watch and he's taller than a lot of the guys he's Wrestling. He could add some muscle and cut to '41 but the trend seems to be to cut less, build up more and enjoy the sport. That's Cael's ideology from what I can tell, Askren's and DT had a little success when he added a few pounds.