scourge165

Fair enough, but is this any different than the past? Not sure it is. The difference now is it's easier for a kid who's stuck behind a Max Dean to transfer and not lose a year of eligibility. This is one of those things that really hurt Women's Basketball, or most of the...people get upset when I use the word "Niche" but the...smaller sports? The non-revenue generating. However you'd like to phrase it, but when you know before the season who's going to win, it's not good for the sport. You knew UConn was going to win WCBB for years, before that it was Tennessee. Even if you didn't follow it, you knew that. The one thing Wrestling has going for it at all levels, you obviously don't know who's going to win the individual weights and that brings in fans from every school. That is one thing that makes the sport so great. You can find guys from anywhere. Northern Colorado can beat the #1 ranked Wrestler from the University of Iowa. You can have guys who didn't win a State Title win a NC. You can have a guy who didn't Wrestle in HS win 6 NCs!...though Haslerig may have had a tougher time today, still, it happened. All the same, it'd be nice to see a little more intrigue as it pertains to the team Champs.

As it's too late to edit this, I wish I'd have clarified. I'm not talking about 3rd graders when talking about high level. I'm going into this with the expectation that you're not having a 3rd grader...or...hopefully any kid cutting weight, though I have seen it. I don't think a 3rd grader should be doing more than going to a practice maybe twice a week for 90 minutes with a nice warm up, a little technique, and then some shit to make it fun. This wouldn't apply to any kids, this wouldn't apply to any beginning Wrestlers, JV Wrestlers... I used "High level." That can mean a kid Wrestling out at Fargo, it can mean State...it was more directed to COLLEGE athletes or Sr level athletes as...again, this is a COLLEGE Forum. But no, this was obviously NEVER meant for Youth Wrestlers.

It's WAY worse with women. I don't know how many video's on YT I've seen where they have a title with "Nasty Women Wrestling," and they're not strictly sexual(though they certainly dramatize the "but drag," as though it's something sexual) but they'll show maybe a SLIGHTLY aggressive hand to the face...or just regular head snaps. Those are almost funny because I don't think I've seen one yet that I'd give a second thought to. It basically seems like a way to say that Wrestling isn't "lady-like." I'd think with UFC, this shit would stop. They get into a lot of the same situations. They're on their back, they try to get into their guard, wrap their legs around you, you try an get the back. Pretty obvious there's nothing sexual about it... This video is so silly though, I can kinda laugh about it. It really is just sophomoric type humor.

That's another thing. This just switched over to youth Wrestling because Formally140 got all up in his feelings and personally insulted because I said the sport isn't fun if you're not WINNING(or getting better) and that the sport was more rewarding...and then he just went off about his High School team. We're on a College Forum, why do you think this is limited to youth Wrestling?

I think things will settle in. You create bonds and friendships at a school...and while being recruited or wanted is always nice, I think schools will get burned by kids, kids will regret their choices, others will show a bit more loyalty. I don't see any school just adding kids and giving them NIL just so they can "thin out" other teams, their competition. Especially since PSU is the primary team doing it and they've got guys going there making them 2-3 deep at some weights...which will probably sort itself out and they'll likely end up losing Wrestlers and become a victim of their own success. Mirasola's, Ryder, Barr, Sealey, on top of Haines, Van Ness Facundo, there are guys who just won't be able to make the lineup from '65-97, guys who are high AA caliber Wrestlers who'll likely end up elsewhere. It is sad to see the kids who have success at smaller schools leave. To play devils advocate though, if Caleb Smith(hypothetically) is having success at App State, how much could he potentially improve at PSU in that room with those partners? At the same time, even if there are only 3-4 programs who are really competitive, is that really that much difference Wrestling since Gable became an assistant coach at Iowa? Iowa and PSU have dominated on the two sides with Okie State having a dominant run or two sprinkled in. 41 Titles for Iowa, Okie St, PSU 3 for Minnesota 2 for Iowa State 1 for ASU 1 for OSU (I just did a cursory glance, I may be missing someone) It's not great for the sport, no question about that. The portal is certainly another tool to help the rich stay rich, but I'm not sure how we combat that. A guy like Koll at OU could maybe help them become competitive again. A new wave of coaches could certainly help. Jordan Burroughs, David Taylor, Kyle Dake. Missouri looks like they MIGHT be able to break through. But I guess we just have to root for the uneven results from the portal so programs aren't investing into a Wrester another school developed and started to have success with. It's a shitty situation, but it's also what we've had as long as I can recall.

LOL...of course that's great. Being in a high profile match. I promise it wasn't "fun" losing that match...but the problem is, we're getting Dad's translation of the son. As I said previously, it can be rewarding. That's a sense of accomplishment when you wrestle someone who pushes you, you leave it all on the mat. You can lose that match and still come away feeling good as you can believe you're IMPROVING. Which...again, from my very first post. But again, no Wrestler enjoys losing. I don't believe any high level athlete does. As Vince Lombardi said; As for the resume stuff, yeah, that's pretty classless, but consider the source. I would certainly not point to any of Max or Otto's failures and shit on their resume...just because I've said repeatedly, I respect everyone who actually steps on the mat. They ACTUALLY understand what the sport is. If you haven't done that...you don't. And again, I have LBJ on ignore, but he's asked me constantly about my "credentials," or "resume," in situations where it really has absolutely nothing to do with the larger point. Listing off accomplishments or Wrestlers I've beat in a discussion like this feels a bit...self aggrandizing. I mean, I suppose I could ask my Dad to come on here and comment, or any number of coaches, but they likely all give me a funny look and just laugh! Particularly my Dad. He's a little classier and reserved. He's always said my accomplishments are not his(though, I do beg to differ). I've never heard him come back from a National Tourney and say, "WE were All-Americans." Hell, I don't think he' ever said, "he," referring to me was. Maybe if prompted, "how did he finish up," he may have. In any event, I'm quite secure in my accomplishments and my resume. The crux of the issue there is that I said I thought Greco was the easier style of Wrestling(which...again, for the umpteenth time, I would have NEVER gotten into had he not said Freestyle of Folkstyle were not "real" Wrestling(oddly enough, only the style his sons have had success at are "real" Wrestling. Just in general though, this has just been a weird discussion. LBJ, I mean, I get his trolling. I've hit on some sore spots. Formally just seems oddly sensitive about my initial post. It seems like it started when I stated that I didn't think Wrestling could reach Basketball/Football level success, he took a great deal of offense. And, as always, LBJs participation makes it all the stranger given he's said Folkstyle and Freestyle are not "real Wrestling," and only Greco is. I suspect I know why that is, but I'll keep that to myself.

Agreed. It feels like there's a lot of cherry picking going on here. That's to be expected when LJB comes into the conversation and tells us about his kids... As for the "embracing competition," you responded to, it's kinda funny, the people who accuse me of being "pedantic" by claiming I keep talking about "participation" trophies, I'll reiterate'; As for competition I said;

Shit, I didn't know that. I just so he had Hodkins Lymphoma. Got that in '82, went through treatment in '83(or at least much of it) and he STILL Wrestled at and Won the Olympics? That's impressive. I mean...even had he lost, the drain cancer takes out of you indescribable.

Yes, he went there. The dispute comes in who stopped being friends with who and the spin now(or maybe not spin)...who's to say. If you like Trump, he was so outraged over Epstein hitting on a younger women, he banned him from the club. If you don't, Epstein thought Trump was dishonest and their friendship stopped over some business dealings. I'm sure you have seen the comments where Trump "I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy.He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it - Jeffrey enjoys his social life." He was also accused or raping a 13 year old girl with Epstien. That lawsuit went away before the election I believe. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/trump-rape-13-year-old-lawsuit-katie-johnson-allegation (I posted the first link that I saw. The story isn't about the opinions in there, it's just the fact that he was in fact sued by a women who claims she was raped). We is known is that Trump was on the Epstein plane once according to flight records. Maybe that's because he had his own private plane, maybe it's because he only went there once...I don't know. Trump doesn't do himself any favors by bragging about how he can walk into the changing rooms as Mrs. Teen USA pageants while they're getting dressed because he "owns the thing," or pointing at a 12 year old girl and saying, "I'll be dating her in 10 years," loudly...on video.

You should go on social media. There was an a huge double standard. Largely...because people didn't know a lot of the other Wrestlers wrestling. Casual Wrestling fans didn't care about other guys MFFs. They knew about Spencer Lee and he got the shit. This isn't even in dispute. Also, among the diehards. There weren't people asking why there was a MFF at 184 and where was Trey Munoz and a fake story about Trey Munoz leaving the City. Yeah, but he didn't do anything like that. He did say there were much higher expectations for him, he tried to downplay the injury and talk about how much of a stud Ramos is. The kid had to try and walk a razor thin line without sounding like he was making excuses and diminishing his opponents and also trying to be honest. I'm no ta big Iowa fan. I'm not a particularly big Spencer Lee fan. I thought he did as well as he could have. Finally, you keep saying, "shoe me all the threads." Social Media is bigger than just this forum or any of the Wrestling forums. The shit on Twitter was ruthless. The people going onto his stream were people who I assume went out of their way to talk shit to him just...because they're bored pathetic people(he talked about streaming while playing video games...which is a weird concept to me, but also a very real thing that people make insane amounts of money for...watching someone else play video games...which has to be a new era of lazy in this country).

I'm just going to re-post my initial paragraph that got Formally so upset and leave this conversation alone;

Just bored, looking at some old brackets, the 1983 Iowa team was INCREDIBLE. First of all, B1G Championship. They lost 2 matches...the ENTIRE TOURNAMENT. Rico Chiapparelli took 4th. Those were the TWO losses. They had 9...CHAMPS. 9 out of 10 Iowa Wrestlers ran through the B1G. NCAAs. 9 AAs Weight/AA finish/Name/Seed 118-5th Tim Riley(8) 126-1st Barry Davis(1) 134-5th Jeff Kerber(6th) 142-3rd Harlan Kistler(3) 150-4th Jim Heffernan(4) Future NCAA Champion 158-1st Jim Zalesky(1) 167-DNP-Rico Chiapparelli(unseeded) Future NCAA Champion 177-2 Duane Goldman(3) Future NCAA Champion 190-1st Ed Banach(2) ULM-1st Lou Banach(1) 9 in the top 5 5 in the finals Goldman lost 4-2 to Mark Schultz 155 points which equates to ~177 using today's scoring Rico Chiapperlli best 7 seed Rd 1, pinned in the prelims, lost in the Quarters and then lost in the Rd12 to an AA Future NC(in on one of the great scrambles at 190). ***I'm not giving extra credit for what they did in the future, just mentioning it at an aside. So 7 Champs total, 9 top 5, the "hole" was the 4th place finisher at the B1Gs and again, future NC. Starting with Freshmen eligibility, can anyone match this type of dominance? I remember Minnesota winning the NCAA with 10 AAs...and that was INCREDIBLY impressive, but they didn't win a NC. This team won 4, a 5th lost to one of the greatest Wrestlers ever 4-2 and had 9 AAs. Can anyone one-up the 1983 Iowa Squad? Their 1992 team I've seen mentioned...but 1983 seems like they were the deepest and HAS to be the best duel team in the "modern" era. But I'd love to be proven wrong. And does anyone think we could see this again? Personally, I'm looking at PSU net year(not as the 2nd best ever, just as a team that COULD challenge if the rumors end up being true and things fall right as a team that could come close. If they get Nagao at 133(5th last year), Howard comes back strong at 125(top 5?), Barnett at 141(3rd), Van Ness at 149(3), Haines at '57(2nd), Facundo at 165(1-2...really hard to see him top 5 with returning talent), Starocci at 174(odds on favorite), Brooks probably at 197(again, clear favorite). Kerkvliet at HWT-His appeareance could have been due to an injury, but I thought he'd win it this year and he just looked disinterested). So that'd be POTENTIALLY Top ~5 5 3 3 2 DNP NC ??? Barr Love his length and how aggressive he is, think he needs a year, but someone is gonna have to get thrown in here. 197-NC HWT-NC??? I mean, he should be...but he also shouldn't have spent 8 minutes of a 7 minute match with his forehead on the mat. Facundo at 165 with potential ORS could move up. He is a blue chipper but even if you take O'Toole, Carr out of this bracket, it's still no lock. 184 is gonna be a VERY tough ask of Barr...though again, I think he fits the PSU mold and will improve drastically, but not that drastically. Not with Hidlay, Parker, Truax to start with likely at 184. I don't see anyone touching that '83 Iowa team for a while. Thoughts?

Hasn't NC State had a couple top 5 classes in a row? Now that metric may be overrated as Okie State can get just two BIG time recruits(Carroll and Thompson) and they may not have the depth, but those two can make a class. Though...they had 3-4 other studs who were top ~50 type guys. The facility is outstanding, but I think you're underestimating the growth of the South and the region Va Tech/NC State is recruiting to now. I'd definitely still learn towards OSU, but it's tightening up.

This will be interesting. Okie State was a blue blood. It was Okie State, Iowa, Iowa State and I'd include Minnesota(maybe due to my age). But those 4 programs more than others. PSU and OSU were always underperforming. They were good, but not NC good. ASU should be thrown in there, but they were more hit or miss. Now it feels like there is a big swing to those ACC, East Coast/Southern Schools, particularly NC State and Va Tech. Are they kinda catching the Oklahoma Schools in the big picture or is this a blip? With MMA having an impact and a lot more talent coming from the South, not to mention being in a conference with Pitt, so they can recruit Penn as they have with Sasso or NJ as they did with Mullen, a pretty impressive '97/HWT combination. And I think Sasso, if he can just add some muscle, his style of Wrestling could be tough. He's gonna take some beatings next year I'd think vs the likes of Thumble...if he starts right out of the gate, or not. He's so long, I don't know what his plan is, but he's an underrated Wrestler at 38 P4P IMO. Is the landscape shifting, or will Koll and Pendleton come in here and course correct?

Sure. There are a couple programs I think you go into with your eyes wide open knowing that you either produce or they'll try and bring someone in to replace you. It'll still be up to Teske to try and hold him off, but if Iowa is trying to get back to being IOWA and winning National Titles, they need to get the best. PSU just lost Beard, a guy who looks as though he'll be a contender the next two years. Who took a 7th as a Freshmen...

YES!!!! Thank you! And that sense of accomplishment, the work you put into it that just sucks, the 6 hour runs in the morning, the workout during lunch because you've got to make weight, the extra lifting, whatever it is, none of that is "fun." That is the point I was making. That's what's different than Baseball. The level of intensity. You have NOBODY else out there to rely on. Your own work determines your success. I don't know what I said here that was so controversial. This started off(when I got into it) by simply stating Wrestling was different. That the payoffs, the "fun," or if you want to be pedantic and ignore where I said "rewarding" comes AFTER the hard work. I got a lecture in how well a team was doing to disprove that....I mean, that's wonderful. I applaud that. I really do. I don't know how that fundamentally changes any point I made.

My VERY first paragraph in response to you was; I made a single reference about "participation" trophies and that was in response to a cliché post about "someone wins, someone loses, life goes on. You talk of being "pedantic?" So yeah, that's not what got you all pissy. You seemed to be set on that to begin. This also started out with a you talking about how the people who think this is a "niche sport" are "tuff guys who don't want their prodigy's to lose to Jordan Burroughs," and the inference that the only thing that stopped Wrestling from reaching the audience Basketball or Football had was because we didn't see the "big picture," and weren't "proactive." I said we'd have to agree to disagree and you've insulted me about a half dozen times on here. You had your back up for some bizarre reason from the start. I've said Wrestling is not FUN, it's REWARDING. That's been the throughline the ENTIRE time. That winning is fun. The process can be Rewarding. That's how it differs from other sports. That you've had success at your HS doesn't change that, it actually seems to confirm that. You just told me how your team tripled their wins(or kids on it did) and you have several kids who were enthusiastic because they'd won most improved Wrestler. So that's be GETTING BETTER, no? That's a VERY different type of "fun" than you have playing baseball or football. That is...again, a sense of accomplishment, a rewarding feeling. THAT is what makes the sport unique. Referencing back to Spencer Lee..."practice is miserable." That is an extreme perhaps from Iowa, but Wrestling practice by it's nature is going to be more difficult, more physically demanding than other sports. That's what sets it apart. This again, is where you insulted me and said if you can't find a way to make Wrestling fun, you're either "incompetent or ignorant." I said, this is why I believe that's why Wrestling isn't and hasn't been as popular as Basketball or Football. The work that it takes to get there. Those are my thoughts on why Wrestling isn't on the Level of Basketball or Football. You claimed several pages ago it could be if not for...and then I asked and you said you weren't going to waste your time. I think I've been pretty consistent and you seem like you're just...angry.

That's what makes you want to work and push through and get better...and that's what makes it all the more rewarding/fun(I've used them interchangeably) when you DO win.

I'm really not sure exactly what your issue here is. I've had...minimal interaction with you on here and you seem like you're taking this very personally for some reason. There are a lot of things you can do to build a great program...and it's great to hear you're doing that and you've got a lot of kids having success and improving. Building a culture where Wrestling is successful is enormously important. As I said, my HS would have 70 kids out for the team because we had a good program. It was popular, community support, etc... Kids wanted to be a part of it. We had kids quit, but we'd still end up with ~50 or so because we were successful. Going to and winning tournaments or team state helped. Improving and kids making big gains leads to them winning more. Being a part of something larger can obviously get kids to buy in. I started this by saying Wrestling was rewarding more than it was fun. You're accomplishing a goal or working toward one. I just said I could have fun in a practice where I got my ass kicked. I thought we were talking about a College Wrestling season and making Wrestling a mainstream sport, but...in any event, kids generally stay engaged if they're having success. That can be part of a team or individually. Congrats on your success and I apologize for whatever I've said that you've apparently taken to heart. I gotta get off and make Dinner and do some other shit, but I'll check back later.

As far as I understand it, Deion took the job to help build a HBU program, then there was some issue over his salaries(a dispute about his compensation as it was tied to some incentives). That was why he left for Colorado...or partially why. But coaches from revenue generating sports from the power 5 use interest from other schools to get pay bumps fairly regularly. Coaches have a good year or two and they get massive deals at a lot of the Power5. This leads to some absolutely terrible decisions by Athletic Departments. https://www.mlive.com/spartans/2021/11/mel-tuckers-massive-contract-extension-is-fully-guaranteed-with-buyout-unchanged.html It doesn't seem real common in Wrestling though. I can't recall a situation in which a coach has gone and visited another program offering him an extension just to use it as leverage...

I really thought with all the talent in Cali, and the way he was able to recruit at Cornell, he'd have a lot of success there. Built a powerhouse out West at @Formally140stated. There's so much talent out there and relatively few programs. I really hope this doesn't end up being the death knell for Stanford...and it's tough to imagine OU dropping their program. It's surprising to hear that it was even being talked about.

I think he'd end up a pretty big upgrade over Teske long term. Maybe not a huge upgrade for 2023-24, but he had 6 losses(4 to RBY/Fix) and took 5th as a Freshmen.

I got a haircut once and the women giving me the cut put plastic gloves on when she saw my ears and she commented on them. I don't remember the exact conversation, but she asked me if I was a Wrestler and I said, "yup, the ears give it away," and...she goes on to tell me that they're caused by a fungus and some type of skin disease causes them. So I explained to her how you ACTUALLY get cauliflower ear...it's from the cartilage getting kinda broken down and...well-everyone here knows the truth. She comes back and CONTINUES to argue with me saying her Husband Wrestled, and that's why he quit! So I asked how long and she says he wrestled His Freshmen year. I remember making some comment like, "well, your Husband's wrong, I've wrestled for 15 year(or whatever it was at that point) and it's not a skin disease or a fungus. And then just sat there as she was huffy and I was a little annoyed. She also didn't believe me when I said MOST Wrestlers(this was College by this point) had cauliflower. I suspect she confused what her husband had told her...

Ok...well...that's not me, and I suspect it's not most Wrestlers. That sounds like participation trophy type stuff. I can enjoy a practice in which I get my ass kicked, but I've never had fun losing a match. I mean...as I said, I can do so while playing Football. I could have fun in a game we loss. But when it's just me on the Mat, I never had fun losing. At the end of a National Tournament, I could feel a sense of accomplishment without having won, and that could be rewarding.

It'd be good for fundraising, it'd bring a TON of attention to the sport. The problem is, are you recruiting young, male athletes...to Wrestle for a Women? I'm not trying to be sexist, just realistic. They can know more than anyone...but it's asking a lot. I think it's the same with Becky Hamon in the NBA or I can't think of a Female coach in the NFL. Get Dake and Taylor to go be her assistants for 200K a year with some of the money they raised and you might have some success out of the gate, but that's always going to be a problem you'll face as Women try to break into Men's sports as coaches. And if this was on Twitter, people would play dumb and ask why it's fine for Male Coaches to coach women's team like this is an issue you can argue away!