scourge165

Did he pull him off the mat WHILE he was wrestling? What happened here. That seems pretty wild...kinda the definition of what we were talking about with "toxic parents," but I don't know the extent of the details.

Ok...Nickal always had the "dawg" in him. That seems like it'd be inferring one was tougher coming out vs the other. And yes, that brilliant "joke" about needing coach Cal more than Cael! Because they're almost spelled the same! Or maybe Taylor just needed to add weight to he wasn't losing to one of the most decorated American's and another world Champ in Dake...either way. Nickal's best win? And his losses were MUCH worse. Nate Jenkins? A loss to the 12 seed he avenged 4-3. Never said it was "unreasonable." I said I disagreed. And then you wondered why and now you're getting a bit sensitive about all of it. Kinda seems like you're the one who's suggesting it's "unreasonable" to go with Taylor.

I could argue for all 4...pretty much any order. Ruth made it look so easy...effortless. Like he wasn't even trying almost. They'd all struggle to score on Brooks. I don't think Brooks is going to fail to get recognition. He's going to win 4 in 4 potentially and what seed was he as a Freshmen? A True Freshmen when he had one loss to Venz that he avenged at the B1Gs? A Bronze Medalist in his bracket...the only thing that might take some shine off Brooks 4th is Starocci's 4th and then that random loss to Coleman, but you're still talking about a kid on the precipice of being a 4X Champ. I think I'd still put DT right in that group with Brooks though. I don't think it's as simple as ranking them in groups among 3X, 4X or a 2X champ.

My bad. Lost to Martin in the finals while Ruth got beaten by the kid from Stanford and Wrestled all the way back to 3rd. That was imperssive. Agreed. How about Starocci/Brooks vs Nickal/Ruth?

Yeah, I don't know why this got the Jimmy Cinnabon treatment. It is a better comp. Nickal took a 3rd at '74 then spent 2 years at '84. Taylor took a 2nd at '57 and then wrestled '65. Ruth wrestled two years at '74 and two at '84.

I think Taylor would win this weight. Not as easily as he won it in '12 obviously. 4 pins and a tech. But I don't think O'Toole could scramble with him. Hamiti is kinda like Taylor just...well, a lesser version at this point. I think he's tech Khcarchla to be honest. People forget, that weight had guys like Evans or Kokesh who were similar in style to Kharchla...IMO, but better. Carr and O'Toole...obviously the best matchup's, but I think Taylor did what they did, just better. I did think Taylor should have gone up and tried to add some weight, but it was always kinda hard to argue with the results. I would have said 174, I never would have guessed he'd have gotten as big as he did.

Because you infer that Nickal was the better Wrestler coming out of High School and...as I've been told, this is a forum and when you disagree with someone, you point that out; I disagree. This is why I quoted you. I did mis-read what you said about Cael vs Cal, but it's also a different discussion. That's post-college. I'd say the 2 Hodge Awards, 1 loss in the finals to Jenkins and then vs Dake.

What are you talking about? Why are your points always so vague and incomplete? "One size fits all philosophies are silly." No, they're not. You don't need a 6 year old Wrestling all over the Country and you don't need to freak out over his Wrestling. That size does "fit all." "Should we celebrate average or greatness?" Yeah, you were definitely that Dad going nuts in the corner of kids tournaments living vicariously through your kids. And that usually leads to VERY bad outcomes. Either kids quitting Wrestling...or, even worse, Wrestling Greco... What Askren preaches is absolutely the right way to do it. What he practices...doesn't always match. That's the extent I'm going to keep talking about him.

LOL...yes...playing Multiple sports in High School stopped in 1981. Koy Hopke definitely doesn't play multiple sports. Ben Keuter definitely...single sport guy. Edit-And by the way, I did that about 15 years ago and...had a good amount of success vs say a...Chris Phillips who was an absolute hammer but was burned out by the time he got to HS and didn't want to Wrestle. Or COUNTLESS others who've had varied level of success without Wrestling 300 days a year and playing one sport. How many NFL players have played multiple sports or College HWTs? The idea that you think it's so fantastical tells me you're also probably a little part of the problem. Also, isn't it "la la land?" Or did you actually mean La la lane?

Taylor was the better Wrestler coming out. Yeah, he may have needed Cael more than Cael needed him to win a World and Olympic Titles...or maybe he was just stuck at a weight with the most dominant Wrestler at that time and had to add 20 pounds of good weight to go up. You're acting like Taylor WASN'T a 4X Champ from Ohio. Best of the East, Ironman, #1 P4P wrestler...bumped up to take on Palmer in one of the best HS matches I've ever seen. Who wins? Probably Nickal just due to size, but I'll take Taylor as the better Wrestler. Taylor lost to Bubba Jenkins and then Dake. Nickal lost to Nate Jackson, Martin a couple times. Now a lot to separate them, but I think Taylor was better. 2X Hodge award winner. He LOOKED like the next Cael heading into that match undefeated and the favorite of Jenkins...but he lost. Then he gets Dake and they again gave us some of the best matches I've seen. 5-4 finals to give Dake his 4th. But Nickal was 197. So are we saying they're closer in weight and imagining how it'd go? Because obviously a 165 Taylor wouldn't beat a 197 Nickal.

It's a bit difficult to discuss this when there are two wildly different set of standards. You're arguing your own beliefs. And I don't even disagree. I'd say 6th grade is about the perfect age to start to get more serious. That is NOT however the comment I was replying to; So when the claim is made that he waits until HS...or that he doesn't suffer the toxic parents, it's just not true. And again, this idea that he's got this strict standard with parents who are too intense, it reminds me of the old saying in the NFL. "Be who you can afford to be." Charlie Millard's parents can afford to be a lot more obnoxious because...he's a stud and it helps the AWA brand(to be clear, I picked parents who specifically weren't over the top to make my point).

Ok, so you're of the belief that he doesn't push the kids to start wrestling National Tournaments or to focus on Wrestling until their in HS? There's an inconsistency. There's a whole other inconsistency when it comes to the parents. I kinda thought given the fact that he had one of those parents, he be more consistent, but if there's a kid he can get ahold of and slap an AWA next to their name, if they're good enough, the parents behavior doesn't change much. And if those "more serious" kids are in 5th or 6th grade? You just used HS as your starting point. He very clearly starts well before then...and what he really does is he takes the best kids, the kids already doing it and then will kinda take over there. Getting right down to it, it's Messenbrink who discourages pushing kids in Elementary or Middle School from overtraining and then trains the hell outta them when they get to HS. Did it at a parent, as a coach and it's why I think he's really the..."secret sauce" in the whole AWA philosophy. Messenbrink practices what he preaches. In fact, there was one kid who wasn't allowed at open mat and at some of the club practices because they were...a bit too competitive and maybe got a bit too upset when they ended up on the short end of the stick. That kid was actually not allowed to finish last year(2021-2022) at the open Gyms. John Messenbrink had a very close connection to him. This is part of the reason I think Mitchell Messenbrink is going to be a contender as soon as next year(wherever he ends up). He's so hypercompetitive, he's a smart kid, a mature kid and I think his Dad has helped reign him in.

Right...and I'm in no way changing my statement that he's wildly inconsistent on this part. I'm pretty sure the way I'm looking at it is complete, but I'd need something more than a 'nuh-uh,' to be persuaded as I'm not even sure what point you're making.

Faison seems like a fairly good bet doesn't he? Trombley...only 2 automatic bids and what, 4 at large? He'll have to have a big tournament.

Kids Wrestling has gotten genuinely disturbing. These parents sit around the mats and scream like they're at dog fights. And you cannot get to the Mat without fighting your way through like it's a rave. I took my Nephew to a kids tournament, 800 kids in a gym that shouldn't have had more than 400. Took 10 hours to Wrestle 3 matches. You put the kids level of experience on there. He'd only wrestled maybe 5-6 tournaments. He'd been going to a club for parts of two years. I put him as a 2 out of 3. 1=Beginner, 2=some experience, 3=High level. That was new to me. He won the tournament, but he didn't look like a young Kolat or anything. Got taken down each time, reversals, regular kids Wrestling. He was confronted by this fat bald guy as we were waiting to leave(getting his bracket and medal). The guy was yelling at HIM for the group they put him in with. To be honest, I wasn't even sure if he beat his kid when they were Wrestling because I wasn't really keeping score. Well, he won. I guess 11-8 or something. Who gives a shit really? I've never seen a former Wrestler out there getting super worked up about a kids tournament, ESPECIALLY at that age. That's some toxic shit no matter what your definition of toxic is. You constantly see kids crying as the parents are in the corners screaming. The Mom's are just as bad as the Dad's. It's insane. I don't recall my Dad EVER saying anything to me before a match other than "be ready," and "make sure your shoes are tied." It kinda became a joke as he continued through College. But I don't think I could have taken it...having one of those Dad's who lived through you. From what I can tell, things have gotten exponentially worse in the past 10-15 years since I was in Youth tournaments. He got nervous and he got into the matches, but he never tried coaching me unless I asked and he was just...quiet in the tournament. I assume this is what people are talking about when they talk about toxic. Just how out of control some parents get, the screaming, the yelling, yelling at kids. The kids throwing fits when they lost and nothing. Parents need to just...be better. You wonder why you have fewer officials or why you see parents fighting with kids.

There is. Because he had the money to put up "Schools," in area's that were hurting for Club Wrestling and he has former D1 Wrestlers coaching at those schools. Max Askren, Josh Wagner, Messenbrink, Pell... Wisconsin's big problem was never a lack of talent, it was developing it. Minnesota had a lot of clubs in or around the Twin Cities and the best athletes could compete. Then, guys went and had success, came back and coached. More clubs where the top athletes can train together, more D1 Wrestlers, more Quality coaches. But their talent was located where the highest concentration of Wrestlers were(makes sense). That wasn't really the case for Wisconsin. Nicolet or West Bend West or a lot of these HS producing elite Wrestlers, they had no programs and it was a looong ride to a decent club. I think if Ben left AWA, it would continue to churn out elite Wrestlers. You'll also notice his clubs are in areas where there is a lot of money. It's not cheap, but...you're getting Max Askren or Nick Becker will come out and do some clubs. Again, the others I mentioned. Wisconsin was more spread out. AWA has certainly filled that need with the different locations. It also helps having College Coaches willing to do some of the camps. So instead of there being clubs near Kaukauna and then Rapids and then up by the Crass Brothers(which all still exist) there are 6 more across the Southern part of the State.

Yeah, but this is not real consistent on his behalf. I whole heartedly agree with this ideology. I think you should play multiple sports...at least as a kid. I played on a travel baseball team that played 70 games a season and was lucky to have a coach who'd let me miss some games for Fargo or Northern Plains and I could still get to some off-season practices around Baseball. And then Wrestling was fresh. It wasn't just going from the season into Freestyle and Greco and just continually grinding. And I'd also fit a tournament or two in-between Baseball and Football. Wasn't until I got older I realized how expensive this was and how lucky I was...and also probably not absolutely necessary, but the point is, I enjoyed all of them and it kept me pretty busy. Hell, I even went out for Tennis as a Jr and Sr(initially just to serve a sports suspension, but then I actually liked it). I started Wrestling at 4-5 years old, but never had that Dad who put pressure on me. Tournaments were kinda just, "hey, you wanna Wrestle this weekend?" This is an area in which I respect Askren's outward ideology, but...again, it doesn't really fit with his coaching style for his top kids. When he gets an real stud, he'll push that kid to focus on Wrestling and push them away from other sports.

I think if he'd have gotten the job, UW would probably be competing with Iowa right now. But he'd end up feuding with the University or...something. Askren and Messenbrink are both College caliber coaches(though, if he was the HC, you'd want one of them to run AWA and I think Messenbrink is the true genius behind that).

What the hell? I swore I replied to this. Anyway, no, I'm talking about Paniro Johnson at 141. How big of an upset would it be if he dropped to 141 and won it there? Huh? No, obviously I screwed up. Which is bad given what the kid has done this year. Taking it to Gomez pretty good, losing a SV 3-1 match to Yianni. He's got some other good wins and some tough, close losses. I'll go with Jack there. That NC State team is looking good. Next year moreso than this year is going to be their best year with that whole lineup back, but Jack at 41, Scott at 57 and Trumble at 97 could all cause some havoc. I'd take Scott out due to the drubbing he took at the hands of Andonian, but that feels a lot like Vito-Glory last year. Andonian just blitzed him with the throw to and 6 right out of the gate, then the cradle. If Andonian can get that gas tank all the way back, he's gonna be a real threat at '57. Monster on top, obviously can hit he big moves, but he's also so slick. He hit a TD over Scott where it was like a schuck from an overhook. But I don't think that qualifies as an upset. Also, Hart might be the type of guy who can make a run. He's tough on top. He's just not real explosive and he doesn't seem like he's got that shot that he can score with in the 3rd or OT vs the better Wrestlers. So his matches would have to follow a similar theme. Winning with RT and defense and that usually bites you in the ass at some point. Anyway, my bad. I'll go with

Jimmy Johns...man, I love that shit. My buddy opened one and wanted me to go in on it with him. Maybe I should have...he's done great and I'd have made my money back just by eating that #4 I think? #8? Whatever has the salami, ham and whatever else. And that bread is SO good!

They can wrestle on the boys team during the regular season though, correct? I just watched a state finals that had it at the same time as the boys for the first time ever. I disliked it. Went from 3 mats to 6 and it was even tougher to keep track of either. I was also at a State Tourney with just the One match and 1 Division. That was much more engaging. I don't think there's anything to be done, but a better system. They didn't have a big board with the matchups as they'd had in the past. No clue why that was. And they didn't announce things like National Rankins(also done in the past). So fix those things, and not sure what else you can do. Not fair to have the girls Wrestle two weeks later in front of 2000 people. Girls/Women's wrestling is evolving and improving so quickly, I think they've earned their place. I just don't like trying to watch 6 State title matches at once.

I lost my pool last year with ~55 people in it because I took Vito. I'm not a quicker learner, so I may go back to that well and hope someone dug it a bit deeper. That Glory-Vito match in the Semi's was one of the weirder ones I've seen. I thought...for a moment, Vito was the one who'd come out on top in that scramble and was scoring points. But Glory scored there, and then it was over. My friends to an upset bracket for March Madness. I don't know how they score it, but it's differently. You can still take a 1 seed, but you get fewer points. If you win, the fewer people who chose that school, the more points they get...and a whole lot of other shit. If I was making a pool based on that critera; My all upset team; 125-Glory 133-Vito (I'd bet the money would be about 55-35-10 RBY, Fix and Vito, so upset). 141-Johnson(I want to go with Alirez, but...tough to call him an upset when he's a likely 2 seed and undefeated...but the quality of wins isn't the best). Bartlett is the better bet, but Johnson is more than capable of a big tourney and winning the title. 149-Gomez 157-Haines(again, picked him last year, so can't change my flip now). 165-Hamiti-Nobody in the top 4 would shock. Monday would be a slight surprise, but given how deep this weight class is, but also top heavy, Hamiti would be a pretty big surprise). 174-Lewis I can't see Labriola beating both, so if not Starocci, it's gotta be Lewis. Not quite Owings vs Gable, but unexpected. 184-Keckhiesen 197-Trumble...but I could see 15 different guys make a run to the finals. HWT-Kerkvliet Not much of an upset as he's my favorite anyway but there's less margin for error in this weight. I think this is a 3-horse race and Parris is the favorite, so...there's that.

No...actually, I wasn't a Badger. I went to a bordering program (that's not Iowa). I did live in Wisconsin growing up(not in HS) and live there now. I also had family who went there, who Wrestled there. I have a great deal of respect for Jon Reader as a coach. I think Bono is a good guy, but as I said, he's intense, but seems to me like he's the type of guy you want in your corner, both figuratively and literally. Askren is an incredible Wrestler and 2nd to none at self promotion. Look no further than him talking a kid barely cracking 200 LBs into going up to HWT(which...is NOT an easy weight in Wisconsin this year with a defending State Champ and Runner up from 220 and HWT respectively). And Sinclair going to 220 despite being ~5'8 so the top AWA guys don't wrestle each other and you have favorites at maybe 8 straight weights. But he's quick to make comments about how Wrestlers don't improve under Bono each loss. Which...if people will recall, someone said O'Toole isn't improving at Missouri after the Carr loss. He clearly is. It was more about the absurdity of Askren's comments. Ben Askren wants Nick Becker to be the Badgers HC(if it's not him). Now...Becker would make one helluva D1 HC. I really believe that. I think he could have won NCs in D1(He was undefeated his final 3 years, wrestled a little bit on the Sr circuit losing a close match to Mark Hall on criteria). And he gets the Askren stamp of approval. And he DOESN'T have anywhere near that same ego. The question is, if you're UW, how much are you willing to placate one Wrestler? Does he just get to call all the shots? And what if he and Becker get into it in the future? Square One...

Same here. We had a smaller one about the best Freestyle Wrestler of all-time. I've got Sadulaev #1, mspart(and a lot of others) still have Saitiev...or Medved. Hell, I even enjoy the Jordan-LeBron debate. I know we're supposed to hate Basketball, but...what can I say, I'm still a fan.

Right. There's WAAAY too much context needed. Lets say...hypothetically, Taylor turns it around and catches Dake in a cradle and wins a 1 point match. Does Dake no longer belong in the convo? In fact, I think Lincoln McCllarvy belongs in the conversation. I enjoy these debates(in any sport) as long as it doesn't turn into bullshit about knocking another Wrestler down rather than advocating for one Wrestler. For example, Stieber. I hear a lot of people try Oliver had the TD. He didn't. It was a point of emphasis that year, that EXACT position. Had to get your head out and/or be above the ankles. It'd be a TD now, argue it was a bad rule, but it was something the refs covered that year repeatedly(which is why you see a pretty subdued John Smith given the situation).