Starocci's Mindset

[Husker_Du]

what that match (Angelo vs CStarr) told/reminded me is that with enough bias, even knowledgable fans will color a 'close match' as an 'almost lost'.

there's a sea of difference. and you know it. 

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

No one serious takes 5 seriously.

kind of kidding here

but there will be a lot of unserious psu fans bragging about 5 

[Husker_Du]

anyone want to explain to me how 5 isn't better than 4?

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

anyone want to explain to me how 5 isn't better than 4?

Because you cannot know what any other four timer would do in year five. Presumably someone who has never lost a title would not lose the fifth bite at the apple. Of course, we are assuming the same for Starocci here, so why not the others?

[Husker_Du]

we don't have to assume for Starocci. he either will or he won't.

are you trying to tell me the four-timers aren't more impressive (or notable or, in your words 'serious') as the 3xers when they were limited to 3 years? 

correct me if i'm wrong but, do fans generally run around thinking those four timers aren't serious, they just had an extra year than the 3xers? 

[Wrestleknownothing]

10 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

we don't have to assume for Starocci. he either will or he won't.

are you trying to tell me the four-timers aren't more impressive (or notable or, in your words 'serious') as the 3xers when they were limited to 3 years? 

correct me if i'm wrong but, do fans generally run around thinking those four timers aren't serious, they just had an extra year than the 3xers? 

You should review my posts on 100%ers.

But I can understand why people might think the logic would not apply in the other direction. Arguably the freshman year title is the hardest to attain. I am not convinced of that while I am also not convinced it is wrong.

[dragit]

If he beats Keck for number 5 he belongs on College Mt. Rushmore for sure. 

That doesn't mean he should get a Hodge, different issue.  The Ferrari performance is exhibit number one for why he shouldn't. But it's not evidence in any way that he is vulnerable or that Ferrari could beat him once if they wrestled ten times.

[RockLobster]

20 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

we don't have to assume for Starocci. he either will or he won't.

are you trying to tell me the four-timers aren't more impressive (or notable or, in your words 'serious') as the 3xers when they were limited to 3 years? 

correct me if i'm wrong but, do fans generally run around thinking those four timers aren't serious, they just had an extra year than the 3xers? 

Huge difference.

• Only a small, select few have had the opportunity to try for 5. Sure, it's cool.
  But it's a small pond.
• In wrestling history, MOST ALL have had the opportunity to try for 4.
  This is the ocean. And I am confident some, like Cael, could have gotten 5 if given the chance.
• Some wrestlers, from the olden days, were limited to only trying for 3.
  Another small pond, but no doubt some of them could have gotten 4, maybe 5.

In terms of wrestling history, it's impossible to know what could or might have been.

What we do know is that 5 is not necessarily greater than 4, and 4 is not necessarily greater than 3. 

[Husker_Du]

5 is not greater than 4 is not greater than 3.

and yet every single comparison begins with 'how many titles did he have'

got it. 

y'all are overthinking this one. 

i'm not saying that 5 titles makes Carter Starocci 'a better wrestler than Cael.'

i'm objecting to the above post that says 'no one takes five seriously'.

it will be the first thing everyone talks about after NCAA's this year. 

and in 2065 when people look at record books it will be outstanding. 

[scourge165]

21 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

5 is not greater than 4 is not greater than 3.

and yet every single comparison begins with 'how many titles did he have'

got it. 

y'all are overthinking this one. 

i'm not saying that 5 titles makes Carter Starocci 'a better wrestler than Cael.'

i'm objecting to the above post that says 'no one takes five seriously'.

it will be the first thing everyone talks about after NCAA's this year. 

and in 2065 when people look at record books it will be outstanding. 

I'm confused why Logan Stieber, Kyle Dake, Pat Smith, Yianni...I don't see why what they've done without this year is more impressive. I think Brooks was pretty damn impressive as well as Cael(obviously). I just saw a list that had them ranked(heading into last year) 1-Cael, 2-Dake, 3-Yianni(took an L as a Sr), 4-Stieber, 5-Smith

 

If we're going after Starocci for his style...I'm not sure why Dake gets extra points. For beating Taylor? The 4 weights? He rode the piss outta guys, he wasn't overly offensive. Stieber- He was Oliver knowing the rules that year away from not being on the list. I'm too ignorant about Pat Smith's career to speak intelligently about it, so I won't(but being the first is impressive).

I'll also add, people talk about Lee Kemp with amazing reverence(well deserved) but did his style differ from Starocci? I'd guess he was more conservative than "cstall" was/is. He very easily could have been the first 4X Champ, referees decision as a Freshmen, then three titles. 

 

As it pertains to the extra year, It ain't easy to go through 6 years...as we've seen. I don't know how many Wrestlers have finished their careers worse, but it's a few. Guys who have worn down or gotten beaten up. In fact...he did that just last year. Hurt his knee and took out two former Champs in Griffin and Mekhi Lewis. And it's not impressive enough for what seems to be MOST of the board?

 

Again, I'll reiterate, I find him to be a little obnoxious at times and I always find these ranking discussions a bit reductive. Mitchell Mesenbrink won't be considered as great as ANY 4X Champ because he lost a 9-8 decision on RT to David Carr as a Freshmen? He Wrestled in a weight class that may have 2 2X Champs and was widely considered the toughest weight, it would certainly appear as though he'd on his way to an absolutely dominant career where he may not lose again...and could tech his way through it. But he's not going to be a 3X Champ.  Obviously not as Lee Kemp's never ranked ahead of those 4X Champs. How about Zain Retherford? He had a 4X Champ who he beat his Freshmen year...stopping him from winning 4.

 

So yes, we've decided...collectively that 4 is greater than 3...at least going back to the days of Uetake and guys who couldn't Wrestle 4 years, but a guy winning his 5th is...'meh.' 

 

I rooted for him to come back for a 5th year because I enjoy excellence. I'm not a Penn St fan...beyond the fact that I appreciate excellence. I think winning a 5th does mean something. I don't know that every other guy who won 4 would have won a 5th. I don't know that Stieber holds of Zain another year. 

Smith won a 6-2 and a 5-3 match in the Semis and Finals his Sr year and then the next year, that was the same year Lincoln Mcllravy got beaten in a crazy match stopping his attempt to win 4. 

I also know aside from the two close matches, he won a 7-6 match over Tom Ryan and a 5-4 match over Scott Hovan. So no, I don't think you can just assume they'd have all won it. I don't think you have to take anything away from them for not having the chance, but you can recognize that going through the grind once more and coming out unscathed(assuming he does) over a guy who has gone 3/3/2/1 with Aaron Brooks winning the weight those 4 years, it's an accomplishment. It's NOT nothing, it does matter. 

Does anyone remember or care about those close Pat Smith matches?(asking genuinely as I don't recall and I couldn't begin to tell you what his bonus rate was). 

 

This is all such a...disingenuous way to look at these Wrestlers accomplishments, but there's a thread right now about Starocci and how he's such a staller because a SUPREMELY talented Freshmen who Wrestled on one knee and on the out of bounds line all match(which is understandable, he's facing a 4X NC as a True Freshmen and it's a big duel) didn't lose by that much?

LOL...this is all ridiculous. 

 

The "pre-emptive" keeping him off of a fictional Mt Rushmore. I'd just like to reiterate, every point I made about each Wrestler potentially losing, it's not meant to diminish them. There are 10 champs a year and we've become pretty cavalier about how hard it is to be one of them(I damn sure wasn't) and instead of using an argument to build a Wrestler UP...like Kyle Dake winning it at 4 different weights and being such a dominant defensive Wrestler and so great on top or Aaron Brooks insane defense and dominance in the underhook...or Cael, which is self-explanatory, it sounds like a Twitter bitshing about LeBron or Jordan. Yeah, I got my opinion, but you're not convincing me by trying to take AWAY from the greatness of any of them. 

 

 

 

How's that for overthinking it? Just Mark Twain stream of consciousness...sans the coherence, wit or...talent of Twain, but...at least one similarity!

 

 

[Husker_Du]

i mean, Carter has less losses than Dake by half. 

He's going for his fourth straight undefeated season. Logan Stieber has two.

His win streak is second longest among 4xers to Cael. 

[MPhillips]

  He's a four timer like the others but gets a bonus year.  When he wins his fifth he'll be at the top of the list. There really isn't any other way for it to go. Folks that just don't like him will never get past that and I believe it could take some hate off Stieber...

[scourge165]

30 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

  He's a four timer like the others but gets a bonus year.  When he wins his fifth he'll be at the top of the list. There really isn't any other way for it to go. Folks that just don't like him will never get past that and I believe it could take some hate off Stieber...

He doesn't deserve any hate. The hate he gets is from that Oliver match and I know that year at the D1, in the coaches meeting, they talked about that EXACT position and how you had to get your head out for it to be two. Stieber kept it buried and won. 

So he lost as a Freshmen, then one match to Zain. I think it's insane any of these 4X Champs get any hate. 

[MPhillips]

7 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I think it's insane any of these 4X Champs get any hate. 

Indeed...

[RawDog]

2 hours ago, scourge165 said:

He doesn't deserve any hate. The hate he gets is from that Oliver match and I know that year at the D1, in the coaches meeting, they talked about that EXACT position and how you had to get your head out for it to be two. Stieber kept it buried and won. 

So he lost as a Freshmen, then one match to Zain. I think it's insane any of these 4X Champs get any hate. 

I don't know man, Steiber also benefited from a questionable call in the Ramos final. Steiber is definitely the sketchiest 4x champ.

5 is absolutely greater than 4 though.  Hard to stay that focused that long. You have stay healthy (stopped Spencer) stay out of trouble (AJ). Plus everyone has another year to scout you and try to find a way to beat you.

[Gene Mills Fan]

Carter is an awesome wrestler! styles only determine a popularity contest. Winning % has a numerical factor that speaks for itself. there is quite a bit of CSDS in the population.

Edited 7 hours ago by Gene Mills Fan

[Wrestleknownothing]

For me 5 titles would be the answer to a trivia question rather than something that separates Starocci from the other four-timers. It is undeniably difficult to win a fifth title (or any title), but it was impossible for the other four-timers because it was not possible.

That Starocci is given an opportunity that they were not, does not elevate him above them. Similarly, three-timers in the no-freshman era are not definitionally below four-timers. We can argue whether any of them would have won as freshman, but they were never given the opportunity.

A similar situation already exists. "Who is the only six time NCAA wrestling champion?" is a fun trivia question.

[Mr. PeanutButter]

17 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Just say you hate him for being an arrogant braggart and quit pretending he was the problem in the match with Ferrari. Try being honest with yourself.

Damn bro. You didn't have to peer into my soul like that. 

[dragit]

5 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

A similar situation already exists. "Who is the only six time NCAA wrestling champion?" is a fun trivia question.

Now THAT one can't happen again thanks to the NCAA.

Haselrig was another football player found to have CTE after dying young.