Has this season been a downer so far?

[Hammerlock3]

4 minutes ago, The Kid said:

What's the big deal with Steveson?

He came back after an ill advised wwe career.  Yeah, he gave thr nfl a go too.

Now he's back in his apparent 6th season at junior varsity. 

That's why no one cares.  It's absurd.

 

you give the impression of someone who read one sentence fragment of a post and responded. 

[BAC]

I agree it's been a down start to the year.  The main reasons:

1.  Big-time early-season tournaments are way down.  After CKLV, there's basically nothing.  The formerly great tournaments have been reduced to JV competitions.  PSU was a whisker from winning the Scuffle with three frosh redshirts and a backup.  

2.  The number of competitions are down overall.  Compared to 10 years ago, most guys have about 5-7 fewer total competitions. Schools are cutting back, and early-season is taking the biggest hit. 

3.  More record-padding.  Many of the bigger programs are seeking out the lesser programs for non-league duals, the result of which is fewer competitive duals (to go with fewer competitive tournaments). There's exceptions, but overall, most non-league duals are thrashings.

4.  More allowing top wrestlers to skip out on duals.  Missou's coach has spoken about how much more leverage the wrestlers have these days.  Some of it's a cultural shift, and some of it's just a recognition of how much more clout the big-name wrestlers have in the age of the portal and NIL.   Coaches used to run a tight ship, expecting guys to make all the big duals, but now if they want to stay home for a longer Xmas break, there really isn't much the coaches can do, or the wrestler may seek out friendlier skies. This also is an underlying cause of #s 1-3.

5.  The broken qualification system.  Once you're a lock (or on track to be a lock) for an automatic berth, there's really no incentive to do anything else.  No need for more comps, and no need to take unnecessary risks.  This is an underlying cause of #s 1-4.

6.  All that matters is March.  National duals have been dead for a while, and efforts to have a national dual meet championship or to make duals count to March point totals are so far in the rear view mirror, that even the former proponents of dual meets have stopped caring.  As a result, apart from mandatory league duals and tournament, the rest of the season is just an annoyance -- a chance to get hurt, and not much else. Also a cause of #s 1-4.  

[wrestle87]

16 minutes ago, BAC said:

I agree it's been a down start to the year.  The main reasons:

1.  Big-time early-season tournaments are way down.  After CKLV, there's basically nothing.  The formerly great tournaments have been reduced to JV competitions.  PSU was a whisker from winning the Scuffle with three frosh redshirts and a backup.  

2.  The number of competitions are down overall.  Compared to 10 years ago, most guys have about 5-7 fewer total competitions. Schools are cutting back, and early-season is taking the biggest hit. 

3.  More record-padding.  Many of the bigger programs are seeking out the lesser programs for non-league duals, the result of which is fewer competitive duals (to go with fewer competitive tournaments). There's exceptions, but overall, most non-league duals are thrashings.

4.  More allowing top wrestlers to skip out on duals.  Missou's coach has spoken about how much more leverage the wrestlers have these days.  Some of it's a cultural shift, and some of it's just a recognition of how much more clout the big-name wrestlers have in the age of the portal and NIL.   Coaches used to run a tight ship, expecting guys to make all the big duals, but now if they want to stay home for a longer Xmas break, there really isn't much the coaches can do, or the wrestler may seek out friendlier skies. This also is an underlying cause of #s 1-3.

5.  The broken qualification system.  Once you're a lock (or on track to be a lock) for an automatic berth, there's really no incentive to do anything else.  No need for more comps, and no need to take unnecessary risks.  This is an underlying cause of #s 1-4.

6.  All that matters is March.  National duals have been dead for a while, and efforts to have a national dual meet championship or to make duals count to March point totals are so far in the rear view mirror, that even the former proponents of dual meets have stopped caring.  As a result, apart from mandatory league duals and tournament, the rest of the season is just an annoyance -- a chance to get hurt, and not much else. Also a cause of #s 1-4.  

This makes a ton of sense.  And sounds like this is just the logical result of injecting NIL into the competitive value structure that the sport of wrestling has had from the dawn of time.

In wrestling, Dan Marino is a 4x qualifier who could've been something but never was. 

[Paul158]

4 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I'm feeling the same way. The season hasn't been bad thus far, but I'm just less excited about it. My interest in college sports in general has been fading a bit. It feels like the transfer portal, NIL, pay to play settlement, realignment, etc. have taken a lot out of the parity and tradition that used to make D1 sports fun.

Well said. The transfer portal is strange. Almost every decent wrestler is in the transfer portal or being lured there by NIL money. You don't have to develop wrestlers anymore just go shopping in the transfer portal. Just like that you have 4 or 5 studs.

[ionel]

20 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Well said. The transfer portal is strange. Almost every decent wrestler is in the transfer portal or being lured there by NIL money. You don't have to develop wrestlers anymore just go shopping in the transfer portal. Just like that you have 4 or 5 studs.

ahh ... good luck shoppn' and luring a Penn St wrestler.  

[jackwebster]

10 hours ago, Paul158 said:

You don't have to develop wrestlers anymore just go shopping in the transfer portal.

I guess I'll be that 'member when guy: wrestlers today arrive on campus with years of D1-level training via the elite clubs, RTCs, and really loose interpretations of NCAA rules regarding whether or not rostered guys can roll with high schoolers. > a decade ago in my state (VA), most HS coaches were livid when they learned that Xtiansburg kids under Dresser and Weber could routinely go with the VT kids. Today, this stuff is normal for elite kids 

Point is that developing competitive D1 athletes is starting earlier. College staffs have adapted.

Edited Monday at 01:06 PM by jackwebster

[Wrestleknownothing]

OK, you bunch of Debbie Downers, this Friday the schedule really begins. Conference duals get under way in earnest.

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

OK, you bunch of Debbie Downers, this Friday the schedule really begins. Conference duals get under way in earnest.

And who are these great matchups that'll wet our appetites?

 

[Gene Mills Fan]

College wrestling is never a downer!!!

[1032004]

15 hours ago, BAC said:

I agree it's been a down start to the year.  The main reasons:

1.  Big-time early-season tournaments are way down.  After CKLV, there's basically nothing.  The formerly great tournaments have been reduced to JV competitions.  PSU was a whisker from winning the Scuffle with three frosh redshirts and a backup.  

2.  The number of competitions are down overall.  Compared to 10 years ago, most guys have about 5-7 fewer total competitions. Schools are cutting back, and early-season is taking the biggest hit. 

3.  More record-padding.  Many of the bigger programs are seeking out the lesser programs for non-league duals, the result of which is fewer competitive duals (to go with fewer competitive tournaments). There's exceptions, but overall, most non-league duals are thrashings.

4.  More allowing top wrestlers to skip out on duals.  Missou's coach has spoken about how much more leverage the wrestlers have these days.  Some of it's a cultural shift, and some of it's just a recognition of how much more clout the big-name wrestlers have in the age of the portal and NIL.   Coaches used to run a tight ship, expecting guys to make all the big duals, but now if they want to stay home for a longer Xmas break, there really isn't much the coaches can do, or the wrestler may seek out friendlier skies. This also is an underlying cause of #s 1-3.

5.  The broken qualification system.  Once you're a lock (or on track to be a lock) for an automatic berth, there's really no incentive to do anything else.  No need for more comps, and no need to take unnecessary risks.  This is an underlying cause of #s 1-4.

6.  All that matters is March.  National duals have been dead for a while, and efforts to have a national dual meet championship or to make duals count to March point totals are so far in the rear view mirror, that even the former proponents of dual meets have stopped caring.  As a result, apart from mandatory league duals and tournament, the rest of the season is just an annoyance -- a chance to get hurt, and not much else. Also a cause of #s 1-4.  

1.  Yes down vs historical, but this year’s Midlands/Scuffle/Salute were pretty similar to the last couple years IMO.  IIRC (could be wrong) PSU did not send anyone to the Scuffle last year so the fact that they did this year was a positive IMO

2, 3, 5 & 6. True but as above, is this any different than the last few years?  If anything within the aforementioned tournaments and CKLV there’s probably been less MFF’s since they changed the rule making the first one a loss.

4. Can you share what comments from Smith you’re referencing?  If he said that I would guess that has more relevance to redshirt decisions.  My bet would be that about 99% of “ducks” are the coach’s decision and not the wrestlers’

What have even been the biggest ducks so far?  Maybe Arnold/Ferrari and that was an intrasquad match.  We got the matchup everyone wanted in Haines/O’Toole, and thanks to Rokfin sucking everyone was able to watch it for free.

I’m with @Wrestleknownothing, the season doesn’t really start until the conference dual season.   If that is a dud  then maybe I’ll get on board with this OP.

Edited Monday at 04:41 PM by 1032004

[ionel]

24 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I’m with @Wrestleknownothing, the season doesn’t really start until the conference dual season.   If that is a dud  then maybe I’ll get on board with this OP.

conference duals already started. 

[BAC]

18 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

1.  Yes down vs historical, but this year’s Midlands/Scuffle/Salute were pretty similar to the last couple years IMO.  IIRC (could be wrong) PSU did not send anyone to the Scuffle last year so the fact that they did this year was a positive IMO

2, 3, 5 & 6. True but as above, is this any different than the last few years?  If anything within the aforementioned tournaments and CKLV there’s probably been less MFF’s since they changed the rule making the first one a loss.

4. Can you share what comments from Smith you’re referencing?  If he said that I would guess that has more relevance to redshirt decisions.  My bet would be that about 99% of “ducks” are the coach’s decision and not the wrestlers’

What have even been the biggest ducks so far?  Maybe Arnold/Ferrari and that was an intrasquad match.  We got the matchup everyone wanted in Haines/O’Toole, and thanks to Rokfin sucking everyone was able to watch it for free.

I’m with @Wrestleknownothing, the season doesn’t really start until the conference dual season.   If that is a dud  then maybe I’ll get on board with this OP.

I don't really disagree with much of what you said.  My comments were more directed toward the long game, i.e. the trend lines over the last 5-7 years.  It's sort of like global warming:  I don't think the year-to-year difference is very significant, but over time it's pronounced.

To that point, the Smith comments I had in mind were actually from last season.  A Flo interview after an event with a lot of no-shows; I don't recall which one.  He was speaking generally to the shortened season and athletes having more clout to opt out of they wanted a longer vacation, or if they want to give a 95%-healed injury that last 5% of rest, etc.  Witness, for example, the Missou-Cornell dual a couple days ago: how many starters were missing?  Its not "ducking" in the traditional sense, its that holiday lineups and non-league lineups are, on the whole, more depleted than they were a decade ago or even 5 years ago.

There's exceptions, yes. We got O'Toole v Haines, the UNI-Nebraska dual was loaded, CKLV was great. But the cumulative effect of duals having no meaning, NIL, the portal, cultural shifts, and shortsighted AQ criteria, is to slouch the sport into fewer competitions with fewer good matchups.

[Paul158]

16 hours ago, ionel said:

ahh ... good luck shoppn' and luring a Penn St wrestler.  

I forgot to say you will have open up a huge wallet to get the 4 or 5 studs. Penn State's wallet is massive. In addition, they have the best coach and coaching staff in the history of NCAA wrestling. You might get some one of the studs is sitting on the bench but that is about it.

[Wrestleknownothing]

16 minutes ago, BAC said:

Witness, for example, the Missou-Cornell dual a couple days ago: how many starters were missing?  Its not "ducking" in the traditional sense, its that holiday lineups and non-league lineups are, on the whole, more depleted than they were a decade ago or even 5 years ago.

 

If you change the question to "how many non-injured starters were missing?" I think the answer is one.

For Cornell:

• Not 100% sure about Diakomihalis, but he hasn't wrestled since November
• It looks like Ferrara is the new starter after Ungar got the early look
• Dellagatta is took two forfeits without wrestling at the Bobby Kaufman Open the day before the dual, so not sure what is happening there.
• The only presumptive starter that did not go was Fernandez.

For Missouri:

• Looks like Seltzer is the new starter after Gioffre got the early look. Seltzer has wrestled the last 4 duals while Gioffre was sent to the Soldier Salute.
• Steed was injured at the Journeymen
• O'Toole is out for the month due to injury as announced by Smith.

[1032004]

3 hours ago, BAC said:

I don't really disagree with much of what you said.  My comments were more directed toward the long game, i.e. the trend lines over the last 5-7 years.  It's sort of like global warming:  I don't think the year-to-year difference is very significant, but over time it's pronounced.

To that point, the Smith comments I had in mind were actually from last season.  A Flo interview after an event with a lot of no-shows; I don't recall which one.  He was speaking generally to the shortened season and athletes having more clout to opt out of they wanted a longer vacation, or if they want to give a 95%-healed injury that last 5% of rest, etc.  Witness, for example, the Missou-Cornell dual a couple days ago: how many starters were missing?  Its not "ducking" in the traditional sense, its that holiday lineups and non-league lineups are, on the whole, more depleted than they were a decade ago or even 5 years ago.

There's exceptions, yes. We got O'Toole v Haines, the UNI-Nebraska dual was loaded, CKLV was great. But the cumulative effect of duals having no meaning, NIL, the portal, cultural shifts, and shortsighted AQ criteria, is to slouch the sport into fewer competitions with fewer good matchups.

One potential upside for this topic & NIL is that the people paying the money probably want to see the guys they’re paying for more than in just the postseason.  For example I believe Steveson said he’ll be at every dual or something.

[Caveira]

20 hours ago, BAC said:

3.  More record-padding.  Many of the bigger programs are seeking out the lesser programs for non-league duals, the result of which is fewer competitive duals (to go with fewer competitive tournaments). There's exceptions, but overall, most non-league duals are thrashings.

I don’t recall which poster(s) but I had an argument with the psu faithful about this………. Early this season.  Their position was that the tomato cans psu has scheduled in the early season are both good for the fans and the sport.       
 

I may have included a joke that the same guy scheduling the tomato cans for Bo nikal made their non conference schedule.   

[BruceyB]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

I don’t recall which poster(s) but I had an argument with the psu faithful about this………. Early this season.  Their position was that the tomato cans psu has scheduled in the early season are both good for the fans and the sport.       
 

I may have included a joke that the same guy scheduling the tomato cans for Bo nikal made their non conference schedule.   

My only question is whether or not it benefits the smaller programs financially to wrestle, and especially host Penn State. I know in football the bigger schools pay the smaller schools for the matchup.. so despite losing 70-0 to Georgia, NW Georgia State make a sizeable chunk of money that helps sustain their program. If you wrestle Penn State and get a share of the streaming/B1G money, it could be good for the sport, but I don't see how watching 10 pins/techs is fun for the fans, even if you're a fan of PSU..

[1032004]

15 hours ago, BruceyB said:

My only question is whether or not it benefits the smaller programs financially to wrestle, and especially host Penn State. I know in football the bigger schools pay the smaller schools for the matchup.. so despite losing 70-0 to Georgia, NW Georgia State make a sizeable chunk of money that helps sustain their program. If you wrestle Penn State and get a share of the streaming/B1G money, it could be good for the sport, but I don't see how watching 10 pins/techs is fun for the fans, even if you're a fan of PSU..

It absolutely helps the other school financially, mostly from traveling or bandwagon PSU fans.   Maybe not a “smaller school,” but when PSU went to Oregon Stage last year the attendance was 8,500.  When they wrestled Cal Poly two weeks later it was 1,900. 

Side note Oregon State also hosted Iowa  (4,300) and Oklahoma State (2,900) this season.

[The Kid]

On 1/5/2025 at 7:50 PM, Hammerlock3 said:

you give the impression of someone who read one sentence fragment of a post and responded. 

Well, your impression is wrong.

Edited 11 hours ago by The Kid

[Gantry]

I think it's a "death by 1000 cuts" thing for me with my lower interest this year.  Everything people mentioned has factored in - PSU dominance, NIL, transfer portals, consistent lack of premium dual matchups, people never graduating via Covid and just kind of sticking around, watered down early season tournies,  lack of action after following free a little closer the last couple years, etc.  

There's no smoking gun really and I still enjoy college wrestling, but for a guy who has been to every NCAA since 2000 I'd be lying if I said I feel the same way about it now.  Maybe my change in life priorities is the biggest factor, but given the other folks with similar thoughts means there's something to it.

So yeah it's different now but I'm not 100% sure why. 

[pokemonster]

I'm definitely feeling it this year. Barely any big matchups, tough to follow, 15 different subscriptions to watch matches, tournaments are a joke, PSU dominates everyone, etc. Seems like PSU's lead to only care about March has caught on with everybody else, therefore it only makes sense to tune in then when things actually matter. 

[BruceyB]

40 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

I'm definitely feeling it this year. Barely any big matchups, tough to follow, 15 different subscriptions to watch matches, tournaments are a joke, PSU dominates everyone, etc. Seems like PSU's lead to only care about March has caught on with everybody else, therefore it only makes sense to tune in then when things actually matter. 

I think it was Ben Askren that proposed the idea of essentially two seasons; a dual season and a tourney season. Make the first half of the season dual centric.. teams compete to qualify for entry to a dual tournament, and then we watch the top teams face off for a dual title. And then, an individual based tourney schedule where athletes can jockey for seeding post the dual tournament. It doesn't really matter than UNI beats Nebraska in a dual in the first week of January if the place lower at nationals. Without an emphasis on regular season dual results, there is just no real incentive to win a dual if it could potentially cost you a seed or performance come March. Obviously easier said than done.