Soldier Salute

[headshuck]

Kueter could have been warned for stalling in second.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Anyone who saw that match have a breakdown?  Hard to imagine there was a gap in skill and more likely a huge gap in strength & size

Buchanon is pretty skilled.

But also bigger.  Sinclair had a nice drag.

 

[flyingcement]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Buchanon is pretty skilled.

But also bigger.  Sinclair had a nice drag.

 

Sinclair looks like he should be a 184

[Truzzcat]

I believe Ben said last time he was on FRL that Aedon should be a 184 he's just never cut weight. Not sure if that meant he will never cut weight or he's just not prioritizing it this year since hes red shirting. realistically I think he could crack the top 5 at 184 although there are definitely defensive issues and mental lapses at times hes given up 10+ points on 4 different occasions this season I believe.

[BruceyB]

4 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

Anyone who saw that match have a breakdown?  Hard to imagine there was a gap in skill and more likely a huge gap in strength & size

If you're referring to Sinclair and Buchanon, I gave the scoring breakdown a few posts up. But yes, it looked like a boy wrestling a man. Sinclair hit a nice drag in the opening sequence, and Buchanon was able to turn it into his own score in the exchange.. not many do that with Sinclair's drag. Buchanon really just kind of had his way.

[PortaJohn]

3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Buchanon is pretty skilled.

But also bigger.  Sinclair had a nice drag.

 

How about we agree on slightly above average skill.  This is 197 after all.  The weight where former 174 and 184 pound studs like to move up and pad their bonus point rate

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, PortaJohn said:

How about we agree on slightly above average skill.  This is 197 after all.  The weight where former 174 and 184 pound studs like to move up and pad their bonus point rate

Nick Heflin only had a ~25% bonus rate after going up to 197.

[Fadzaev2]

13 hours ago, headshuck said:

B1G+ is the Big Ten Network's subscription video streaming service. Did they ever have their own tournament management service?

I don't remember it being this bad last year overall.....to me, a big part of the problem was not being able to follow the coverage along, at least with Track....Track was terrible this time.  It was hard to follow along that's for sure.  Fortunately, the competition at both the Midlands and SS wasn't that great, so I just "bagged it".  It better get better from here on out.

[PortaJohn]

9 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Nick Heflin only had a ~25% bonus rate after going up to 197.

He also never placed higher than 5th at 174, jumped 2 weights, and made it to the finals.  Studs like Brooks, Hidlay, Nickal all made significant jumps in bonus rates going up to 197.  It's just not an elite weight class.  We've had one, J'Den Cox, true 197 pounder in the last decade that is world class.  Could add Snyder if he didn't make that early transition to 97kg

[Greenwave]

34 minutes ago, Fadzaev2 said:

I don't remember it being this bad last year overall.....to me, a big part of the problem was not being able to follow the coverage along, at least with Track....Track was terrible this time.  It was hard to follow along that's for sure.  Fortunately, the competition at both the Midlands and SS wasn't that great, so I just "bagged it".  It better get better from here on out.

Guys this is on the venue giving them information.   I agree it was horrible but what did Soldier Salute give them.

[1032004]

34 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

He also never placed higher than 5th at 174, jumped 2 weights, and made it to the finals.  Studs like Brooks, Hidlay, Nickal all made significant jumps in bonus rates going up to 197.  It's just not an elite weight class.  We've had one, J'Den Cox, true 197 pounder in the last decade that is world class.  Could add Snyder if he didn't make that early transition to 97kg

And when 197’s go up to heavyweight they often do better too.  Yet people think we need more upper weight classes…

[BruceyB]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

And when 197’s go up to heavyweight they often do better too.  Yet people think we need more upper weight classes…

We can fight this battle together until the end.

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

He also never placed higher than 5th at 174, jumped 2 weights, and made it to the finals.  Studs like Brooks, Hidlay, Nickal all made significant jumps in bonus rates going up to 197.  It's just not an elite weight class.  We've had one, J'Den Cox, true 197 pounder in the last decade that is world class.  Could add Snyder if he didn't make that early transition to 97kg

Yeah...I'd imagine that's pretty common when you're talking about 3X Champs or 3X Finalists and a 2X Champ at any weight. 
I'd guess if they move up, they'd probably have a higher bonus rate irrespective of weight class. 

It shouldn't really be shocking that Starocci is having a higher bonus rate this year.

 

Also...Kyle Snyder won a World Championship not long after he was unable to win the B1Gs or the NCAAS at 197...so I'd still probably include him instead of holding that against 197. 

That was also the same year J'Den Cox took a 5th at 197. 

 

4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

And when 197’s go up to heavyweight they often do better too.  Yet people think we need more upper weight classes…

You seem pretty fixated on this "people think we need more upper weight," when really...the ONLY thing I've seen is people suggesting adjusting the weights so they look a little closer to the rest of the world and the jump isn't 197 to 285. 

 

And 197s "often" do better at HWT? I don't know, is that true? What constitutes often? 165's often do better at 174, 125's often do better at 133. 

And some of these examples are really bad. Bo Nickal? Again, the guy who was in the finals as a Freshmen? Stands to reason there's a pretty good chance he'll have success 3 years later. He moved up to 184 and did better. The guy that beat him at 174 did worse. He went up to 197 and had even more success. I don't think there's some larger point being made there. If '97 was so much easier, Starocci would probably have followed through and Wrestled it. 

 

I think what you're doing is confirmation bias. You've got a conclusion and you're working back and saying the facts fit your bias. Not sure they do. Yonger Bastida in a year in which he couldn't go down in a match or he was..in a LOT of trouble, he took a 5th at 197 due to his Freestyle Wrestling. He hasn't placed at HWT because it's a BIG jump in size. 

[1032004]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Yeah...I'd imagine that's pretty common when you're talking about 3X Champs or 3X Finalists and a 2X Champ at any weight. 
I'd guess if they move up, they'd probably have a higher bonus rate irrespective of weight class. 

It shouldn't really be shocking that Starocci is having a higher bonus rate this year.

 

Also...Kyle Snyder won a World Championship not long after he was unable to win the B1Gs or the NCAAS at 197...so I'd still probably include him instead of holding that against 197. 

That was also the same year J'Den Cox took a 5th at 197. 

 

You seem pretty fixated on this "people think we need more upper weight," when really...the ONLY thing I've seen is people suggesting adjusting the weights so they look a little closer to the rest of the world and the jump isn't 197 to 285. 

 

And 197s "often" do better at HWT? I don't know, is that true? What constitutes often? 165's often do better at 174, 125's often do better at 133. 

And some of these examples are really bad. Bo Nickal? Again, the guy who was in the finals as a Freshmen? Stands to reason there's a pretty good chance he'll have success 3 years later. He moved up to 184 and did better. The guy that beat him at 174 did worse. He went up to 197 and had even more success. I don't think there's some larger point being made there. If '97 was so much easier, Starocci would probably have followed through and Wrestled it. 

 

I think what you're doing is confirmation bias. You've got a conclusion and you're working back and saying the facts fit your bias. Not sure they do. Yonger Bastida in a year in which he couldn't go down in a match or he was..in a LOT of trouble, he took a 5th at 197 due to his Freestyle Wrestling. He hasn't placed at HWT because it's a BIG jump in size. 

Fair enough, maybe it’s not many “people.”  @bnwtwg definitely though.

Yes, 197’s often do better at heavyweight.  Using Bastida as an example for not is pretty funny, considering he was undefeated going into NCAA’s including wins over the guys that ended up finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th (two of those by major) he was/is most definitely better at heavyweight, but was injured during NCAA’s last year.

Looking at this season, you’ve also got Isaac Trumble, best finish R16 at 197, currently ranked #5 at heavyweight.

Other past examples: 

Lucas Davison: best finish R16 at 197, 3x AA and 1x finalist at heavyweight

Cassar: backup at 197, champ at heavyweight

Derek White: slightly over .500 at 197, R12 then NCAA finals at heavyweight

Jacob Kasper: 1-2 at NCAA’s at 184, 2x AA at heavyweight 

 

As a lightweight guy, I would actually disagree that “125’s often do better at 133.”  If anything that might be the jump guys struggle with the most.  Looking back in the wrestlestat era unless I missed it I don’t see a single guy such as the above that wrestled 125 as a non-redshirt and failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 and AA’d.  Sure lots of guys that did well at 125 also do well at 133 though. 

Closest example might be Vito who went from 3rd & 4th at 125 to a 2x champ at 133, but if you use that example then you’d also have to use Kyle Snyder in the first list considering he had 4 losses at 197 and only 1 over the next 3 years at heavyweight.

Edited December 31, 2024 by 1032004

[Spencerlee]

11 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Anyone who saw that match have a breakdown?  Hard to imagine there was a gap in skill and more likely a huge gap in strength & size

[nhs67]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Fair enough, maybe it’s not many “people.”  @bnwtwg definitely though.

Yes, 197’s often do better at heavyweight.  Using Bastida as an example for not is pretty funny, considering he was undefeated going into NCAA’s including wins over the guys that ended up finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th (two of those by major) he was/is most definitely better at heavyweight, but was injured during NCAA’s last year.

Looking at this season, you’ve also got Isaac Trumble, best finish R16 at 197, currently ranked #5 at heavyweight.

Other past examples: 

Lucas Davison: best finish R16 at 197, 3x AA and 1x finalist at heavyweight

Cassar: backup at 197, champ at heavyweight

Derek White: slightly over .500 at 197, R12 then NCAA finals at heavyweight

Jacob Kasper: 1-2 at NCAA’s at 184, 2x AA at heavyweight 

 

As a lightweight guy, I would actually disagree that “125’s often do better at 133.”  If anything that might be the jump guys struggle with the most.  Looking back in the wrestlestat era unless I missed it I don’t see a single guy such as the above that wrestled 125 as a non-redshirt and failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 and AA’d.  Sure lots of guys that did well at 125 also do well at 133 though. 

Closest example might be Vito who went from 3rd & 4th at 125 to a 2x champ at 133, but if you use that example then you’d also have to use Kyle Snyder in the first list considering he had 4 losses at 197 and only 1 over the next 3 years at heavyweight.

Suriano won it at 133 after not winning it at 125.

[Gus]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Suriano won it at 133 after not winning it at 125.

But then won again at 125. He’s quite a unique case. 

[BarSeries]

11 minutes ago, Gus said:

But then won again at 125. He’s quite a unique case. 

He's also done bizarre Handsome Tuesday posts for like the last 52 straight weeks. Unique indeed. 

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Using Bastida as an example for not is pretty funny, considering he was undefeated going into NCAA’s including wins over the guys that ended up finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th (two of those by major) he was/is most definitely better at heavyweight, but was injured during NCAA’s last year.

He lost an OT match to Davidson who he'd bet in a close match earlier in the year. But no, he didn't do better at HWT. It's pretty easy to see actually. He took a 5th at 197 and a DNP at HWT. And he did that in his first year of Wrestling Folkstyle Wrestling competitively...most Freshmen have trouble on the mat. A Cuban guy who never Wrestled on the Mat, he's probably going to have more problems down there. 

5th>DNP

And everyone's hurting at the end of the year. 

 

Quote

Other past examples:

You realize...guys best finishes TEND to be when they're at the end of their careers, right? It's really not that shocking...

They SHOULD do better as a Sr than they did as a Freshmen and so on. You're assuming they're doing better because of the weight class vs the fact that they've gone from HS Wrestling to now Wresting 4-5 years in College...with a College Strength and Conditioning program and College diets and College Coaches.

 

So yeah, just as with Nickal, or Brooks, I don't find it particularly shocking they did their best...as they finished up their careers. 

 

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

As a lightweight guy, I would actually disagree that “125’s often do better at 133.”  

Seriously? This is why you keep bringing up the suggestion that they move 197 up a big like it's an existential threat to the sport? Because you were a 125?

 

Again, MOST people end up doing better when they move up and mature physically. Throwing out Vito Arajau does...nothing to dissuade me from that argument. 

 

 

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

 Looking back in the wrestlestat era unless I missed it I don’t see a single guy such as the above that wrestled 125 as a non-redshirt and failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 and AA’d.

Well...I guess Davis from Penn State has a chance to make history this year then

Except McGee from ASU already has(and I'm not going to spend time going back to look into this as...I don't know if you're so defensive and that's why you're missing my larger point or if you are intentionally missing it, but I suspect it's the prior).

McGee 6,4,3(shockingly, as he got older, he did better) and NQ/R16 at 125).

You've also change the criteria now to "failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 an AA'd," when it was simply just gotten better(and ignored that I was clearly referring to EVERY weight and apparently just happened to pick the one you Wrestled at). 

 

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Closest example might be Vito who went from 3rd & 4th at 125 to a 2x champ at 133, but if you use that example then you’d also have to use Kyle Snyder in the first list considering he had 4 losses at 197 and only 1 over the next 3 years at heavyweight.

Then you'd also have a harder time making the argument that 197 is such a soft weight class. 

But...here again...better as they got older. 

 

Lets take the NCs each year every year and see how they did as a Jr and Sr vs Fresh and Soph. Where do you think there's a bigger correlation? Their grade or the weight? 

Edited December 31, 2024 by scourge165

[1032004]

49 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

He lost an OT match to Davidson who he'd bet in a close match earlier in the year. But no, he didn't do better at HWT. It's pretty easy to see actually. He took a 5th at 197 and a DNP at HWT. And he did that in his first year of Wrestling Folkstyle Wrestling competitively...most Freshmen have trouble on the mat. A Cuban guy who never Wrestled on the Mat, he's probably going to have more problems down there. 

5th>DNP

And everyone's hurting at the end of the year. 

 

You realize...guys best finishes TEND to be when they're at the end of their careers, right? It's really not that shocking...

They SHOULD do better as a Sr than they did as a Freshmen and so on. You're assuming they're doing better because of the weight class vs the fact that they've gone from HS Wrestling to now Wresting 4-5 years in College...with a College Strength and Conditioning program and College diets and College Coaches.

 

So yeah, just as with Nickal, or Brooks, I don't find it particularly shocking they did their best...as they finished up their careers. 

 

Seriously? This is why you keep bringing up the suggestion that they move 197 up a big like it's an existential threat to the sport? Because you were a 125?

 

Again, MOST people end up doing better when they move up and mature physically. Throwing out Vito Arajau does...nothing to dissuade me from that argument. 

 

Well...I guess Davis from Penn State has a chance to make history this year then

You've also change the criteria now to "failed to AA, then bumped up to 133 an AA'd," when it was simply just gotten better(and ignored that I was clearly referring to EVERY weight and apparently just happened to pick the one you Wrestled at). 

 

Then you'd also have a harder time making the argument that 197 is such a soft weight class. 

But...here again...better as they got older. 

 

Let’s take the NCs each year every year and see how they did as a Jr and Sr vs Fresh and Soph. Where do you think there's a bigger correlation? Their grade or the weight? 

I’m not sure that I’m on board with the other poster’s argument that 197 is that much easier than 174 or 184.  

But heavyweight is absolutely easier than 197.

Maybe @Wrestleknownothing could help but I’d be pretty confident in betting that outside of going from 197 to heavyweight, on the whole guys saw better place improvement if they stayed at the same weight or went down compared to moving up.  

I only mentioned that I was a lightweight to show that I’m not biased, as I would also bet that going from 125 to 133 has probably been the toughest jump for guys to make.  If anything I was expecting someone to call 125 a child’s weight or something.  Lots of examples of guys having success at 125 but not at 133 - Noto this year looks to be another example.  Also Taylor Lamont, Rayvon Foley, Jack Mueller to name a few.  Mueller is a great example as he went 125 - 6th, 133 - R12, 125 - 2nd.  

Again, the fact that you’re trying to use Bastida as an example of doing worse proves how tough it is to find a real example of someone going from 197 to heavyweight and doing worse.  He is absolutely better as a heavyweight, but I’ll acknowledge that I’m sure some of that is due to him getting more folkstyle experience.  Any other examples?

Edited December 31, 2024 by 1032004

[scourge165]

58 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Maybe @Wrestleknownothing could help but I’d be pretty confident in betting that outside of going from 197 to heavyweight, on the whole guys saw better place improvement if they stayed at the same weight or went down compared to moving up.

You really think it's likely guys who wrestled at multiple weight classes would on balance do better at the lighter weight class vs the heavier weight? 

How many guys are going down a weight by the way? Aside from guys who a redshirting(like Sinclair who...is obviously not a '97 pounder)...how many guys are going to have seasons up a weight class? And most of the ones I can think of are outliers. Beau Bartlett who wrestled '49 because Lee was at '41 or Mike Poeta who had to Wrestle '65  

It seems exceedingly obvious that going up and building has led to a lot more success than guys cutting or going down. That was the entire reason people wanted '57KG to go up because it's an unnaturally small weight class for 99% of adult Men and then the gap is so big, you're having guys like Vito not even trying to Micic looks like he's on death's door(or Rivera, even RBY). 

But, sticking to College? Yeah, I'd feeling pretty confident if you went back to the last 25 tournaments, guys have had quite a bit more success at higher weights than they have had at lower weights. Though...again, mostly just for common sense reasons. Because guys lift and grow into weight classes or they're forced to cut earlier on.

 

 

Quote

I only mentioned that I was a lightweight to show that I’m not biased, as I would also bet that going from 125 to 133 has probably been the toughest jump for guys to make.  If anything I was expecting someone to call 125 a child’s weight or something.

Feels like you only accomplished the opposite and it did make you appear biased as you've brought this issue up multiple times now where...it's really not relevant. This was about the 197 weight class and YOU made it about 125. 

I also wouldn't call 125 a child's weight because I don't want to be a dick, but it's pretty small. Spencer Lee is...what, 5'2? He's a great Wrestler, but...that's pretty small guy and a bit of an outlier. 

Taylor Lamont then came back and didn't place at '25 the next year.

How about Michael McGee? DNP in 2 chance at '25, 3X AA at '33. You brought up Vito. Lets see what...Davis does this year or Stanich in a year or two, or...I don't know, most guys who grow out of '25. 

But now we're stuck talking exclusively about the 125-pound weight class when that's not the point I'm making. I agree...if you've got too small of a frame to put on weight and move up like Kasak has or Haines or Yianni, Dake, Taylor...whoever, then it's going to be a pretty tough jump but I don't think you're going to find empirical data to defend the;

58 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

on the whole guys saw better place improvement if they stayed at the same weight or went down compared to moving up.  

argument. I'd bet it's the exact opposite.

But I'm just not as invested in this, so I'm not going to match you on going back and looking this up. I'm just pulling the most obvious names I can think of. 

 

Quote

Again, the fact that you’re trying to use Bastida as an example of doing worse proves how tough it is to find a real example of someone going from 197 to heavyweight and doing worse.  He is absolutely better as a heavyweight, but I’ll acknowledge that I’m sure some of that is due to him getting more folkstyle experience.  Any other examples?

I used Bastida because this thread was very specifically about 197 and HWT and now it shifted. 

I'd use Garrett Lowney or a  few DOZEN other guys who were lighter HWTs who struggled because they were just too small for the weight...which is where the entire discussion originated from. The gap between 197 and HWT.

I'll also use Ethan Laird, but you'll now just say I'm only using two guys.

The point is it's difficult to go from Wrestling 197 to having to Wrestle guys who are 260 or heavier if you get a guy like Mocco or whoever. 

"He is absolutely doing better at HWT."

Sure...unless you use NCAA Tournament results, but we're so far from the actual subject, we're more on your very narrow argument.

 

 

I'll take the bet that more guys have success at higher weights than lower weights...period. Going up...is better. It's healthier, it makes Wrestlers better and it's been better for the sport. It was better when they moved the weights up and I think it's better for a guy to lift and add weight and muscle than to spend their career cutting.

That's my point. You believe guys do better staying at their weight or moving down. That's the lane I'm staying in rather than jumping all over the place now. 

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by scourge165

[1032004]

31 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

You really think it's likely guys who wrestled at multiple weight classes would on balance do better at the lighter weight class vs the heavier weight? 

How many guys are going down a weight by the way? Aside from guys who a redshirting(like Sinclair who...is obviously not a '97 pounder)...how many guys are going to have seasons up a weight class? And most of the ones I can think of are outliers. Beau Bartlett who wrestled '49 because Lee was at '41 or Mike Poeta who had to Wrestle '65  

It seems exceedingly obvious that going up and building has led to a lot more success than guys cutting or going down. That was the entire reason people wanted '57KG to go up because it's an unnaturally small weight class for 99% of adult Men and then the gap is so big, you're having guys like Vito not even trying to Micic looks like he's on death's door(or Rivera, even RBY). 

But, sticking to College? Yeah, I'd feeling pretty confident if you went back to the last 25 tournaments, guys have had quite a bit more success at higher weights than they have had at lower weights. Though...again, mostly just for common sense reasons. Because guys lift and grow into weight classes or they're forced to cut earlier on.

 

 

Feels like you only accomplished the opposite and it did make you appear biased as you've brought this issue up multiple times now where...it's really not relevant. This was about the 197 weight class and YOU made it about 125. 

I also wouldn't call 125 a child's weight because I don't want to be a dick, but it's pretty small. Spencer Lee is...what, 5'2? He's a great Wrestler, but...that's pretty small guy and a bit of an outlier. 

Taylor Lamont then came back and didn't place at '25 the next year.

How about Michael McGee? DNP in 2 chance at '25, 3X AA at '33. You brought up Vito. Lets see what...Davis does this year or Stanich in a year or two, or...I don't know, most guys who grow out of '25. 

But now we're stuck talking exclusively about the 125-pound weight class when that's not the point I'm making. I agree...if you've got too small of a frame to put on weight and move up like Kasak has or Haines or Yianni, Dake, Taylor...whoever, then it's going to be a pretty tough jump but I don't think you're going to find empirical data to defend the;

argument. I'd bet it's the exact opposite.

But I'm just not as invested in this, so I'm not going to match you on going back and looking this up. I'm just pulling the most obvious names I can think of. 

To your first question, no that’s not what I was saying.  I agree that guys tend to do better as they get older regardless of weight class.  I just think that except for going from 197 to heavyweight, the improvement is probably better for guys that stay at the same weight or go down compared to guys that move up.

And yes, going down isn’t very common.  But staying at the same weight for 3 or 4 years is so was kinda just lumping in going down with that.

I was not the one that brought up 125/133.  Yes it was part of your larger point but you were the one that said “125’s often do better at 133” and I was just saying I think that’s probably the toughest jump for guys to make.

Good call on McGee, I did not catch him.  Looks like Scott Parker of Lehigh is another.   Although you could also argue McGee was helped by transferring from ODU to ASU (he also redshirted after transfering and in between the move from 125 to 133).

I would not say that Lamont is an argument in your favor, we don’t know how he would have done in 2020 but overall he was clearly better at 125 than 133 regardless of age.  He went:

125 - 25-5, R12

133 - 15-7, tourney cancelled

125 - 13-3, 5th

125 - 12-6, R16

133 - 11-16, 0-2

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by 1032004

[1032004]

51 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

 

I'll also use Ethan Laird, but you'll now just say I'm only using two guys.

I'll take the bet that more guys have success at higher weights than lower weights...period. Going up...is better. It's healthier, it makes Wrestlers better and it's been better for the sport. It was better when they moved the weights up and I think it's better for a guy to lift and add weight and muscle than to spend their career cutting.

That's my point. You believe guys do better staying at their weight or moving down. That's the lane I'm staying in rather than jumping all over the place now. 

 

Laird fits in with your pattern of “doing better as he got older,” but he’s not an example of bumping up to heavyweight from 197 and doing worse.

 

Here let’s look at last year’s champs:

125 - Figueroa - same weight

133 - Vito - previously moved up from 125

141 - Mendez - up from 133

149 - Henson - same weight

157 - Haines - same weight

165 - O’Toole - same weight

174 - Starocci - same weight

184 - Keckeisen - same weight 

197 - Brooks - up from 184

285 - Kerk - same weight

 

So of last year’s champs, 7 of them were at the same weight they had been for their entire career.  Of course 125’s don’t have the option of a lower weight and 3 of the others have since moved up for this season, but at least one of them will not be an NCAA champ this year.

Edited December 31, 2024 by 1032004

[1032004]

2023 champs:

125 - Glory - same weight

133 - Vito - up from 125

141 - Alirez - previously down from 149

149 - Yianni - previously up from 141

157 - O’Connor - previously up from 149

165 - O’Toole - same weight

174 - Starocci - same weight

184 - Brooks - same weight

197 - Nino - previously up from 184

285 - Parris - same weight 

 

[scourge165]

9 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

To your first question, no that’s not what I was saying.  I agree that guys tend to do better as they get older regardless of weight class.  I just think that except for going from 197 to heavyweight, the improvement is probably better for guys that stay at the same weight or go down compared to guys that move up.

Ok...well, disagree. I think most guys, especially the top guys go up at least one weight during their career and ultimately have more success at the higher weight.

I think HWT is the hardest as you've got a ~90 pound difference in weight limits and...that's about it. 

Otherwise I'm just repeating myself that I think guys do better going up in weight.

22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I would not say that Lamont is an argument in your favor,

I wouldn't say he hurts it. 

He took a 5th in a year beating two guys who were 7-5 in the #37 seed from Stanford, Howard, the #22 seed who was 7-6 and then beat Taylor Lamonto prace out  twice(a guy who was an AA at both 125, then moved up to 133 and was an AA again and is now at 141 and doing just fine.

 

I'm going to end it here and...then really be done because I don't care to parse out the difference in Lamont Wrestling '25, taking a 6th, then not placing and then coming back in '23 with a better record, higher bonus rate at '33 and losing a 2-1 TB to Mendez and a 8-5 match to Vito(when he absolutely smoked Fix and RBY) is more impressive or better en route to taking a 7th.

 

My argument is simple. Guys do better on balance when they move up. That is going to be impacted at the extremes when a guy just doesn't have the frame to move up like...I guess a few really small 125-pounders. Though I think that's more rare than guys who are tweeners and are at a larger, more inherent disadvantage than a 5'11 215LB "HWT."