DT better be ready...

[wrestlingshoe]

3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Ok so now that Taylor has finally hit puberty and Dake is de-aging I think that means they are finally the same age. Who wins in this all-time fantasy match?

First, the better question is, how does Dake do against Yaz? Dake has optimized down at 74, two classes below DT and Yaz. 

[MPhillips]

4 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Who wins in this all-time fantasy match?

Only one is undefeated...

[Hammerlock3]

18 hours ago, MPhillips said:

Only one is undefeated...

HEY HIGHSCHOOL!

[BAC]

Brooks absolutely has a shot here. 

Going into the year, I'd have had him at 3rd best in the world, behind Taylor and Yazdani.  Yes, Taylor handled Brooks pretty well in 2023 WTTs, but didn't dominate him by any means -- and Brooks beat Zahid (who ended up medaling up a weight) in about the same way Taylor has beaten Zahid.  Brooks also won U23s over the Russian National champ.  And with Brooks filling out physically to Taylor's weight, I expect them to be closer.

Plus, even if Brooks hasn't improved to the level that Taylor was at last year, you have to remember he's still ascending that hill, while Taylor is on the back end of it.  We won't know how much of a bite out of Taylor that Father Time has taken until OTTs.  But 33 is old for this game.  

I'll predict a 2-1 series.  Slightly favor DT but a Brooks win wouldn't surprise me at all.  

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, BAC said:

Brooks absolutely has a shot here. 

Going into the year, I'd have had him at 3rd best in the world, behind Taylor and Yazdani.  Yes, Taylor handled Brooks pretty well in 2023 WTTs, but didn't dominate him by any means -- and Brooks beat Zahid (who ended up medaling up a weight) in about the same way Taylor has beaten Zahid.  Brooks also won U23s over the Russian National champ.  And with Brooks filling out physically to Taylor's weight, I expect them to be closer.

Plus, even if Brooks hasn't improved to the level that Taylor was at last year, you have to remember he's still ascending that hill, while Taylor is on the back end of it.  We won't know how much of a bite out of Taylor that Father Time has taken until OTTs.  But 33 is old for this game.  

I'll predict a 2-1 series.  Slightly favor DT but a Brooks win wouldn't surprise me at all.  

I asked before, and its certainly taylor losing would surprise me but not stun me, but how is brooks gonna beat him?

Underhooking him won't work, brooks is not a better handfighter and likely worse, no one is getting tired, Taylor's defense is much better, both take doubles and outside steps from space so thats a wash too, Taylors cross pick/knee pull is better than any leg attack brooks has...

Also Brooks had to gas out Zahid to beat him, pretty sure taylor had him from the first whistle.

[mspart]

Taylor better be ready for sure.   But if peaked, he shouldn't have much to worry about.  

mspart

[BAC]

41 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

I asked before, and its certainly taylor losing would surprise me but not stun me, but how is brooks gonna beat him?

Brooks likes the underhooks but, like Taylor, his offense is dynamic. Their last match was 5-4, and Brooks took him down with a hi-c and again with a double.  He also has some nasty trips and picks.  It isn't going to be that Brooks suddenly comes up with some new crazy move, but rather with the same stuff he uses to beat everyone else, and the same stuff he threw at Taylor last time.

Lets assume conditioning and strength are a wash.  If so, my guess is that Taylor is still the better counter-wrestler, but won't be able to match Brooks' offensive output.  The difference, I think, will be how sharp and clean Brooks' attacks are.  Last time he was a bit imprecise and Taylor exploited it.

The truth is they have very similar styles.  Not sure if Brooks pulls it off this time or not, but when it happens, I think people will say Taylor ran into a younger, fitter, faster version of himself.  

[mspart]

Taylor hangs on for 2024.   After that the future is unclear.  - magic 8 ball.

mspart

[bnwtwg]

19 hours ago, BAC said:

Brooks absolutely has a shot here. 

Going into the year, I'd have had him at 3rd best in the world, behind Taylor and Yazdani.  Yes, Taylor handled Brooks pretty well in 2023 WTTs, but didn't dominate him by any means -- and Brooks beat Zahid (who ended up medaling up a weight) in about the same way Taylor has beaten Zahid.  Brooks also won U23s over the Russian National champ.  And with Brooks filling out physically to Taylor's weight, I expect them to be closer.

Plus, even if Brooks hasn't improved to the level that Taylor was at last year, you have to remember he's still ascending that hill, while Taylor is on the back end of it.  We won't know how much of a bite out of Taylor that Father Time has taken until OTTs.  But 33 is old for this game.  

I'll predict a 2-1 series.  Slightly favor DT but a Brooks win wouldn't surprise me at all.  

Brooks barely beat Zahid. It was not a blow out unless you are talking about Zahid's lungs at the end of the match.

 

I will gladly take wagers that Taylor wins his series 2-0 over anyone in the 86 bracket

[Bigbrog]

Based on eye test Brooks clearly has jumped levels...again...I have a feeling that it will translate over to freestyle and it will be close with Taylor...would not be surprised if it goes to the third match.  Brain tells me that it will be Taylor this year and then Brooks takes over.

[CHROMEBIRD]

20 hours ago, BAC said:

Lets assume conditioning and strength are a wash.  If so, my guess is that Taylor is still the better counter-wrestler, but won't be able to match Brooks' offensive output.  The difference, I think, will be how sharp and clean Brooks' attacks are.  Last time he was a bit imprecise and Taylor exploited it.

The truth is they have very similar styles.  Not sure if Brooks pulls it off this time or not, but when it happens, I think people will say Taylor ran into a younger, fitter, faster version of himself.  

Strength and conditioning should be Brooks' edge. He had the better gas tank last year and should absolutely test Taylor... push pace, heavy hands, hard snaps, pressure, push, look for the blast double like last time. I still think DT may need to shake off some rust and will use his length and ties to slow it to a chess match but Brooks should play to his own strengths.

[mspart]

Taylor.   Not Brooks. 

mspart

[scourge165]

On 3/31/2024 at 2:57 PM, Truzzcat said:

I think if David wins this olympics he's the goat simply because if David Taylor never existed Hassan Yazdani would almost certainly be the goat, and DT is 5-1 against him. you can definitely argue given how long it took him to make the team that dings him but I don't think anyone has had a better 5-6 year stretch than David from 2018 to present day.

 

I almost posted this and then remembered satiev, I am willing to go with a tie for first.

Well...IF you believe that Sadulaev was injured for his last loss, then his losses on the Sr circuit are as a 13-year-old and a 6-5 loss to Snyder after bumping up a weight class.

I'd put Sadulaev as my #1. It's subjective of course, reasonable people can disagree(and unreasonable people can argue with me and claim Dake is ahead of Sadulaev because he wrestles a tougher weight)...but a pretty strong argument could be made there.

The argument they have over DT is that they won at multiple weights. Saitiev and Sadulaev. But I'm certainly not going to argue against DT very hard. It is a reason I'd like to see him go one more cycle. If he could manage to get a couple more WCs and MAYBE one more Olympics, then...it'd be really interesting.

 

Of course I don't find the OPs premise as absurd as others on here do.

[scourge165]

On 3/28/2024 at 7:50 PM, juniorvarsity said:

Taylor has spent most of his career figuring out how to not get beat by Yazdani's underhook. He will be well adjusted to how Brooks hand fights. 

But also, just no. Taylor has not taken a step back. Although Brooks is improving, you cannot say Taylor is going to lose unless you think Taylor is in decline.

Taylor at 2023 Worlds: r1)pin, r2)tech, quarters)tech, semis)pin, finals)pin 

-Cool. Might as well not Wrestle then because "just no."

 

And no, I do not have to believe that Taylor has taken this big step back in order to believe that Brooks could beat him. I COULD(and do) think that Brooks is now comfortably at the weight he'll be wrestling at and that he's in fact taken a big jump and that may be what it takes to be Taylor. 

You're acting like this is something you can quantify. Like a couple of sprinters. Taylor ran a 9.6, Brooks a 9.9. The ONLY way you could believe Brooks could win is if he runs a sub 9.6. That's not how Wrestling works. One big TD, feet to back and it could and likely will end that match.

Brooks is certainly capable of that. He's also capable of hand-fighting, hanging in there and winning a 2-1 match IMO with a pushout and a...DT going on the 30 second clock.

 

I do not think Taylor will lose, but I think it's reasonable enough that it's not some CRAZY upset pick like Snyder getting knocked off and I think it could simply be the result of Brooks jumping levels. 

[Truzzcat]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

Well...IF you believe that Sadulaev was injured for his last loss, then his losses on the Sr circuit are as a 13-year-old and a 6-5 loss to Snyder after bumping up a weight class.

I'd put Sadulaev as my #1. It's subjective of course, reasonable people can disagree(and unreasonable people can argue with me and claim Dake is ahead of Sadulaev because he wrestles a tougher weight)...but a pretty strong argument could be made there.

The argument they have over DT is that they won at multiple weights. Saitiev and Sadulaev. But I'm certainly not going to argue against DT very hard. It is a reason I'd like to see him go one more cycle. If he could manage to get a couple more WCs and MAYBE one more Olympics, then...it'd be really interesting.

 

Of course I don't find the OPs premise as absurd as others on here do.

I think Buvaisar and Sadulaev are always safe picks to call the goat I'd never argue with anyone there Satiev is probably my favorite wrestler ever. DT's dominance (outside of the hangover loss to Yazdani) has just been unparalleled but despite my argument that Yazdani could be the best ever if DT did not exist I will say 86 is likely on of the weakest weights in terms of depth if not the weakest. Its certainly very top heavy.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Well...IF you believe that Sadulaev was injured for his last loss, then his losses on the Sr circuit are as a 13-year-old and a 6-5 loss to Snyder after bumping up a weight class.

I'd put Sadulaev as my #1. It's subjective of course, reasonable people can disagree(and unreasonable people can argue with me and claim Dake is ahead of Sadulaev because he wrestles a tougher weight)...but a pretty strong argument could be made there.

The argument they have over DT is that they won at multiple weights. Saitiev and Sadulaev. But I'm certainly not going to argue against DT very hard. It is a reason I'd like to see him go one more cycle. If he could manage to get a couple more WCs and MAYBE one more Olympics, then...it'd be really interesting.

 

Of course I don't find the OPs premise as absurd as others on here do.

How old was Saduleev when he was 13? 

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

How old was Saduleev when he was 13? 

20.

[BarSeries]

Edit

Edited April 8 by BarSeries

[Gus]

On 4/3/2024 at 6:54 PM, BAC said:

Brooks likes the underhooks but, like Taylor, his offense is dynamic. Their last match was 5-4, and Brooks took him down with a hi-c and again with a double.  He also has some nasty trips and picks.  It isn't going to be that Brooks suddenly comes up with some new crazy move, but rather with the same stuff he uses to beat everyone else, and the same stuff he threw at Taylor last time.

Lets assume conditioning and strength are a wash.  If so, my guess is that Taylor is still the better counter-wrestler, but won't be able to match Brooks' offensive output.  The difference, I think, will be how sharp and clean Brooks' attacks are.  Last time he was a bit imprecise and Taylor exploited it.

The truth is they have very similar styles.  Not sure if Brooks pulls it off this time or not, but when it happens, I think people will say Taylor ran into a younger, fitter, faster version of himself.  

Also a possibility that Brooks has a strength advantage. He looked massive and pushed Trent Hidlay around very effectively with that underhook. I favor DT but Brooks wrestled him tough last year and looks better than ever right now. 

[Hammerlock3]

40 minutes ago, Gus said:

Also a possibility that Brooks has a strength advantage. He looked massive and pushed Trent Hidlay around very effectively with that underhook. I favor DT but Brooks wrestled him tough last year and looks better than ever right now. 

hidlay and brooks were both 184 last year, taylor has been at 189 for what 5 years? Doubt there is a strength advantage. I'd go more of an "overall youth" advantage.

[scourge165]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:22 AM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

How old was Saduleev when he was 13? 

My mistake. He was 16 at the time of his non-Snyder loss and the neck injury. 153-3 and Snyder's is pretty good and he did not look like himself at the last WC. 

 

The point was...he's been pretty good. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

11 hours ago, scourge165 said:

My mistake. He was 16 at the time of his non-Snyder loss and the neck injury. 153-3 and Snyder's is pretty good and he did not look like himself at the last WC. 

 

The point was...he's been pretty good. 

He's pretty good, but the age cheating drove/drives me crazy.  Saduleev is quite a bit older than we thought, but obviously still great.  The age seemed to hit him hard this year.  We will see if he recovers.

Yianni tells a story about how he was in cadet world finals and talked to vito after the semi.  Vito was training with the club that Yianni's final opponent was from (Russia/Belarus/whomever).  Vito told Yianni that the club guys had been laughing all week bc Yianni's finals opponent was from their club and was like 20 and there was no way he would lose.  Yianni won, but that is an example of how things work. (the details are close if not 100% accurate)

Frank Popolizio said that one year at his Journeyman International tournament that every Russian "kid" had the exact same birthday on their papers!  Day and year!

[steamboat_charlie]

On 4/8/2024 at 3:27 PM, Hammerlock3 said:

hidlay and brooks were both 184 last year, taylor has been at 189 for what 5 years? Doubt there is a strength advantage. I'd go more of an "overall youth" advantage.

Sizable strength advantage, probably not.  But I do think Brooks has put on meaningful size that could prove to be a difference maker in the match.  

[Truzzcat]

7 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

He's pretty good, but the age cheating drove/drives me crazy.  Saduleev is quite a bit older than we thought, but obviously still great.  The age seemed to hit him hard this year.  We will see if he recovers.

Yianni tells a story about how he was in cadet world finals and talked to vito after the semi.  Vito was training with the club that Yianni's final opponent was from (Russia/Belarus/whomever).  Vito told Yianni that the club guys had been laughing all week bc Yianni's finals opponent was from their club and was like 20 and there was no way he would lose.  Yianni won, but that is an example of how things work. (the details are close if not 100% accurate)

Frank Popolizio said that one year at his Journeyman International tournament that every Russian "kid" had the exact same birthday on their papers!  Day and year!

the Iranian 100% do the same thing you cannot tell me that zare is 23 nohkodi is 22 and masoumi is like 19 or 20. If thats the case Zare started balding at 16 and masoumi hit puberty at 4.

[nhs67]

Okay guys, so I am sold.  I don't think DT is going to be ready.  I think he has been binge-drinking and partying far too much.