Is this a wake-up for Iowa..., finally?

[fishbane]

2 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Murin got way better. Idk what was expected of him. Brands got better. He was beating guys he shouldnt have. I don't think he was a highly regarded recruit.

Murin was #44 on the big board in his class.  That's a pretty good recruit, but maybe not blue chip.  Brandon Dallavia was 44 in the class of 2016 and he did not start at Stanford.  Michael Blockhus was 44 in the class of 2018 and he was a 1xAA maybe better this season, but was injured going into NCAAs after having a great regular season beating Franek and Robb.  Others around Murin in the class of 2017 include Dom Demas #43, Kordell Norfleet #46, and Hunter Bolen #50.  

Murin did improve some, but on the other hand he was kind of the same guy his entire time at Iowa.  He was R12 as a redshirt freshman, his sophomore year he qualified for NCAAs and there was no tournament due to covid, he was R12 in 2021, he as R12 in 2022, he placed 6th last year.  He just put it together at the right time last year.

[Powershouse]

I have to wonder if there are two things at play here:
1. Tom Brands' expectations..
2. Beth Goetz's (Iowa Director of Athletics) expectations
On the one hand, this has to feel like another miserable failure to Tom Brands. Only one guy in the finals, only four All-Americans, finishing "a lowly" fifth in the team standings, one spot/1.5 points behind Iowa State, and 105.5 points out of first...
One the other hand, Beth Goetz may see it as a top five team finish (one finals win away from being tied for third), nine National Qualifiers, a National finalist (on ESPN) and four All-Americans.
She may also see/understand that Brands' teams have never finished in less than eighth place (2007, his first season as head coach was when they finished there), and in 18 seasons the Hawkeyes have brought the University 14 team trophies, including winning four team titles. Other than Sanderson, there isn't a single other coach in NCAA Division I wrestling with that consistency in the last two decades. All the while, Brands' teams keep generating a TON of press (eyes on the U), continue to sell out dual meets and the donations to the program keep rolling in the door. Men's Wrestling is easily the gold standard of athletics programs on their campus, and rightfully so.
If I had to guess (and this is just a guess), Tom Brands' job is probably pretty secure at this point.

When framed as how the AD might view the program I don’t see many problems for the Brands.
On the other hand, Goetz has a history of banging heads with wrestling coaches - she was J Robinson’s nemesis at MN. Of course that may say as much about J Rob as it does about Goetz.
I don’t think team performance will be the issue that sinks the Brands, it will be stuff like the gambling infractions and the Ferrari debacle.

[BuckyBadger]

Brands might not have Iowa at the level most expect, but who else out there would?

If I’m the AD, I’m not getting rid of Brands unless there is someone like Cael that I can go after.

Who else do people think could make Iowa competitive with PSU at this point?

[fishbane]

10 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Brands might not have Iowa at the level most expect, but who else out there would?

If I’m the AD, I’m not getting rid of Brands unless there is someone like Cael that I can go after.

Who else do people think could make Iowa competitive with PSU at this point?

That's a tough one and why there likely won't be a change.  The existence of an obvious replacement candidate was probably the main reason Zaelsky got the axe back in 2006.

On the other hand you never know who will apply when the position opens up.  The Iowa job is definitely a top 3 position in the sport.  I would think any current head coach with ambitions of winning a national title would consider applying.  Any wrestler nearing retirement with head coaching aspirations would consider it.  I doubt PSU had a successor lined up when they sacked Sunderland and that worked out fine.

Sean Bormet, Mike Grey, Kevin Dresser, Larry Jones, Tony Robie, Tom Ryan, Mark Manning, Brian Smith, Pat Popolizio, Brandon Eggum, Rob Koll, Doug Schwab, Ryan Morningstar, Casey Cunningham, Tony Ramos, Brent Metcalf, Bill Zadick, Dan Dennis, Jake Varner, Logan Stieber, Tervel Dlahnev, Nick Gwiazdowski, Kyle Dake, David Taylor, Jordan Burroughs - none of those guys are refusing a phone call to discuss the Iowa job.  

OSU gave Tommy Chesbro the axe in 1984.  OSU was coming off a pair of NCAA runner up performances and had consecutive undefeated dual teams and conference titles.  They had beaten Iowa in the dual two years in a row only to finish behind them at NCAAs and winning a team title was the standard.  Chesbro had not done that since 1971.  His team finishes at NCAAs were 4,1,3,5,3,3,3,2,3,6,2,4,4,4,2, and 2 and he produced 3,3,0,0,0,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,0,2, and 2 (19 total) individual national champions in those years. His teams had won the Big 8 title 8 times and been in the top 5 at NCAAs every year except 1.  Gable had won 7 consecutive NCAA titles in 8 seasons at Iowa and you might not think he would be interested, but he still had a conversation with OSU about the position and they offered it to him.

I think if there is an opening at Iowa, OSU, or PSU all the big names take that call.  Whoever Iowa wants will have a bag of money thrown at them to take the position.

[Smsu150]

Is there any other sport where a coach has a team consistently in the top 5 of the country yet is under the scrutiny of Tom Brands?  Maybe Alabama football and that's a maybe.  

Say a basketball coach wins 4 national titles, favored to win a 5th but the tournament is canceled.  That same coach goes to countless "Final Fours," would there be a basketball fan base arguing the game has passed this coach by?  Or a change needs to be made. 

Penn State is the best team in the country, and that has been the case for the last 15 years, the next best team during this stretch has been Iowa. 

 

 

[Hammerlock3]

7 minutes ago, Smsu150 said:

Is there any other sport where a coach has a team consistently in the top 5 of the country yet is under the scrutiny of Tom Brands?  Maybe Alabama football and that's a maybe.  

Say a basketball coach wins 4 national titles, favored to win a 5th but the tournament is canceled.  That same coach goes to countless "Final Fours," would there be a basketball fan base arguing the game has passed this coach by?  Or a change needs to be made. 

Penn State is the best team in the country, and that has been the case for the last 15 years, the next best team during this stretch has been Iowa. 

 

 

well to explain not defend, Iowa had 20 plus years of running around talking about how people love to hate them. You have to pay a tax for that. Hence the scrutiny.

[Smsu150]

17 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

well to explain not defend, Iowa had 20 plus years of running around talking about how people love to hate them. You have to pay a tax for that. Hence the scrutiny.

I seem to remember people did/do hate Iowa.  Some of it, from way back when, was that many of the Iowa wrestlers (the Brands brothers included) seemed to embrace the "heel" role.  That, and the many favorable calls, mostly stalling, back in the Gable era.  Today, the Iowa guys generally seem like pretty good guys/sports.  Not sure where the hate comes from today.  Right now Penn State is every bit as dominate as the Hawks were during the 80's and 90's, but very few, maybe one,  have taken a "heel" turn (to use pro wrestling terminology). 

[Mr. PeanutButter]

18 minutes ago, Smsu150 said:

Is there any other sport where a coach has a team consistently in the top 5 of the country yet is under the scrutiny of Tom Brands?  Maybe Alabama football and that's a maybe.  

Say a basketball coach wins 4 national titles, favored to win a 5th but the tournament is canceled.  That same coach goes to countless "Final Fours," would there be a basketball fan base arguing the game has passed this coach by?  Or a change needs to be made. 

Penn State is the best team in the country, and that has been the case for the last 15 years, the next best team during this stretch has been Iowa. 

 

 

More individual championships, not consistently losing scrambles and having wrestlers finish their careers on a high note rather than backsliding their final year is what I want to see as a fan. 

Having more team championships would be gravy but I think that would require some major changes at PSU

[Smsu150]

5 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

More individual championships, not consistently losing scrambles and having wrestlers finish their careers on a high note rather than backsliding their final year is what I want to see as a fan. 

Having more team championships would be gravy but I think that would require some major changes at PSU

That wasn't my question? In your opinion, that is why is is under scrutiny.  I'm asking if there is a coach in another sport with the coaching credentials that Tom Brands has, that has ever been under similar scrutiny.   I said, maybe Saben with Alabama football.  I can't think of any others. 

 

Edited March 27 by Smsu150

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

Iowa is being passed up by Iowa State, Michigan and Illinois, and Ohio State not to mention Penn State.  These programs have either younger or more dynamic coaching staffs.  Iowa State has Dresser, St. John, Metcalf and Nate Carr.  Illinois had Poeta, Martinez, Delgado, O'Connor and Ed Ruth.  Michigan has Kevin Jackson, Micic, and Churella to help out. Tom Ryan has Steiber, Jaggers and Jordan.  Bourmet is out recruiting Iowa in Chicago and Illinois.  If I am a  blue chip kid Iowa would be the last place I would want to go.  Once the piplines to Iowa from PA and Illinois dry up (which they are) the end is imminent.  

[macwoodfleet]

17 minutes ago, KLCarnegieTech_1969 said:

Iowa is being passed up by Iowa State, Michigan and Illinois, and Ohio State not to mention Penn State.  These programs have either younger or more dynamic coaching staffs.  Iowa State has Dresser, St. John, Metcalf and Nate Carr.  Illinois had Poeta, Martinez, Delgado, O'Connor and Ed Ruth.  Michigan has Kevin Jackson, Micic, and Churella to help out. Tom Ryan has Steiber, Jaggers and Jordan.  Bourmet is out recruiting Iowa in Chicago and Illinois.  If I am a  blue chip kid Iowa would be the last place I would want to go.  Once the piplines to Iowa from PA and Illinois dry up (which they are) the end is imminent.  

Illinois is atrocious right now.

[pokemonster]

Just now, macwoodfleet said:

Illinois is atrocious right now.

Woah woah woah, you're about to catch the wrath of ILLINIwrestlingblog

[Winners Circle]

1 hour ago, Smsu150 said:

Is there any other sport where a coach has a team consistently in the top 5 of the country yet is under the scrutiny of Tom Brands?  Maybe Alabama football and that's a maybe.  

Say a basketball coach wins 4 national titles, favored to win a 5th but the tournament is canceled.  That same coach goes to countless "Final Fours," would there be a basketball fan base arguing the game has passed this coach by?  Or a change needs to be made. 

Penn State is the best team in the country, and that has been the case for the last 15 years, the next best team during this stretch has been Iowa. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Smsu150 said:

That wasn't my question? In your opinion, that is why is is under scrutiny.  I'm asking if there is a coach in another sport with the coaching credentials that Tom Brands has, that has ever been under similar scrutiny.   I said, maybe Saben with Alabama football.  I can't think of any others. 

 

Big difference between individual sports and team sports. Can't compare the two like it's apples to apples. What @Mr. PeanutButter is referring to, is how individuals are performing at the national tournament. Right now they're 'underperforming' by Iowa Hawkeye Wrestling standards. When multiple athletes (in an individual sport) are underperforming, that's a leadership issue imo.

[OMW]

I'm no Iowa liker or defender, in fact, I enjoy seeing them lose.

However, I don't get all of the fire Brands rhetoric.

What is the follow-up strategy, hire a coach with NO NCAA DI head coaching experience?

There is no cognitive evidence that supports DT, Dake or JB (or even Askren) having a desire to take the job in IC, or that they are even capable of being a successful head coach. Developing middle and high school kids is not the same as running a DI program with a bunch of blue-chippers.

And if Tom is "replaced", what does that do to wrestlers like Ayala, Arnold and Keuter, who are definitely Hawks based on the Iowa tradition and are obviously Brands guys?

Finishing behind Penn State sucks for anyone not Penn State. I get the frustration. I was frustrated with what was going on with the wrestling in Happy Valley for a long time.

But change for the sake of change at Iowa because they aren't winning National Championships is insanity.

In 2018 I didn't think Iowa was going to win NCAAs in 2021 (sorry you Iowa cats, 2020 doesn't count - there's no banner and no NCAA recognition, there was a very good chance Iowa could have won it, but anything can happen - and covid did).

So, what I'm getting at with that last paragraph is who knows what can happen in a couple of years. Iowa could have 4 champs (let's say Ayala, the youngest Ferrari, Arnold and Skeeter-keeter), along with a few AAs and be right there in the conversation.

Doubtful, but again, anything can happen.

 

Edited March 27 by OMW

[Voice of the Quakers]

9 hours ago, Powershouse said:

When framed as how the AD might view the program I don’t see many problems for the Brands.
On the other hand, Goetz has a history of banging heads with wrestling coaches - she was J Robinson’s nemesis at MN. Of course that may say as much about J Rob as it does about Goetz.
I don’t think team performance will be the issue that sinks the Brands, it will be stuff like the gambling infractions and the Ferrari debacle.

I think the Brands brothers are underachieving at Iowa - bringing in the Ford Focus to Iowa City was a sign of desperation. But, so long as Carver-Hawkeye sells out and Iowa wins 90 percent of their matches the Brands brothers will be fine for the foreseeable future.

Beth Goetz has two much, much bigger fish to fry:

1) Figuring out the transition from Kirk Ferentz to whomever is next.
Guessing that relationship is already frosty having made the HC fire his kid.

2) Figuring our the transition from their maniac Men's basketball coach (Fran McCaffery) to the next coach.
That dude has had a sustained run of mediocrity, his son is transferring out, Iowa State's MBB program is in the Sweet 16, and those March Madness "points" pay a lot more to the school than success on the wrestling mat does.

[AgaveMaria]

Is this enough for him to examine what is actually working and make even small changes?

This is the question I asked.

I am not calling to Fire Tom. I do not hate Iowa wrestling. Was a fan when Danny was the coach and a fan of him on the mat before that - when he was Danny before he maturing and change to Dan. I am a fan of wrestling and see Iowa in a rut.

Dan Gable was "one Way" to many but his way put guys with various talents on the mat on the podium. His "one Way" allowed for different types of wrestlers to do well and he had the ability to push guys to bring out their potential.

Cael is doing this.

Tom is not.

Tom is not a failure nor is Iowa. It is small things keeping them down. Gable teams owned the third period. This is no longer the norm.

Dan Gable benefitted coming into a program on the rise with Gary Kurdelmeier the head coach. Without it I think he would have still been great but it would have taken a few more years to fill out.

Cael is great - but he wasn't great at ISU before the move, was he? Very good but still had to develop and moved to a place he felt would work for him.

I believe Tom has the drive to do it. What we don't know and why I posted initially is WILL he make the small changes to get better results?

 

[Voice of the Quakers]

1 hour ago, AgaveMaria said:

Is this enough for him to examine what is actually working and make even small changes?

This is the question I asked.

I am not calling to Fire Tom. I do not hate Iowa wrestling. Was a fan when Danny was the coach and a fan of him on the mat before that - when he was Danny before he maturing and change to Dan. I am a fan of wrestling and see Iowa in a rut.

Dan Gable was "one Way" to many but his way put guys with various talents on the mat on the podium. His "one Way" allowed for different types of wrestlers to do well and he had the ability to push guys to bring out their potential.

Cael is doing this.

Tom is not.

Tom is not a failure nor is Iowa. It is small things keeping them down. Gable teams owned the third period. This is no longer the norm.

Dan Gable benefitted coming into a program on the rise with Gary Kurdelmeier the head coach. Without it I think he would have still been great but it would have taken a few more years to fill out.

Cael is great - but he wasn't great at ISU before the move, was he? Very good but still had to develop and moved to a place he felt would work for him.

I believe Tom has the drive to do it. What we don't know and why I posted initially is WILL he make the small changes to get better results?

 

I thought the Brands Bros. had made that small change when they brought in Kemdog and the rest of the Key-Hawks. Those kids were different on and off the mat from who had been there before.

Maybe the kids they will keep bringing in via the transfer portal will continue to evolve the Hawkeyes. Maybe, someday, they bring in someone from outside the family to help with coaching. But, the results this year and the recruitment of the Ferraris make me skeptical.

[JimmyBT]

4 hours ago, KLCarnegieTech_1969 said:

Iowa is being passed up by Iowa State, Michigan and Illinois, and Ohio State not to mention Penn State.  These programs have either younger or more dynamic coaching staffs.  Iowa State has Dresser, St. John, Metcalf and Nate Carr.  Illinois had Poeta, Martinez, Delgado, O'Connor and Ed Ruth.  Michigan has Kevin Jackson, Micic, and Churella to help out. Tom Ryan has Steiber, Jaggers and Jordan.  Bourmet is out recruiting Iowa in Chicago and Illinois.  If I am a  blue chip kid Iowa would be the last place I would want to go.  Once the piplines to Iowa from PA and Illinois dry up (which they are) the end is imminent.  

Huh? You drunk ? 

[jmoney]

11 hours ago, Smsu150 said:

That wasn't my question? In your opinion, that is why is is under scrutiny.  I'm asking if there is a coach in another sport with the coaching credentials that Tom Brands has, that has ever been under similar scrutiny.   I said, maybe Saben with Alabama football.  I can't think of any others. 

 

Coach K at Duke?

[Wrestleknownothing]

16 hours ago, Smsu150 said:

That wasn't my question? In your opinion, that is why is is under scrutiny.  I'm asking if there is a coach in another sport with the coaching credentials that Tom Brands has, that has ever been under similar scrutiny.   I said, maybe Saben with Alabama football.  I can't think of any others. 

 

Bobby Knight

Bill Belichick

Tony LaRussa

[fishbane]

17 hours ago, Smsu150 said:

Is there any other sport where a coach has a team consistently in the top 5 of the country yet is under the scrutiny of Tom Brands?  Maybe Alabama football and that's a maybe.  

Maybe not another sport, but in this sport it has happened before - Tommy Chesbro at OSU.  He was there for 15 years had won a single national title early in his tenure and ppl produced a top 5 team every year except 1 where they finished 6th.  That year they still had an individual national champ.  

He was relieved of his position in 1984.  In 1983 OSU won a big 8 title, was runner up to Iowa at NCAAs (102 team points), produced 2 national champs and 6AAs, and had an undefeated dual season 22-0 including a 27-23 win over Iowa.  In 1984 they were just as good.  Runner up at NCAAs (98 team points) to Iowa with 2 national champs and 7 AAs. They won the Big 8 and had another undefeated dual season (19-0) and beat Iowa 24-6 in a dual.  

These outstanding teams were not enough to keep Chesbro out of the hot seat.  There had been rumors since Roderick became AD that he was going to be replaced as OSU had not won a title since 1971.  Here is an article from April 1983 discussing it.  This was after an undefeated season, Big 8 title, runner up finish with 6AAs and 2 NCs.  He was ultimately relieved of his position the following season.

Roderick tried to get Gable to take the position. 

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1984/03/23/paper-says-osu-casting-eye-at-gable/62809463007/

Gable talks about being offered the job in one of the episodes on the Smiths in the wrestling changed my life podcast.  He said he took it to his family and they didn't want to leave Iowa City.  Ultimately Joe Seay was hired.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1984/03/29/chesbro-is-out-osu-hires-seay-to-win-ncaas/62808818007/

I doubt Brands gets the kind of scrutiny from his boss that Roderick was giving Tommy Chesbro, but if he does it is probably because of his athletes getting shot and gambling instead of finishing 2nd at NCAAs.

[juniorvarsity]

So what is the real argument against Tom Brands and this new generation mantra?

Just because PSU is different, does not mean you need to change, however they are not accomplishing their goals and it does seem like their guys plateau before their senior year.

Is the intensity not necessary anymore because skill is so much higher? People just use PSU as the foil to Iowa and point fingers(and I am an Iowa hater) ie: Intensity vs. fun/gratitude. 

[KLCarnegieTech_1969]

What a nice crowd.  No I am not drunk. Mike Tomlin is always under heavy scrutiny in Pittsburgh. He has never had a losing season yet has not won a playoff game in 7 seasons.  He is destined for the HOF but the Yinzer faithful want to run him out of town.  

Edited March 28 by KLCarnegieTech_1969

[Pinnacle]

17 minutes ago, KLCarnegieTech_1969 said:

What a nice crowd.  No I am not drunk. Mike Tomlin is always under heavy scrutiny in Pittsburgh. He has never had a losing season yet has not won a playoff game in 7 seasons.  He is destined for the HOF but the Yinzer faithful want to run him out of town.  

+ for Yinzer faithful!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

19 hours ago, macwoodfleet said:

Illinois is atrocious right now.

And Ed Ruth doesn't coach there.