GOAT Debate

[blueandgold]

When it comes to the world of college wrestling, if you ask who the GOAT is, chances are you’ll hear Cael Sanderson’s name 95% of the time as he was a four-time champion who never lost a match, and that feels like it doesn’t do him justice, because not only did he win, but he dominated nearly every match. 
 

However, as of late, I feel as if Kyle Dake’s feat is equally, if not more impressive when considering what he did and who he did it against. Yes, Dake lost four matches in his career, but he also won a national championship in FOUR different weight classes, and all four of his finals opponents were finalists once more after facing him, three of whom ended up being crowned national champions the next year after facing Dake.

So, if the GOAT debate stops at record, Cael is undisputed. However, all things considered, I think Dake makes a case.

Edited January 19 by blueandgold

[mspart]

Dake does make a strong case.   But I think undefeated is a stronger case.

mspart

[ionel]

9 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

When it comes to the world of college wrestling, if you ask who the GOAT is, chances are you’ll hear Carl Sanderson’s name 95% of the time as he was a four-time champion who never lost a match, and that feels like it doesn’t do him justice, because not only did he win, but he dominated nearly every match. 
 

However, as of late, I feel as if Kyle Dake’s feat is equally, if not more impressive when considering what he did and who he did it against. Yes, Dake lost four matches in his career, but he also won a national championship in FOUR different weight classes, and all four of his finals opponents were finalists once more after facing him, three of whom ended up being crowned national champions the next year after facing Dake.

So, if the GOAT debate stops at record, Cael is undisputed. However, all things considered, I think Dake makes a case.

ahh ... NO

[blueandgold]

3 minutes ago, mspart said:

Dake does make a strong case.   But I think undefeated is a stronger case.

mspart

Yeah, it’s hard to argue with an unbeaten record at the Division I level, but Dake’s feat seems equally as unreal.

[Hammerlock3]

Cael didn't wrestle scrubs either. Eggum was world silver not long after, and couldn't make the finals again cause he wrestled Cael in the semis, vertus jones was a 2 time finalist (once before cael beat him) who gets too little respect cause he got killled both times, and Trenge was a multiple finalist and always one of the first mentioned for best no timer.

[headshuck]

Had Steveson redshirted and not left for WWE many feel he would have had a decent chance at 4 undefeated NCAA seasons and at least 1 Olympic gold. But like Dake’s 4 losses, he had a loss and didn’t finish the opportunity.

[11986]

3 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Cael didn't wrestle scrubs either. Eggum was world silver not long after, and couldn't make the finals again cause he wrestled Cael in the semis, vertus jones was a 2 time finalist (once before cael beat him) who gets too little respect cause he got killled both times, and Trenge was a multiple finalist and always one of the first mentioned for best no timer.

Plus Cormier

[Hammerlock3]

4 minutes ago, 11986 said:

Plus Cormier

mind fart. 

[VakAttack]

There is no legitimate case for Dake, IMO.  Cael won four, undefeated, bonus throughout.  Cael did everything we would ask to be considered the greatest.

Edited January 19 by VakAttack

[Idaho]

4 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

There is no legitimate case for Dake, IMO.  Cael won four, undefeated, bonus throughout.  Cael did everything we would ask to be considered the greatest.

Yep... the end. 

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

There is no legitimate case for Dake, IMO.  Cael won four, undefeated, bonus throughout.  Cael did everything we would ask to be considered the greatest.

Except he didn't win an Olympic or World gold at the same time.

[Hammerlock3]

Another feather in his cap is the way cael wrestled. Dake was capable of boring matches his whole career. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

It's not just that Kale was undefeated and steamrolled a tough field. It's 159 wins. That's a damn big number. And in just 4 years.

By contrast, look at his two currently most accomplished wrestlers. Brooks won't crack 100 wins over 5 seasons and will finish his career with less than two thirds of Kale's win total. And Starocci could come back for a 6th year and run the table but he still won't come close to 159.

159 in 4 is definitely a GOAT number.

[Mike Cruickshank]

44 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

There is no legitimate case for Dake, IMO.  Cael won four, undefeated, bonus throughout.  Cael did everything we would ask to be considered the greatest.

Normally it wouldn't matter, but when you claim there is no legitimate case for Dake, what I am about to say needs to be considered.  Cael wasn't undefeated.  He lost in the 1997-1998 season to the late Paul Jenn during his true freshman (redshirt) year.

Jenn, who I believe was a walk on at Iowa, took 6th at Big 10's in 1998, going 1-3.  He went 2-2 at nationals; getting majored (Aaron Simpson) and teched (Eggum) against the 4th and 5th place finishers.  

This isn't just a technicality; Dake didn't redshirt his true freshman year. Who knows how many other matches Cael would have lost against higher level competition had he competed like Dake. Maybe he would have went on a run and still won nationals; we will never know.  But being undefeated would not be an argument in his favor if he is going to be judged on a similar playing field.  

You can obviously still say that Cael is the best.  I agree with you on Cael being the greatest due to his incredible rate of improvement and high level of bonus against top competition (He teched Paul Jenn just a year later).  Dake wrestled tighter matches against better guys. But to say there is no argument for Dake does not take all the facts into consideration.  

[wrestle87]

1 hour ago, blueandgold said:

but he also won a national championship in FOUR different weight classes, and all four of his finals opponents were finalists once more after facing him, three of whom ended up being crowned national champions the next year after facing Dake.

It is impressive, but he did it at low weights.  I’m not saying anything disparaging about low weights, but the fact that Sanderson did his but whooping all the way up at 184 in his early years is an extra level of more impressive to me.  Those seniors get biiig up there, and he made crowds of grown ass men look like children.

[dragit]

3 hours ago, Mike Cruickshank said:

Normally it wouldn't matter, but when you claim there is no legitimate case for Dake, what I am about to say needs to be considered.  Cael wasn't undefeated.  He lost in the 1997-1998 season to the late Paul Jenn during his true freshman (redshirt) year.

Jenn, who I believe was a walk on at Iowa, took 6th at Big 10's in 1998, going 1-3.  He went 2-2 at nationals; getting majored (Aaron Simpson) and teched (Eggum) against the 4th and 5th place finishers.  

This isn't just a technicality; Dake didn't redshirt his true freshman year. Who knows how many other matches Cael would have lost against higher level competition had he competed like Dake. Maybe he would have went on a run and still won nationals; we will never know.  But being undefeated would not be an argument in his favor if he is going to be judged on a similar playing field.  

You can obviously still say that Cael is the best.  I agree with you on Cael being the greatest due to his incredible rate of improvement and high level of bonus against top competition (He teched Paul Jenn just a year later).  Dake wrestled tighter matches against better guys. But to say there is no argument for Dake does not take all the facts into consideration.  

You hit the key points of my ritual argument for Dake:

1.  No redshirt, no redshirt, no redshirt.  Huge difference.  He won an NCAA championship nine months after he was in high school. How confident is everyone Cael would have done that?

2.  Never really in substantial jeopardy at NCAAs.  And his four wins in the finals were notable.  Marion, who made another final and lost in OT, and who lost a semi on calls so extreme that they contributed to rule changes.  He absolutely brutalized Molinaro, who then became an undefeated national champ.  Then St. John, who won the next year.  And the coup de grace was the great David Taylor, who won the Hodge the year before and the year after.  Kyle Dake, sitting on three titles, went up a weight to where he wasn't even cutting to wrestle the Hodge winner, and beat him three times in a row in three completely different matches.  This is an extraordinary fact.

3.  Not as dominant before NCAAs, but he was putting together a very strong academic record at an Ivy League school and cutting a lot of weight the years he lost matches.  It's reality -- that's a very big impediment that's gonna lead to competing in a lot of matches when you're just exhausted.

I think picking Cael is totally reasonable and defensible.  But I have Dake at least in a tie with him.

[scribers]

Carl lost a match. So not all golden 

[wrestle87]

6 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

Another feather in his cap is the way cael wrestled. Dake was capable of boring matches his whole career. 

Not only was he capable, he regularly delivered.  Dake won and was sometimes dominant, dominance was the assumption for every match with Cael.  He whooped up on cormier by regular standards, but people gave cormier kudos for “keeping it competitive” in their final.

[jackwebster]

2 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

Not only was he capable, he regularly delivered.  Dake won and was sometimes dominant, dominance was the assumption for every match with Cael.  He whooped up on cormier by regular standards, but people gave cormier kudos for “keeping it competitive” in their final.

Word, but do we weigh Cormier's post-NCAA MMA accolades the same as Taylor's World titles?

[Jim L]

11 hours ago, blueandgold said:

When it comes to the world of college wrestling, if you ask who the GOAT is, chances are you’ll hear Cael Sanderson’s name 95% of the time as he was a four-time champion who never lost a match, and that feels like it doesn’t do him justice, because not only did he win, but he dominated nearly every match. 
 

However, as of late, I feel as if Kyle Dake’s feat is equally, if not more impressive when considering what he did and who he did it against. Yes, Dake lost four matches in his career, but he also won a national championship in FOUR different weight classes, and all four of his finals opponents were finalists once more after facing him, three of whom ended up being crowned national champions the next year after facing Dake.

So, if the GOAT debate stops at record, Cael is undisputed. However, all things considered, I think Dake makes a case.

I have posted about this before, but I still don't get why wrestlers are so impressed by the four weight classes in four years. He got bigger and moved up.

Maybe to the general public it sounds like he is taking on all comers, but he never really wrestled up a weight class. He also had a reputation as a big time weight cutter, so he was never wrestling guys that where bigger than him, maybe some years he cut less, but he was never undersized.

When I was growing up and boxing was big, some of the top guys would go up a weight class or two and fight the title holder so they could have multiple belts at the same time. Sugar Ray Leonard famously weighed in fully clothed with rolls of coins in his pockets for his fight with Marvin Hagler. This is not what Dake did.

This does not take way from his amazing career. MY personal rankings of his feats (collegiate editiion):

1. 4X titles

2. Beating an all timer in Taylor 2X

3. Winning as a true freshman

...

99. Got bigger and moved up in weight class (Hell I got him beat by a mile for putting on weight as I got older)

 

 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I'm not a fan of Dake's personality, nor his style (when he chooses to be boring.)

However, he didn't need a redshirt.  Straight into the fire.

[PSULou64]

Someone can check this but I believe two things also to be true with Cael:

1.  He only had to come from behind to win 1 match his entire career. In every other match he had the lead and never looked back.

2.  The opponent who he had to come back and win against became a two time NCAA champion:  Damion Hahn.  The two only had a chance to wrestle 1 time though.

This has been also said but look at his bonus percentage and pinfall percentage.

Dake is a great 4X champion but I have to say he was a notorious rider with often little or no turns to show.  And his stalling against Taylor in the NCAA finals was indicative of his boring style and lack of aggressiveness.  (If that had been a regular season match he would have been hit at least another time for stalling IMO)

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Spencer Lee

Sp

[Idaho]

So in summary.... Carl is the greatest, but Dake has some arguments to be the greatest but falls short. 

 

[ionel]

59 minutes ago, Idaho said:

So in summary.... Carl is the greatest, but Dake has some arguments to be the greatest but falls short. 

 

The AT is all time, you can't be the GOAT until you've beaten the current goat on the mat or via statistics.  Uetake never beaten, never challenged, won Olympic gold while in college so best in the world as well as college.  Cael didn't do that so never trumped The GOAT.  nuff said