Cy-Hawk Thread

[VakAttack]

1 minute ago, wrestle87 said:

What is the rule on determining takedowns on rear standing/go behinds now?

Same as all takedowns: "beyond reaction time".

[dragit]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Not the most convincing argument.

Correct.  

His argument doesn’t really make any sense under the circumstances (incredibly close call based on reaction time that wins the match against number one ranked guy if reversed).  And his sub-argument about the lung break was exactly wrong based on others' immediate and firm reaction. Burroughs very clearly and forcefully said that they should challenge because Echemendia was gassed from the flurry, and Woods obviously saw it too because he shot on the whistle when OT started.  

Combine this with the brain fart at 174 (I can't picture Tom Brands not knowing the score and the riding time of a match in the final seconds, nor do I think he would have failed to challenge at 141 if the roles were reversed) and Coach Orange had a very bad day.  He said in his press conference that everything had gone against them, but they were the ones who screwed up, whereas Iowa lost two AAs and a seasoned starter to the vagaries of the NCAA, made a canny move at 174/184, and got the job done on a day that many thought a torch would be passed.  

[wrestle87]

31 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Same as all takedowns: "beyond reaction time".

Thanks, and woof that’s brutal wording.  I almost feel bad for the refs, they are put in some tough spots having to create and manage expectations for what stalling and reaction time are on their mats.

[gimpeltf]

5 hours ago, jross said:

His hand was down and I think control was arguably there through the sequence as well.  See this photo:

But his hand wasn't down after he got behind. And since there's no more hand down without reaction time tds there was nothing there. If this had been in the center and with time left there's no way they would have called it that fast.

[PSULou64]

Here are a couple of my thoughts:

If this match were at Iowa and Iowa st.  Wrestlers were as "passive" as the Iowa wrestlers.  There would have about 30 stall calls during the match.

A supposed #1/#2 wrestling a mid teen ranked wrestler should be considerably more dominant in their win. That doesn't mean the match can't be close in score but it should never be in doubt.

 Brands talked about going out there and scoring points but maybe he should give that speech to his wrestlers.  You'd think the team would have the same style/aggressiveness as the coach but that is definitely not the case.

The Iowa State coaches did not corner coach well.  Dresser did not utilize the tools available to him to the benefit of his wrestlers.  Whether a challenge is successful or not is sometimes immaterial if it creates other benefit to your guy.

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, PSULou64 said:

Here are a couple of my thoughts:

If this match were at Iowa and Iowa st.  Wrestlers were as "passive" as the Iowa wrestlers.  There would have about 30 stall calls during the match.

A supposed #1/#2 wrestling a mid teen ranked wrestler should be considerably more dominant in their win. That doesn't mean the match can't be close in score but it should never be in doubt.

 Brands talked about going out there and scoring points but maybe he should give that speech to his wrestlers.  You'd think the team would have the same style/aggressiveness as the coach but that is definitely not the case.

The Iowa State coaches did not corner coach well.  Dresser did not utilize the tools available to him to the benefit of his wrestlers.  Whether a challenge is successful or not is sometimes immaterial if it creates other benefit to your guy.

 

You don't think he has mentioned this to them?

[PSULou64]

I'm not saying he hasn't but to me it seems odd that for the emphasis he puts on it how little it translates to his wrestlers doing it. I feel like over the last few years high offense guys like Lee and Desanto are outliers and defensive, low scoring guys like Murin, Brands and Marinelli are the norm.

[JimmyBT]

11 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Sure, could be 30 years, could be 1.

Thx for taking the time to respond then.  

[JimmyBT]

10 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I thought it was reviewed and not overturned bc their bodies obscured the clock in the video.  Am I making that up?

Not overturned is confirmed 

[Dogbone]

Does anyone really think the officials were going to overturn the call at 141?   I understand the argument that Dresser should of challenged, but when has any ref overturned their own 50/50 call. 

 

[nhs67]

14 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

Does anyone really think the officials were going to overturn the call at 141?   I understand the argument that Dresser should of challenged, but when has any ref overturned their own 50/50 call. 

 

Which is precisely why there should be an independent review team.  I understand not doing it for duals, because that is a lot of extra overhead, but for large tournaments.

On the international level you see it.  It keeps refs honest.

Edit: If it is one thing aside for Dresser getting completely outcoached that we all can agree on, I think it is that the refs last night were not honest.  How does Iowa outpace Iowa State in takedowns yet get called twelve times for stalling where Iowa State got zero calls?  Please refer to the Carr-Caliendo match for example.  Caliendo first got called for stalling while he was actively attempting to circle, set up a shot, and shoot... WHILE SHOOTING!

Edited November 27, 2023 by nhs67

[Dogbone]

6 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Which is precisely why there should be an independent review team.  I understand not doing it for duals, because that is a lot of extra overhead, but for large tournaments.

On the international level you see it.  It keeps refs honest.

 

Agree! I'll go a step further and ask is it really unreasonable for duals?  There is a second ref on the mat and I honestly do not what value they actually provide.  Have the 2nd ref be an independent video reviewer.  Almost all duals have a video now.  I get smaller duals may not have enough angles but just use whatever you have and if it is not conclusive, keep the original call.   Better than nothing. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

19 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Which is precisely why there should be an independent review team.  I understand not doing it for duals, because that is a lot of extra overhead, but for large tournaments.

On the international level you see it.  It keeps refs honest.

Edit: If it is one thing aside for Dresser getting completely outcoached that we all can agree on, I think it is that the refs last night were not honest.  How does Iowa outpace Iowa State in takedowns yet get called twelve times for stalling where Iowa State got zero calls?  Please refer to the Carr-Caliendo match for example.  Caliendo first got called for stalling while he was actively attempting to circle, set up a shot, and shoot... WHILE SHOOTING!

I thought some of the stall calls were a bit suspect.

[nhs67]

9 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

Agree! I'll go a step further and ask is it really unreasonable for duals?  There is a second ref on the mat and I honestly do not what value they actually provide.  Have the 2nd ref be an independent video reviewer.  Almost all duals have a video now.  I get smaller duals may not have enough angles but just use whatever you have and if it is not conclusive, keep the original call.   Better than nothing. 

The reasons are overhead.  When I say an independent review team I mean a full set of guys, not just another ref.  If you watch any reviews on the international circuit you see a full three gents looking at the monitor while they do it.

You can't do that at any level aside for the B1G... maybe ACC/B12 as well, but the rest won't have the resources to do it.  The reasoning is that when/if they were to do it, it would need to be done the same way across the board.

[Dogbone]

2 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

The reasons are overhead.  When I say an independent review team I mean a full set of guys, not just another ref.  If you watch any reviews on the international circuit you see a full three gents looking at the monitor while they do it.

You can't do that at any level aside for the B1G... maybe ACC/B12 as well, but the rest won't have the resources to do it.  The reasoning is that when/if they were to do it, it would need to be done the same way across the board.

Duals now have video review so we don't need more cameras, but 3 people sitting somewhere together to review and the ability to communicate with them and stream them the replays. Most venues have internet so my question is what is the actual cost to try and have independent reviews?

Why couldn't the same 3 guys do all of the NCAA D1 duals from an offsite location?  Yes, there would be some overlap but not many reviews happen at the exact same time.  It would also provide some consistency if the same 3 officials (probably more to rotate but still a smaller number) were reviewing most questionable calls.  Would eliminating the 2nd ref offset these cost?   And does it really matter if some schools/conference can't afford to participate in a joint 3rd party review system,  it wouldn't be a competitive disadvantage to the participates any more than someone getting screwed by a bad call now?

To be clear, I agree with your position on independent reviews and I probably don't understand the entire cost necessary, but it seems possible, if there was a real desire to solve the problem. 

 

[ionel]

9 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

Lol did you watch it live? I didn't come up with that on my own.

I watched it delayed but wasn't really listening when they reviewed, figured they had different angles to look at than what Espn showed.  Thus figured you made it up. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

55 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Which is precisely why there should be an independent review team.  I understand not doing it for duals, because that is a lot of extra overhead, but for large tournaments.

On the international level you see it.  It keeps refs honest.

Edit: If it is one thing aside for Dresser getting completely outcoached that we all can agree on, I think it is that the refs last night were not honest.  How does Iowa outpace Iowa State in takedowns yet get called twelve times for stalling where Iowa State got zero calls?  Please refer to the Carr-Caliendo match for example.  Caliendo first got called for stalling while he was actively attempting to circle, set up a shot, and shoot... WHILE SHOOTING!

Other way around. Iowa had 11 TDs to Iowa State's 15.

While I agree that the first Caliendo stall was suspect, I also agree that Iowa was well deserving of their big lead in stalling. Should it have been 11-0? 10-2? Not sure it really matters.

Brands found a way to win when his team averaged 1.2 stalls per match and only 1.1 TDs per match. How often does a team get more stalls than TDs and still win?

Call it a great coaching job by Brands. Call it a poor coaching job by Dresser. Or a little from column A and a little from column B.

[nhs67]

24 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Other way around. Iowa had 11 TDs to Iowa State's 15.

While I agree that the first Caliendo stall was suspect, I also agree that Iowa was well deserving of their big lead in stalling. Should it have been 11-0? 10-2? Not sure it really matters.

Brands found a way to win when his team averaged 1.2 stalls per match and only 1.1 TDs per match. How often does a team get more stalls than TDs and still win?

Call it a great coaching job by Brands. Call it a poor coaching job by Dresser. Or a little from column A and a little from column B.

That is the dicks-licks-aw-yeah for ya.

That said, I think it was that latter part of what you said.  Both, with the note that Tom and Terry beat both Dresser and the Refs.

[nhs67]

35 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

Duals now have video review so we don't need more cameras, but 3 people sitting somewhere together to review and the ability to communicate with them and stream them the replays. Most venues have internet so my question is what is the actual cost to try and have independent reviews?

Why couldn't the same 3 guys do all of the NCAA D1 duals from an offsite location?  Yes, there would be some overlap but not many reviews happen at the exact same time.  It would also provide some consistency if the same 3 officials (probably more to rotate but still a smaller number) were reviewing most questionable calls.  Would eliminating the 2nd ref offset these cost?   And does it really matter if some schools/conference can't afford to participate in a joint 3rd party review system,  it wouldn't be a competitive disadvantage to the participates any more than someone getting screwed by a bad call now?

To be clear, I agree with your position on independent reviews and I probably don't understand the entire cost necessary, but it seems possible, if there was a real desire to solve the problem. 

 

You make excellent points and suggestions.

That said, even with the International events onsite, there are overlap issues that come up.  At one point in Belgrade I believe all three mats were awaiting review and they did it one at a time, so there was a substantial pause in the action.

That is/was an acceptable option for the highest tier of wrestling in the world, so I don't see a reason I should disagree with it on a D1 dual level format.

This becomes an additional accrued cost, though.  Does the NCAA foot the bill?  They already don't like paying moneys.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

26 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Other way around. Iowa had 11 TDs to Iowa State's 15.

While I agree that the first Caliendo stall was suspect, I also agree that Iowa was well deserving of their big lead in stalling. Should it have been 11-0? 10-2? Not sure it really matters.

Brands found a way to win when his team averaged 1.2 stalls per match and only 1.1 TDs per match. How often does a team get more stalls than TDs and still win?

Call it a great coaching job by Brands. Call it a poor coaching job by Dresser. Or a little from column A and a little from column B.

A big part of Iowa States takedown advantage was David Carr and Yonger Batista who wrestled the two more overmatched opponents of the night.  Iowa didn't really face any individuals that they were capable of running up the score on.  Kennedy tried and ended up fading.

[VakAttack]

The other way to look at it is that Iowa got at least 1 takedown in 6 matches, and Iowa State in 5.  Even in the matches where they were outgunned, like 165 and 285, they were still working and taking shots.  Gaitan likely gets teched if Kennedy isn't coming off injury, he's not typically a gasser.  Even at 133, Teske was attacking and taking shots....he's just not that great, especially at 133.

[Wrestleknownothing]

8 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

A big part of Iowa States takedown advantage was David Carr and Yonger Batista who wrestled the two more overmatched opponents of the night.  Iowa didn't really face any individuals that they were capable of running up the score on.  Kennedy tried and ended up fading.

Oh, I get it. But that points to the other issue for me.

I have always been a Real Woods fan, so perhaps that is why I found his match the most disappointing of all the matches. As the #1 ranked wrestler I really expected more than 1-1 at the end of regulation against a guy ranked #19, who has done precisely nothing his whole NCAA career. And that the 1 Woods gave up came from double stalls makes it even more disappointing. By contrast Carr went out and got it against a higher ranked wrestler coming off an AA season. 

So, while a lot of Iowa Sate's TDs came from Carr, a lot of TDs should have come from Woods, but didn't.

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Oh, I get it. But that points to the other issue for me.

I have always been a Real Woods fan, so perhaps that is why I found his match the most disappointing of all the matches. As the #1 ranked wrestler I really expected more than 1-1 at the end of regulation against a guy ranked #19, who has done precisely nothing his whole NCAA career. And that the 1 Woods gave up came from double stalls makes it even more disappointing. By contrast Carr went out and got it against a higher ranked wrestler coming off an AA season. 

So, while a lot of Iowa Sate's TDs came from Carr, a lot of TDs should have come from Woods, but didn't.

me think you often speak with too much reason. 

[nhs67]

26 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

The other way to look at it is that Iowa got at least 1 takedown in 6 matches, and Iowa State in 5.  Even in the matches where they were outgunned, like 165 and 285, they were still working and taking shots.  Gaitan likely gets teched if Kennedy isn't coming off injury, he's not typically a gasser.  Even at 133, Teske was attacking and taking shots....he's just not that great, especially at 133.

I was really hoping to see him and Ayala swap 125/133 this year.

[wrestle87]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

I watched it delayed but wasn't really listening when they reviewed, figured they had different angles to look at than what Espn showed.  Thus figured you made it up. 

I hope they did, they showed the refs watching, when they were reviewing they were watching a playback of the broadcast footage.  We still have a ways to go before wrestling enjoys an NFL-type setup.

One day though hopefully, one day.