Why I think I’ll always prefer folkstyle

[1032004]

I’m sorry, but I don’t see why this should be any points for red.   Other guy gets in on the shot AND finishes on top.  (To be clear, nothing to do with Micic, just the scoring system)

 

[gimpeltf]

Obviously you can prefer what you want. But you're looking at it with a decided folkstyle bent and then deciding that it doesn't make sense because it doesn't follow a folkstyle philosophy.  People in the rest of the world would go nuts if it were scored just 2 for Blue. Folkstyle philosophy wants decided control over a period of time. International styles are more about making the other move the way you want him to move- in particular by exposing his back. Even if only for a split second.

 

[de4856]

Well I am a big fan of the new freestyle rules. More action and quicker tempo. 

[billyhoyle]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t see why this should be any points for red.   Other guy gets in on the shot AND finishes on top.  (To be clear, nothing to do with Micic, just the scoring system)

 

Why does somebody get a point in folkstyle for being let up from bottom? Or for running a spiral ride for a minute straight. Or from fans influencing the ref?

[Caveira]

How is attendance at the world finals?   

[gimpeltf]

The corner video I saw from UWW (I was doing some minor work for Flo) showed pretty much empty. But given the crowd noise between the Serbians, Iranians and Americans they must have been mainly on the other side. The hundred or so I saw couldn't have made that much noise.

Edited September 18, 2023 by gimpeltf

[1032004]

1 hour ago, billyhoyle said:

Why does somebody get a point in folkstyle for being let up from bottom? Or for running a spiral ride for a minute straight. Or from fans influencing the ref?

You get a point for escaping, it’s not your fault if the other guy doesn’t try to stop you.

You shouldn’t get a point for running a spiral ride for a minute straight anymore with the new rules.

Good refs don’t let fans influence them.

I do think freestyle is a good product overall.  But the few things I dislike are pretty big, with this and being able to roll across the mat for a tech in 20 seconds being the other one.

 

[denger]

The rule that I glitch over in the folk-centric sense is the exposure = takedown. 

Starting from neutral and grounded in a scramble, if a wrestler exposes their opponent AND it ends up in a takedown, it's only two. I can't get my head around how getting exposure and control has the same value as either getting a split-second exposure or control. 

As stated, I know it's a folk-centric understanding, but still. Making your opponent vulnerable AND gaining control is harder to do than either making the opponent vulnerable OR gaining control. 

[Caveira]

I don’t hate freestyle.  For the record.  I hate turning a much more popular folkstyle product domestically into one that is inherently less popular.   Bending the rules in folkstyle into something more freestyle over time (imo) will make the sport less popular.  
 

We say things like 

We should change ncaa to free or more like free. …… to make sure we’re more prepared / better on the world stage.   We’re enjoying the best / most competitive us teams maybe ever and over a 5/10 year period if not longer. 
 

to grow the sport?  Into what?  An barely attended world championships.    For what?   Find pics from Fargo.  Wtt.  And even final x…..      

are highlights from this on ESPN? Are NCAAs on ESPN?   Does ESPN even mention this in their daily highlights?  

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

How is attendance at the world finals?   

How is attendance in folkstyle world capital Coralville, IA for the World Cup? thank u next

[billyhoyle]

53 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

You get a point for escaping, it’s not your fault if the other guy doesn’t try to stop you.

You shouldn’t get a point for running a spiral ride for a minute straight anymore with the new rules.

Good refs don’t let fans influence them.

I do think freestyle is a good product overall.  But the few things I dislike are pretty big, with this and being able to roll across the mat for a tech in 20 seconds being the other one.

 

And in freestyle you get points for flipping the other guy over. I agree that folk is more watchable now than it was 10 years ago, but freestyle is still the better product. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 hours ago, Caveira said:

How is attendance at the world finals?   

The lower bowl is segmented. About 1/3 is for general tickets. That part is full. About 1/2 is for more expensive VIP tickets (not advertised anywhere I saw, but for sale at the venue at a table that is hidden below a staircase). That was about 10% full. The rest is behind the video board. A few boxes are occupied, the most vocal one by a group of Iranian fans. And just a smattering of upper bowl.

[1032004]

9 hours ago, denger said:

The rule that I glitch over in the folk-centric sense is the exposure = takedown. 

Starting from neutral and grounded in a scramble, if a wrestler exposes their opponent AND it ends up in a takedown, it's only two. I can't get my head around how getting exposure and control has the same value as either getting a split-second exposure or control. 

Agreed.  Up until this year, you’d also think the other guy should’ve at least also gotten 2 in the clip I posted.  But I guess now NCAA will be similar with reversals being worth less than takedowns…

[KennyEBHS]

I think at the senior level, folk won't work. These guys are so defensively good that getting control would be that much more difficult. I don't think anyone would score. But what is interesting is if you watch Taylor and Retherford, they have incorporated folk positions in free, especially the arm bar and half that Taylor uses to pin.

[denger]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Agreed.  Up until this year, you’d also think the other guy should’ve at least also gotten 2 in the clip I posted.  But I guess now NCAA will be similar with reversals being worth less than takedowns…

I understand the freestyle reasoning to an extent: Exposure is control. Takedown is control. Reversing control is something, but less than initiating control. There's no reward for your opponent losing control (escape). 

What I still don't get is when initiating exposure scores two, and then coming up on top to secure a takedown, it's worth the same as doing either of those things. If you score a takedown, then roll him for exposure, it's 2 + 2. Why isn't it 2 + something when you tip him over, then get a takedown? It's obviously not worth the same as all four fingers, feet-to-back, as criteria works. 

Im fine with exposure having the same point value as a takedown. Where I glitch out is when exposure IS a takedown. I'm looking right at it and named it, it's called control, but I just can't compute how they're the same thing. 

[Caveira]

On 9/17/2023 at 9:33 PM, bnwtwg said:

How is attendance in folkstyle world capital Coralville, IA for the World Cup? thank u next

NCAAs is hugely attended.  Carver psu Ohio state dials are hugely attended.   Illinois state tournament is highly attended.   Ikwf state is highly attended.   
 

world championship attendance?   Fargo? Final x ?    Wtt?   Us open?    
 

I don’t think that argument holds water when there seems to be more evidence fans like folkstyle.    The argument that we are not as prepared for free has been debunked with the performance over the last 10+ years or so as well.   
 

I bet distinct click analytics on a site like flo for various competitions it sponsors would be interesting here. 
 

For the record.  I liked competitions in freestyle.  What I don’t like is the free world trying to turn folkstyle into freestyle. 

[MJD]

My friends and I are fans of wrestling. I wrestled in HS, but they did not. What do we prefer to watch? Freestyle. It has an intensity that is lacking in folk. The bottom game is boring, unless you were a folkstyle wrestler. Yes, college wrestlers are conditioning machines, but technical wrestling is more interesting to fans. The idea of "control" on the bottom in folkstyle isn't really control in a combat sense...nobody in their right mind would face the ground in a combat situation. It's just a thing in folk that is boring, and in freestyle they minimize that. We want to see takedowns and throws. 

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

NCAAs is hugely attended.  Carver psu Ohio state dials are hugely attended.   Illinois state tournament is highly attended.   Ikwf state is highly attended

Kids events usually have a big following, for obvious reasons.

High school is a mix of supporting kids and tribalism based on where you live/went to school.

College is the next step in tribalism, too. People want to identify with institutions. The individual names change, but the constants remain the same.

If the product at all those levels was Freestyle you'd very likely have the same support as American Folk has now.

Freestyle results are increasing due to RTCs and the ability to support yourself via success in the sport, not because American Folk has improved.

[BobDole]

Freestyle is best for the highest level of wrestling. Just getting an exposure can show at least an ounce of difference between two highly skilled athletes. We have all seen extremely boring folkstyle matches between two wrestlers that are evenly matched end in something boring like a few more seconds of riding time.

The freestyle rules allow for more than just control in order to score when you have two skilled wrestlers. The element of exposure forces a wrestler to be aware of their positioning at all times. 

Freestyle being 90% on your feet gives you a lot more opportunity for scores from a variety of positions. 

Both folkstyle and freestyle have their places in America which is great. There are exciting matches and boring matches in each style. There are weird rules in each style also.

[OMW]

On 9/17/2023 at 3:01 PM, 1032004 said:

I’m sorry, but I don’t see why this should be any points for red.   Other guy gets in on the shot AND finishes on top.  (To be clear, nothing to do with Micic, just the scoring system)

 

In a just world (or Worlds  ), that would be 2 and 2.

Blue initiated and ended up on top (almost like he had a takedown...).

Micic did counter and expose, worthy of 2.  But the end result for blue should be 2, not 1 as the existing rules call for.

[BobDole]

15 minutes ago, OMW said:

In a just world (or Worlds  ), that would be 2 and 2.

Blue initiated and ended up on top (almost like he had a takedown...).

Micic did counter and expose, worthy of 2.  But the end result for blue should be 2, not 1 as the existing rules call for.

The refs seemed to give a lot more 4's to the defensive guys in this situation all tournament. Same thing happened for Snyder and I believe I saw it a few other times.

[WrestlingRasta]

5 hours ago, Caveira said:

NCAAs is hugely attended.  Carver psu Ohio state dials are hugely attended.   Illinois state tournament is highly attended.   Ikwf state is highly attended.   
 

world championship attendance?   Fargo? Final x ?    Wtt?   Us open?    
 

I don’t think that argument holds water when there seems to be more evidence fans like folkstyle.    The argument that we are not as prepared for free has been debunked with the performance over the last 10+ years or so as well.   
 

I bet distinct click analytics on a site like flo for various competitions it sponsors would be interesting here. 
 

For the record.  I liked competitions in freestyle.  What I don’t like is the free world trying to turn folkstyle into freestyle. 

If you tied freestyle to schools and universities for the last 100 years, and Olympics was folkstyle, do you think folkstyle would still out attendance free? 
 

The more localized and tied to the community it gets, the more popular and attended it’s going to be. In this subject, the rules have nothing to do with it. Community and culture ties. 

[Gus]

1 hour ago, BobDole said:

Freestyle is best for the highest level of wrestling. Just getting an exposure can show at least an ounce of difference between two highly skilled athletes. We have all seen extremely boring folkstyle matches between two wrestlers that are evenly matched end in something boring like a few more seconds of riding time.

The freestyle rules allow for more than just control in order to score when you have two skilled wrestlers. The element of exposure forces a wrestler to be aware of their positioning at all times. 

Freestyle being 90% on your feet gives you a lot more opportunity for scores from a variety of positions. 

Both folkstyle and freestyle have their places in America which is great. There are exciting matches and boring matches in each style. There are weird rules in each style also.

What if we just eliminated positional choice in folkstyle and every period started on your feet?

[Eagle26]

I’m not sure how to do this but I’d like to post a picture of a guy with like six minutes of riding time and the other guy just flat on his belly. Then I’d say, this is why I’ll always prefer freestyle wrestling :)

[billyhoyle]

1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

I’m not sure how to do this but I’d like to post a picture of a guy with like six minutes of riding time and the other guy just flat on his belly. Then I’d say, this is why I’ll always prefer freestyle wrestling

Edited September 19, 2023 by billyhoyle