US Mount Rushmore Speculation

[Lleynor]

7 hours ago, Ragu said:

Do people have Taylor over Dake? If Taylor is on Dake has to be and I’d bargain that Dake isnt on the mountain yet

From a FS perspective, I can't put Dake above Taylor. That Oly Gold trumps that Bronze. Even if Dake has one more World Gold. 

[WrestlingRasta]

20 hours ago, Lleynor said:

 

Extremely insightful @jchapman! Thanks brother!

This next cycle is going to be interesting. 

Another question. Do we take into account the non-Olympic weights? 61, 70, etc. Winning worlds is great, but those weights just don't seem to resonate the same. 

I don't know if it takes anything away when comparing world championships from the past.  There is a long history of ten weight classes.  

Comparing Olympics on the other hand......

I really think overall you have to give a little more weight to the golds and medals in the post soviet era, before even talking about weight classes.  There's just so many damn Russians in the bracket.

Then you drop down to six weights, making the bracket even more Russian heavy.

Then you add in the new wave of free agency, where, not only do you have the Russian, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, and Belarus in the bracket......but the athletes from France and Arab Emirates are imported Russians. 

It's particularly tough in international wrestling to make good comparisons between eras.  The mount rushmore in my opinion should be categorize your four eras, and who's the goat from each.

[BuckyBadger]

12 hours ago, Lleynor said:

This is where my mindset was, honestly. At one point, the World thought that Yaz and Sadulaev were the two beat walking the planet. Taylor is definitely above one of those. No one is above Sadulaev, IMO.

Is Taylor going to hang around through 2028? He keeps winning Golds and Silvers, he has a big consideration. 

The other thing that is so impressive about what Taylor has accomplished is that he only started his run of World titles when he was 27.

Usually if a guy is on the senior level 4-5 years, you don’t see them jump such levels when they are that old. I’m no PSU or Taylor fanboy, but I don’t think it can be overstated what he’s accomplished at the senior level.

[Lleynor]

12 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

The other thing that is so impressive about what Taylor has accomplished is that he only started his run of World titles when he was 27.

Usually if a guy is on the senior level 4-5 years, you don’t see them jump such levels when they are that old. I’m no PSU or Taylor fanboy, but I don’t think it can be overstated what he’s accomplished at the senior level.

For what it's worth, I am a Taylor fan boy. And Burroughs, and Dake, and Retherford, Steveson, Yianni, Gilman, etc.

 

College Fandom is thrown out the window once at the Senior level. I could care less what college they attended. I want our best 6, or 10 in offseason Olympics, to compete. And I cheer that Red, White, and Blue no matter who wears it. 

[lu1979]

On 5/2/2023 at 11:08 AM, Lleynor said:

If Taylor wins '23 Gold and '24 Olympics, is he on it? Also, what 4 sit at the top for us currently? Love insightful opinions.

I would say the 1st 3 spots are J Smith JB and Big Bruce - As for the last spot DT would have a pretty good claim if he won gold in 23 & 24. That would give him 2 Olympic Golds, 3 World Golds and a W Silver.  However his claim might get murky depending on what Snyder and Dake do in 23 & 24.  If Snyder were to win both I would put him ahead of Taylor (especially if were to beat Sadulaev doing it) If Dake were to win both it would be a close call. 

[jchapman]

39 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

I would say the 1st 3 spots are J Smith JB and Big Bruce - As for the last spot DT would have a pretty good claim if he won gold in 23 & 24. That would give him 2 Olympic Golds, 3 World Golds and a W Silver.  However his claim might get murky depending on what Snyder and Dake do in 23 & 24.  If Snyder were to win both I would put him ahead of Taylor (especially if were to beat Sadulaev doing it) If Dake were to win both it would be a close call. 

Snyder wouldn't even need to win anything in 23 to beat Taylor (assuming Gold in 24 for Kyle and Golds in both 23 and 24 for Taylor).  The hypothetical resumes would be:

Snyder: 2X Olympic Gold, 1X Olympic Silver, 3X World Gold, 2X World Silver, 1X World Bronze

Taylor:  2X Olympic Gold, 3 X World Gold, 1 X World Silver

[bnwtwg]

5 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

The other thing that is so impressive about what Taylor has accomplished is that he only started his run of World titles when he was 27.

Usually if a guy is on the senior level 4-5 years, you don’t see them jump such levels when they are that old. I’m no PSU or Taylor fanboy, but I don’t think it can be overstated what he’s accomplished at the senior level.

Taylor didn’t jump levels as much as he avoided competition. He was always great but he was never the best in the US.

Couldn’t beat JB, Taylor ditched 74

Couldn’t beat Cox, Cox went up giving Taylor the spot.

Beats the rest of the world.

For USA fans it’s a great problem to have. For Taylor it will gnaw at him the rest of his decorated life.

[mspart]

8 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Taylor didn’t jump levels as much as he avoided competition. He was always great but he was never the best in the US.

Couldn’t beat JB, Taylor ditched 74

Couldn’t beat Cox, Cox went up giving Taylor the spot.

Beats the rest of the world.

For USA fans it’s a great problem to have. For Taylor it will gnaw at him the rest of his decorated life.

He was never the best in the US?   That is a pretty bold statement.   He is the best at 84kg right now.  In the US and the World.  

So what you are saying is that he is less of a world and Olympic champion as Burroughs and Cox.   An interesting conundrum.  Let's keep in mind that Cox did not win a WC until he went to 92Kg, a non-olymipic weight.  Yes that was a gift to Taylor and it looks like now he has taken full advantage.  I don't think anything will gnaw at him.  Why would it?  He has proven himself to be the best in the world at 84KG.   He grew into his frame and is now at his ideal weight.  I have no doubt that the current Taylor would beat the then Cox at 84KG. 

Cox never won a WC or Oly at 84kg.   Taylor has done both.   The fact that Taylor couldn't beat Cox back then has no bearing on his success now. 

Or maybe you are hoping it gnaws at him.   That would be a completely different story. 

mspart

[BuckyBadger]

14 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Taylor didn’t jump levels as much as he avoided competition. He was always great but he was never the best in the US.

Couldn’t beat JB, Taylor ditched 74

Couldn’t beat Cox, Cox went up giving Taylor the spot.

Beats the rest of the world.

For USA fans it’s a great problem to have. For Taylor it will gnaw at him the rest of his decorated life.

Bumping up to then have to face Yazdani is hardly avoiding competition. 
Given his accomplishments since then I seriously doubt any domestic losses are gnawing at him.

[Ragu]

10 hours ago, Lleynor said:

From a FS perspective, I can't put Dake above Taylor. That Oly Gold trumps that Bronze. Even if Dake has one more World Gold. 

Dake is undefeated against Taylor across all styles 

[Ragu]

Also why are we making an olympic gold so much better than world gold? Less weights? 

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

He was never the best in the US?   That is a pretty bold statement.   He is the best at 84kg right now.  In the US and the World.  

So what you are saying is that he is less of a world and Olympic champion as Burroughs and Cox.   An interesting conundrum.  Let's keep in mind that Cox did not win a WC until he went to 92Kg, a non-olymipic weight.  Yes that was a gift to Taylor and it looks like now he has taken full advantage.  I don't think anything will gnaw at him.  Why would it?  He has proven himself to be the best in the world at 84KG.   He grew into his frame and is now at his ideal weight.  I have no doubt that the current Taylor would beat the then Cox at 84KG. 

Cox never won a WC or Oly at 84kg.   Taylor has done both.   The fact that Taylor couldn't beat Cox back then has no bearing on his success now. 

Or maybe you are hoping it gnaws at him.   That would be a completely different story. 

mspart

I respect your opinion and I also agree that Taylor is now, without any shadow of a doubt, the best 86 in the world. I also acknowledge that Taylor was the behind the #1 pfp king, the same as I do for Snyder now. He was also behind Dake. Again, a world champion 3x over. Neither is a slight against Taylor. He also lost out on a spot to Cox not just once but twice. Cox was "only" (semantics because god knows I could never sniff a world medalist's...) a 2x bronze at 86 before Cox moved up to become a 2x world champ at 92 and Taylor ascended. Does he lose sleep? No. Does it gnaw away? Yep. Does it motivate? You betcha.

[BuckyBadger]

16 minutes ago, Ragu said:

Also why are we making an olympic gold so much better than world gold? Less weights? 

Because it is that much better.

[bnwtwg]

15 minutes ago, BuckyBadger said:

Because it is that much better.

False. It is an arbitrary achievement.

10 medals versus 6 minimized weight classes?

An athlete is lesser if they peak in the wrong 12 month period of an every-fourth-year cycle?

The olympics are a machination that somehow supersedes a "standard" world title because NBC says so and the current example with extremely limited participation is a brutal bastardization of our sport.

[BuckyBadger]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

False. It is an arbitrary achievement.

10 medals versus 6 minimized weight classes?

An athlete is lesser if they peak in the wrong 12 month period of an every-fourth-year cycle?

The olympics are a machination that somehow supersedes a "standard" world title because NBC says so and the current example with extremely limited participation is a brutal bastardization of our sport.

There might an aspect of media prestige, but the Olympics is also held in higher regard by the wrestlers themselves. The year after the Olympics is consistently missing top guys who put everything into the Olympics and take the next year or two off before they prepare for the next cycle.

Plus, basically anyone can enter the World Championships, the Olympics are tough to qualify for.

I don’t discount the accomplishment of a world title, but it’s not the same as the Olympics.

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, Ragu said:

Also why are we making an olympic gold so much better than world gold? Less weights? 

I always found this a stretch, too.

[mspart]

Dake - 2 WC gold at 79Kg (a non olympic weight), 2 WC gold at 74Kg (an Olympic Weight), 1 Oly Bronze at 74kg.

Cox - 1 Oly Bronze at 86Kg (an Olympic Weight obviously), 1 WC Bronze at 86kg, 2 WC gold at 92Kg (a non Olympic weight), 1 WC Silver at 92 Kg, 1WC bronze at 92kg. 

Taylor - 1 Oly Gold at 86Kg (an olympic weight), 2 gold at 86Kg, 1 WC silver at 86Kg.  

If we look at just olympic weights it looks like this:

Dake - 2 WC gold at 74Kg (an Olympic Weight), 1 Oly Bronze at 74kg.

Cox - 1 Oly Bronze at 86Kg (an Olympic Weight obviously), 1 WC Bronze at 86kg. 

Taylor - 1 Oly Gold at 86Kg (an olympic weight), 2 gold at 86Kg, 1 WC silver at 86Kg.  

Or another way to look at olympic weight accolades:

Dake 2 gold, 1 Bronze

Cox - 2 Bronze

Taylor - 3 Gold, 1 silver

I'm not saying Taylor is better, but he has been more successful at Olympic weights than the other two.   For Dake it was because he was fighting Burroughs all the time.   For Cox, because he moved up in weight by choice.  

This is a silly argument to have, all three are monsters along with Burroughs and Snyder.   I don't think we have had a team with so many hammers on it. 

mspart

 

[bnwtwg]

What if the Olympic weights were, idk, 92 and 125?

where does that leave Cox, Taylor, and Snyder?

[de4856]

So reading the comments about David Taylor, I just had a thought, what if Taylor wasn’t at his peak at these lower weights early on. I know that he was extremely good, but maybe he was a late bloomer so to speak, and it took him several years to mature and fill out his frame, to become what he is now. Also add in the number of years that he has been training at NLWC, and David has become the best in the world at his weight. 

[headshuck]

Maybe we could carve up a totem pole and put Taylor on top with outstretched arms

[RYou]

Two pages and nary mention of the rising Gable Steveson.  He' potentially has a world gold and another Oly gold in his immediate future. Will that be enough to place him as low man on that totem pole holding up the other 3?

Edited May 4, 2023 by RYou

[headshuck]

Have you forgotten? Only Taylor wins hypothetical future matches.

[bdhof]

IMO Mt Rushmore looks like JB, Smith, Bruce & Snyder. Obviously, this could change as time goes on. But Dake and Taylor are both getting long in the tooth (32) to catch the top four. I'm not saying it can't happen, and I hope it does b/c that's good news for USA wrestling. And Snyder is still writing his resume. He has Sad in his way, but I don't discount his ability to beat him, altho he is the underdog. Cox is young enough (28) to make a run but he has Snyder and Sad in his way at 97kg. And he moved up to 97 for a reason. 92 was too much of a cut for him. Maybe a loss to Snyder this year will force him back to 92 where he'll continue to rack up medals. And Steveson hasn't accomplished enough to be in the conversation. Hopefully, he will. 

And OLY vs World medals are overvalued IMO. As stated before, Smith and Bruce competed in the 10 wt class era. Is a wrestler's ability to be a world champ only significant every 4 years? I would argue "no." And is a 20 lb gap (w/ 6 wts) way too much to determine the best wreslters in the world? I would argue "yes."

Edited May 4, 2023 by bdhof

[Plasmodium]

I don't think the 10 weight class detail is pertinent to Hwt.  Olympic medals should carry more weight because the athletes value them more.

[PNWfan]

If Steveson wins World's in 2023 and Olympics in 2024, he belongs on Rushmore. Look at who he beat in the Olympics and the age he did it. Plus, the eye test shows he is one of the most dominant HWT's the world has ever seen. I doubt he will hang around long enough to build up an international resume comparable to the like of Smith, Baumgartner, Taylor, Dake, etc., but that should not restrict him from being placed among the greats of all time.