Where Does Lee Rank?

[ionel]

He is certainly behind all the 3x undefeated NCs and then there's the 3x NC's with fewer losses better placing in the non champion year list.   Its a long enough list to not worry where he ranks.  But he is perhaps still #1 on the Jimmy goat list. 

[Jamie_Taco]

Just now, Perry said:

There is no guarantee Lee would have won it during the covid year, even if he was the front runner in the bracket.

I am curious who you think was going to beat him that weekend. If there was ever a guaranteed year for Spencer Lee, it was 2020. There is no argument that this season was when we saw the best Spencer Lee.

Who do you think is beating him that year from this bracket? And how confident are you in that pick?

[Jamie_Taco]

4 minutes ago, ionel said:

He is certainly behind all the 3x undefeated NCs and then there's the 3x NC's with fewer losses better placing in the non champion year list.   Its a long enough list to not worry where he ranks.  But he is perhaps still #1 on the Jimmy goat list. 

What a dumb way to look at all-time rankings. I guess by this criteria, David Taylor is behind T.J. Williams (98-1) on the list of best 2xers, but we all know that's not true lol.

[Barracuda141]

1 minute ago, Jamie_Taco said:

So you have him behind every single PSU 3xer? L.. O... L

Spencer has two Hodges, a Sullivain Award, and had one of the most dominant careers we have ever seen. Putting him behind half the guys on your list just shows what little you know about the sport of wrestling. Also, take COVID away and Spencer's career is over in 2021 with 4 titles. Nobody was hit worse by the shutdown than Spencer Lee.

Your recency bias is hilarious. Spencer Lee career record is 98-6. Who are you putting him ahead of on that list? Who from PSU would you put behind him? Ed Ruth went 136-3 with 105 bonus point wins in his career? Zain Retherford that went 128-4 and had a bonus rate around 85% his last 3 years? Jason Nolf who went 118-3 and averaged 80+% bonus? How about Bo Nickal who went 120-3 who averaged over 80% bonus his last 3 years? He's literally behind all of the PSU guys. Brooks and Starocci are going to win their 4th next year so he'll definitely be behind them.. 

Who else are you putting above him from my list? He's got almost double the losses of everybody else and nowhere near the wins. Do you think Snyder? A guy who won an Olympic gold and weighed 230lbs wrestling heavyweight beating Adam Coon? No way. No way he had a better career than Greg Jones. Joe Williams? Nope. Maybe you have an argument with Dieringer but that's it. Also, how many times did these guys get pinned? 

[Perry]

24 minutes ago, Jamie_Taco said:

I am curious who you think was going to beat him that weekend. If there was ever a guaranteed year for Spencer Lee, it was 2020. There is no argument that this season was when we saw the best Spencer Lee.

Who do you think is beating him that year from this bracket? And how confident are you in that pick?

I wouldn't favor him but glory had a chance.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

18 minutes ago, Barracuda141 said:

Your recency bias is hilarious. Spencer Lee career record is 98-6. Who are you putting him ahead of on that list? Who from PSU would you put behind him? Ed Ruth went 136-3 with 105 bonus point wins in his career? Zain Retherford that went 128-4 and had a bonus rate around 85% his last 3 years? Jason Nolf who went 118-3 and averaged 80+% bonus? How about Bo Nickal who went 120-3 who averaged over 80% bonus his last 3 years? He's literally behind all of the PSU guys. Brooks and Starocci are going to win their 4th next year so he'll definitely be behind them.. 

Who else are you putting above him from my list? He's got almost double the losses of everybody else and nowhere near the wins. Do you think Snyder? A guy who won an Olympic gold and weighed 230lbs wrestling heavyweight beating Adam Coon? No way. No way he had a better career than Greg Jones. Joe Williams? Nope. Maybe you have an argument with Dieringer but that's it. Also, how many times did these guys get pinned? 

I agree to a point.  How many of those guys you mentioned took a redshirt or greyshirt?  Just curious.

I know Joe Williams didn't redshirt.  Amazingly, Lee has better placements than Joe Williams and likely more bonus wins.

[11986]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I agree to a point.  How many of those guys you mentioned took a redshirt or greyshirt?  Just curious.

I know Joe Williams didn't redshirt.  Amazingly, Lee has better placements than Joe Williams and likely more bonus wins.

Joe wrestled as a true freshman, but then redshirted before winning his 3. 

[JeanGuy]

Lee was a very dominant 125 lber. I personally don't know how you rank guys versus others. Many Penn State Fans don't even have Ruth in their top 5. They rank Taylor over him.

We will always see greats come and go. The idea that there will never be someone as dominant as Spencer Lee just doesn't hold water.

He is in a group that is as good as you can imagine with a lot of other guys.

[peanut]

If we’re going by placements, Lee’s ranking is pretty formulaic—although I’d add that it’s only fair to group him with people who had the opportunity to compete in four post-seasons, and exclude him from the group that was limited to three post-seasons.

If we’re adding a subjective element to Lee’s ranking, it’s impossible to say. Wrestling has evolved over time, and people are only able to watch so many wrestlers.

I think these ranking conversations often explicitly draw on statistics, while implicitly drawing on an athlete’s ability to inspire. If Lee wins world-level hardware, I think it would only bolster his ability to inspire. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by peanut

[PortaJohn]

3 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:

Lee was a very dominant 125 lber. I personally don't know how you rank guys versus others. Many Penn State Fans don't even have Ruth in their top 5. They rank Taylor over him.

We will always see greats come and go. The idea that there will never be someone as dominant as Spencer Lee just doesn't hold water.

He is in a group that is as good as you can imagine with a lot of other guys.

Great point about PSU fans ranking Taylor over Ruth.  It's impossible to accurately rank any "greatest of all time"

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

13 minutes ago, 11986 said:

Joe wrestled as a true freshman, but then redshirted before winning his 3. 

Thanks.  Remembered the true freshman year (7th), forgot about the redshirt after.  Kinda a Zain thing, too.

[BigRedFan]

2 hours ago, Dogbone said:

WHAT?!? Spencer wasn't undefeated. OMG this changes everything. 

I said what I said and answered the question the OP asked.  If you want to rank him differently or provide your own opinion, feel free.   I won't lose sleep if you don't think Spencer is one of the best.  

It's like I kicked your dog or something.  And don't deflect onto what I think.  This is about *you*.

A simple answer might have been "Those losses don't affect my perception of Spencer Lee's greatness."  You might then proceed to explain *why*.

But, hey...

[BigRedFan]

1 hour ago, Jamie_Taco said:

So you have him behind every single PSU 3xer? L.. O... L

Spencer has two Hodges, a Sullivain Award, and had one of the most dominant careers we have ever seen. Putting him behind half the guys on your list just shows what little you know about the sport of wrestling. Also, take COVID away and Spencer's career is over in 2021 with 4 titles. Nobody was hit worse by the shutdown than Spencer Lee.

In other words, "if things had been different, things would have been different."  Excellent.

And Chaz Tucker would like a word.

[VakAttack]

Higher than he "should" for Iowa fans, lower than he "should" for Iowa haters.  I use the quotations because it's an inherently subjective exercise.  Where I think he ranks is likely different than where many people think he ranks.  What do you value?  When did he compete during your life?  These things will all cause people to move him up and down in the rankings.

[ionel]

He lost his last 3 matches, that right there puts him behind Gable in my book and then you have the other ... 

[VakAttack]

3 minutes ago, ionel said:

He lost his last 3 matches, that right there puts him behind Gable in my book and then you have the other ... 

This is, of course, incorrect.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

No one loses in an individual forfeit.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

He lost his last contested match, and was too injured to compete in his last 2 matches. 

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

He lost his last contested match, and was too injured to compete in his last 2 matches. 

and what was the "injury?"  

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, ionel said:

and what was the "injury?"  

a lower body injury

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, ionel said:

and what was the "injury?"  

“I didn’t want to tell anyone because F excuses,” Lee said after his final match when he revealed what he had to go through to win. “Excuses are for wusses. That was a tough tournament for me. I could barely wrestle. I could barely shoot. I can’t sprawl. I believed in my coaching staff and everyone that believed in me and here I am so here you guys go.”

I don't think most of the haters, such as Lionel, really understand the context behind the "wusses" comment.  Lee probably only addressed it because Brands told him to post-match.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

a lower body injury

Little toe? 

So in other words you don't know that he was injured any more than any other wrestler who lost (or won) thus your statement is, of course, incorrect.

[Offthemat]

He and Suriano avoided each other.  

[Dogbone]

1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

Where I think he ranks is likely different than where many people think he ranks.  What do you value?  When did he compete during your life?  These things will all cause people to move him up and down in the rankings.

Umm, this is the internet.   This kind of reason and logic are not looked kindly around these parts. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

People get too quantitative with these GOAT rankings. Numbers are important but so is context. A win is not a win when comparing records. Sure there others with more wins but whenever Spencer won, it was very often an absolute manhandling. Pinning and teching so many opponents in the 1st period has to count for something. So should his leadership on the team and the excitement he brought to CHA and the sport itself. Those cannot be measured, but should be considered.

But on the other hand.... I will say that a lot of the rankings and "best ever" talk these days should come with an asterisk, Spencer included. The bonus Covid year has thrown a wrench into the parity of college wrestling. There are more older wrestlers than ever competing with incoming kids who are much younger and less physically developed. That might partly explain why the NCAA finishers looked the way they did. A lot of the guys on the podium would've been gone by now if it wasn't for the freebie season.