scourge165

Lucas Byrd? Can I ask why HE is catching strays? I like Byrd(and...I have no good reason, I said it at the start of the season, I was rooting for him)? Just a weird guy to start taking shots at. This is 'she was mine first,' situation or...?

Yeah, I AM a huge Kyle Snyder fan, but whatever advantage he had in quickness and foot speed(IF he had one) Gable more than makes up for with the 40-50 pounds...and I'm not sure Stevenson doesn't have quicker feet.

That's fair... I can't speak about Pat Smith as I didn't see him. I can look back at what...Kemp did(that referees decision from a 4X NC) and Banach, Mcllravy(If I ranked the 4X Champs and included Lincoln, he wouldn't be last in my book). Uetake and those guys, it's a different sport almost. You can say Uetake is the best ever and be right, but he basically wrestled a different sport...but absolutely deserves to be recognized as an All-Time Great. So I'm just going with the Cael on forward guys. I would put Cael first, I think Brooks is my #2. I think winning it at those weights is just a little tougher as a Freshmen than at '33/'41. That's splitting hairs. The Starocci issue is..it's just illogical to me. Dake seems to be so far ahead and Starocci gets knocked down and I just don't get it. And then people try and tweak it. Use the same W/L for everyone and Starr is 98-2 and on his way to being 102-2 with losses to Kemerer and then his first duel, someone he's beaten numerous times since(Yianni gets points for that from the Cornell crowd). We go back and guess how he'd have done as a Freshmen. I think we've seen he tends to come out with the W in the NCAAs. So for me it's 1-Cael, 2-Brooks, 3/4-Dake/Starocci, 5/6-Stieber and Yianni are tough to separate. But as I said before, I would probably have some 3X Champs(maybe even 2X Champs) who I'd have ahead of a few 4X Champs. I just find the lack of respect for Starocci...silly. And I'm NOT a PSU fan. I'm just a fan in general. I'd pay money to see an Askren vs Starocci match though. That'd be...interesting.

It almost seems MORE geared toward Starocci than anyone else IMO... They just didn't. The NCAA didn't count RS Freshmen records and they didn't count MFFs...until they did. That is why Cael is an undefeated 4X Champ.

Yeah, I'm really not. I just think there is a TON of hypocrisy on this board. His nickname is "CStall" and he gets crushed for...winning pretty much the same way that Dake won. TD and riding people out and not giving anything up. He beat Taylor 3-2 and 5-4 and someone said he "absolutely dominated" him. Starocci beats 4X AAs and NCs doing the same and it's someone a check against him. Taylor had been outstanding. And Shane Griffith was undefeated going into the NCAAs in 2020, won it the following year. Was a runner up to O'Toole, losing a 6-5 match and his last year lost to Staroci. Lewis was a champ, would have been a multiple time champ if not for Starocci. You're talking about how impressive an All-Star Matchup is. I think Maple's credentials vs Keckisen's are relevant. Ok...Stieber also took a loss his SR year to a Freshmen. There are a check's for each...yet somehow Starocci is the least impressive... Yeah...that was interesting. It doesn't really move the needle for me much though. Just because the Starocci-Keck match was going to happen(probably) at the NCAAs anyway...I don't think it makes it less impressive he took the challenge. Ok...1-I really thought a "chalk" against you was meant to be a check so I just ignored the first several times, but...ok, we'll go with chalk. When did he even have the chance to Wrestle Ferrari? Ferrari wouldn't even Wrestle Stephen Little. You're acting like Starocci ducked Ferrari. There are a lot of bad reasons...this may be the worst. Starroci never asked him to Wrestle at 184...and it's funny that Ferrari just missed weight vs every good opponent but making weight the rest of the time.

He beat him 3-2 and 5-4... Yeah, just

Riiiight...would have been hard for Kemerer to win it that year as it WASN'T WRESTLED, though he WAS the highest seeded Wrestler in that tournament who didn't wrestle for Penn State. But alright. The Line of Demarcation is True Freshmen or not So Group A-Smith, Dake, Yiannis Group B-Cael, Stieber, Brooks(though, he was the #2 seed and didn't get a chance) and Starocci I don't think that's a very good line, but sure. If that's the standard, we'll go by that standard. Not...'he tweeted mean things to poor AJ Ferrari.' I'll be honest, I think I'll likely end up putting multiple Wrestlers without 4 Titles(but from the era you could wrestle 4 years) in my top 10 and ahead of some 4X Champs, but now that the list is trimmed to Smith(who did end up taking a RS), Dake and Yianni(who was out for 2 years) how does the order go?

Kendrick Maple didn't AA as a True Freshmen. Maple took a 4th after a RS(this is the year there was the controversial call with Oliver and Stieber). Maple then won it at 141 Finally, he took an 8th at 149. So Maple NQ/4th/1st/8th, Keckiesen 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st I think beating Keckeisen was more impressive than Maple at the All-Star Duel. I don't know how the Ferrari back and forth online plays into this. They both ran their mouths, but I think we're getting closer to the real reason for the lack of respect for Starocci. People just don't like him. That's fine. The comments about winning the UFC because a D2 Wrestler was the current champ and something about how that's "beginners stuff," was obnoxious. Ferrari ducked everyone all season long suggests to me that match wasn't happening anyway, but with as confident as he was, why not take the offer? He wanted no part of Starocci. So...I do't think the All-Star Classic is a chack against Starr. I think Keckiesen benefits from Wrestling him a first time moreso than Starocci.

Nobody has to "give" him anything...he beat Kemerer the next year. The #1 Wrestler at his weight was his practice partner. He took a 3rd and a 4th before 2019 injury and then 2020 and a 2nd and a 4th after with a loss to Starocci in in the finals and then a loss to Hidlay in the quarters who then lost to Starocci 10-3 in the Semis. I'm not assuming anything. You can only go by what they did. Dake knew he was wrestling that year and he jumped levels that off-season(as Koll and Grey spoke about)... If you're deducting points for RS vs True Freshmen, you're doing so with Cael and...Stieber, Brooks, Starocci and then Smith, Yianni, Smith winning it along with Dake. But again, Cael had a NC ahead of him(I'm assuming he's at 177 and not 184 as his True Fresh year was when they changed the rules) as well. It's impossible to know...but you can make an educated guess.

Parker Keckisen isn't exactly a slouch. He's a 2X Champ if not for Brooks. He's been stuck in a loaded weight class with a Hidlay, a Olympic Bronze in Amine and Brooks. I'm not sure that's a whole lot different than Dake-Taylor when Dake won it(and you can't count future performance, so if Ferrari, Welsh and McEnelly end up winning 7 titles combined it's immaterial...unless one comes this year from McEenally of course! And Banach lost to one of the Schultz brothers(Mark moving up to 177). I really don't see much of a different from Starocci moving up to 184 and Dake to 165. Dake was going to Wrestle 163 at the next level(he'd already wrestled it). Well...my guess is if Dake had a guy who'd gone 1/2/2/(likely 1) in front of him, he'd have taken a greyshirt. He was a 19 year old when he won his title. Starocci had just turned 20. But if you're going by NC beat, he beat David Taylor. Taylor had won 1 NC. Did Dake beat any other NCs? Starocci has beaten 4 I believe? Griffith, Lewis, Keckiesen and....maybe that was it or maybe I'm forgetting someone. Quite a few guys who were dominant and had several top 5 finishes. But you sound like you're describing Starocci. Hasn't lost a match since he lost to Kemerer in the B1Gs and his only other loss was his first duel vs Donnell Washington. He's been pretty much just a flat-out winner the last 4 years as well...including on a bad knee last year in a loaded weight where he had the tough draw... Dake lost to Reece Humphrey, Zach Bailey, Donnie Vinson and Kevin LeValley as a Soph. https://444wrestling.com/kyle-dakes-college-wrestling-career-results/ https://www.wrestlestat.com/wrestler/56712/foca-chris/profile#google_vignette I would not argue Dake is "right up there," what I would disagree is that Starocci isn't.

Yeah, but then you look at Mekhi Lewis and Starocci. Both had pretty significant injuries. Starr was able to fight through it and win a title. Exactly. It's just...strange to me. For all intents and purposes, he's 98-2 in his career, 4X Champ, losses his first duel meet as a Freshmen and then in the B1Gs to Kemerer who was top 4, 4 Times. Lewis was Lewis was top 4 4X with a NC and the #1 seed when HE was injured...otherwise he's likely a champ. Shane Griffith was undefeated in 2020 and then went 1, 2, 5, 3 Hayden Hidlay, another guy he stopped. 2, 4, 3, 5. Foca, Labriola...what do you want from the guy? I'm not seeing the distinguishing traits that Smith, Stieber, Brooks, Dake or Yianni had over him. -Edit-I agree though, I don't think people appreciate his greatness. I'm not all that invested in "ranking" them...though I'd have Cael and Brooks at #1 and #2 if I'm leaving Starocci out of it. Maybe Smith for being the first. It's REALLY thin margins, but how they finish their careers is important so Stieber and Yianni both took losses. Cael dominated all the way through. Dake beating Taylor puts him above the bottom, but I'm not sure how far up.

Lets use the same criteria for Starocci that the others had. That's 2 losses. He moves up to...98-2. So then he's behind I believe just Cael and maybe Yianni. He also wrestled 5 years of a B10 schedule. I think he deserves a little credit for that. I don't know what "top Quartile count" means though.

Yeah, he took a RS because Mark Hall was still at '74 and the strong favorite to win it. The 4 different weights doesn't do much for me and all the things Starocci gets nailed for, Dake did. Close matches...I'm actually curious what each bonus rate was(Dake's in particular). They both have 4 losses with two of them being MFF for Star which wouldn't have counted for Dake. And obviously Starocci had a free covid year or he'd be done. But Cael took a RS. I don't see people hold that against him.

My guess is he probably goes 177 with those rules and he's Wrestling Mitch Clark(if he can make it that far)... Guessing who wins that is next to impossible.

I'm not trying to take ANYTHING away from Dake. I'm just pointing out...I feel like one gets a pass for a conservative style of wrestling and the other gets crushed for it... This match here is a great example. He gives up the only TD. He's in a 3 point stance for much of it. I don't know why Humphrey cuts him with ~14 seconds left in the period, but he doesn't really put up a fight, just lets him go. And Dake wins a 3-2 match. He did it as a Freshmen, 4 Titles, it all speaks for itself, but with Starocci, he majors everyone this year and then Ferrari Wrestlers in a similar style, losses 3-1 and you have people starting threads about how this is why they're "pre-emptively" pointing this out to keep him off the "Mt Rushmore" of College Wrestling.

Wrestling couldn't have done anything about it, right? Meaning they couldn't come out and say whoever lost a year and a chance to wrestle in March had one more year of eligibility? So many of those matches would have been great to see. Nick Lee...who has kinda cemented himself as one of the best Wrestlers of the last 20 years while Pletcher who came in one year earlier, is more of a what-if. That has to just drive you nuts. Last match he wrestled, Pletcher beat Lee 6-5 so...that would have been a great NCAA Tournament.

I mean, he did take a couple 4ths and qualified as a Freshmen. I feel bad he didn't get a chance to go back at Lee again and just finish his career the right way, but do you think wrestling '33 hurt him the prior 3 years?

Yup. Obviously if I started at 125 with Lee as my pick, I wasn't going off JUST Seniors...right?

As good as Mesenbrink is, I'd guess it's fair to assume he can big Brother him yet. They also shouldn't really be Wrestling each other, but if they do... I could also see him and Brooks Wrestling for an hour and nobody getting a TD. Their defense is soo good and Brooks best shot is off a re-shot. And again, I still just don't see how people can say this year doesn't count. We've seen SO many great Wrestlers not make it through a year. Just in the 2020 thread, Spencer Lee was the clear favorite that year. May have been his easiest bracket. That would have been 4. He ends up losing 2 years later to Ramos. Not to mention, if he losses...in what could be HIS toughest bracket, he'll be moved down below all the 4X Champs most likely. Keck, McEnelly, Plott...most years it'd probably be a 3 way race between McEnelly, Barr, Welsh, maybe 4 way if Ferrari is Wrestling. I think when we look back at who he has beaten in 3 years, it'll look that much more impressive.

I don't get why he's behind Dake. Cael is obvious. Brooks...Sure. But is it just that Dake did it at 4 weights?

125-Spencer Lee wins it and he's now on the list of all-time greats instead of a source of revenue for Lens Crafters and a triggering topic for...Calveria or whatever. 133-This is a 3 way between RBY getting his first, Sebastian Rivera winning a title and Seth Gross getting his 2nd. SeeBass is the sentimental pick for me. 141-Pletcher, Lee or Real Woods...My pick is Pletcher 149-Lugo or Kolodzik IMO. `157-If Deakin wins this year I think he's a 3X Champ. He was just SO tight at the Nationals and looked so...afraid to lose(and still won a one). Maybe if he wins early. David Carr...he ended up being solid. Hidlay, Monday... I think it'd have been Hidlay though. 165-Joseph 174-Hall(though...there was a Valencia in there). 184-Aaron Brooks 197-Moore HWT-Gable

I picked him just because...Mendez did him so dirty last year. I've seen SO many non-Wrestling fans use the Gif of him...at his lowest...just sitting there...in agony. It'd be nice to see him win a title if for no other reason than that.

That's...just amazing. It almost feels like this should be separated into 3 eras. 1-The pre Club wrestling era when people would often start wrestling in HS or JHS. Speaking of which...Dan Gable, has he been mentioned? This guys are going to have a different credentials and it's harder the further away you get from it. But take Lee Kemp. I thought he went out something like 11-8 his first year as he'd just started as a Freshmen after getting cut from the Basketball team. He finished his last two years in Ohio, went undefeated and was one of just 3 or 4 guys to beat the top Russians Jr National team. Team USA went 4-76, Kemp was one of the 4 who won a match. Gable went undefeated. The State certainly matters. I'm sure there were others who were better but those are the guys who's names live in lore and I don't know the others who may have been great and whose HS careers aren't foot notes in their prestigious careers at College and the Sr level. 2-The Club era. This seems like it started in the 1980s, goes through roughly 2000 Guys like TJ Hill from Mizzouri were 7X Fargo Champs in 10 trips. That's all 5 times, 4 at the Junior Nationals or Garrett Lowney won 6 or 7 Junior National Titles...IIRC. Cael was in this era. And there were only 10 weights if memory serves. You'd go from off the top of my head, lightest weight(IDR) 113, 121, 132, 143, 154, 167.5, 185, 197 and HWT 3-Current era, specialization Guys are getting better coaching, starting earlier, working with College Wrestlers, competing with and beating the top College Studs. So when you're making a list...if you're just going to talk about who has beaten more NCAA Champs in HS, you're going to be pretty heavily skewed to...the very recent past. But when I'm looking at it, it's the best relative to their peers...at least in my opinion. The most dominant relative to their competition. I'll take the kid from Ohio who as a Freshmen at 171 Wrestled and beat(handily) the best in the Country, but I won't argue AGAINST Blaze. That's also what i meant by I don't like arguing against others. Another name I'd add to this list on top of this would be Logan Storley...but I don't remember his dominance quite as closely. I'm also factoring in Freestyle less than Folkstyle(though...juuust slightly).

I think it's backed up by his accomplishments and I don't need to take shots at how old Bo Bassett is or undercut other athletes. I think the dominance that he showed at 171, dominating the top Wrestlers in the Country as a FRESHMEN at 171. And yes, I said it's the best HIGH School Wrestler as I'm not considering College career afterwards or anything else other than JUST his college career. I also said I thought Kolat was the BEST College Wrestler. But how may NCAA Champs did he beat in HS? Does he get taken off the list?

I think this is what another poster was talking about. How a non-Wrestling fan listened to him and loved him. Just that first shot that Strickenberger takes on Spratley...he's excited, but he's explaining pretty well to the fans what's going on, why they're not out of bonds, what he has to do...'grab his ankle like a baseball bat and pull him back to the center." I can see why you like that if you don't know Wrestling.