scourge165

I can't for the life of me understand how you're NOT putting Gable over Snyder(I can, I just want to pretend like this is such a big gap that I need to exaggerate it). Gable may not have Snyder's quickness(but it's not that big of a gap) but he's got 40 pound on him. NOBODY is questioning this if Gable doesn't have one of the biggest upsets of all-time(maybe the biggest upset) this year. Then he'd just have lost to Cessar as a Freshmen and rolled the next 3 years beating some...big time studs. And while Snyder did the same...he did it at a much lighter weight though...obviously same weight class.

Are you just going off this thread or elsewhere? I hope that's not true. The lungs can be very resilient.... but a guy like him with a gas tank like it was plugged right into the Alaskan pipeline, that'd HAVE to be frustrating.

Yeah...no, I think that's a fine idea. I remember when my Cousin entered a women's Wrestling event like 20 years ago there were only about 40 in the whole state. Now, we know it's significantly more popular.

I don't think that's a stupid idea at all. I think it's still too small of a number to have any meaningful number or worth the expense to have a 3rd division...BUT, sure. I'd be for that. I do tend to believe(despite studies that disprove this to be fair) there's a bit of a social contagion right now. There's always been trans people. I believe that, I believe they "have the right to exist," which what you always hear. That's all they're asking for. I'm also a big dubious that we've seen a 6 fold increase in the number of people who are truly trans in a decade, but maybe that's just because it's such a foreign concept to me. But sure, what the hell. A 3rd division would make it by far the easiest and fairest. So maybe that's as equitable as we can make it. That would solve your inclusivity. You'd have all types of issues with Trans-men taking testosterone and trans-women taking HRT and whatever, but...it'd be easier.

I mean, I'm just going off the studies I've seen. Mostly conducted by the military. There's a sizeable gap 2 years in. There are some area's in which the difference is less significant, but it's still there. This is what I'm going off of. To me the biggest difference is... DSD is not a choice. Transitioning is. I don't mean to sound cruel, but life isn't always fair. If additional testing comes out and it says after 10 years of transitioning...there's no difference physically, then my opinion will change with additional information... which should be the default, the problem is just as you have a few posts up, someone "said '8 pages in but only one SIDE is overblowing the issue." If you're coming in with a "side" already, you're not likely to change your opinion. Yes, I think it was incredibly unfair how she was treated and...there's not much more to say about that...and again, the fact that people ONLY talk about one of the two athletes tells me something. It wasn't just about DSD. I'd say the standard there should be normal testing levels. If you're DSD and you have...say internal testes, then you need to take something to get your Testosterone down to normal levels(for elite level athletes). I think I'd pointed this out before, but people born DSD is 1 in 20,000. Among Olympic level athletes, it's about 1 in 100. So that'd be me initial take. You have to test within these limits, but I'm hardly an authority.

I would hope, but I'm entirely unqualified to answer that. It could be that, it could be that it's more serious and you want him nearer to Family and Friends. If what the post from the AWA athlete is true, it could be both. He's stable enough, but he's in rough shape. I'm just going to choose to not believe anything I don't hear from a reputable source and try and be positive. Even people who may be...put off by his brash personality have to see what he's done for the kids he coaches and what he brings to the sport. He's made the sport better and I've never heard a kid who Wrestles for him say anything but positive things about him. His entire ideology is good for the sport. The lack of cutting weight, the emphasis on having fun...we all credit PSU with doing that, Askren did some goofy stuff in HS. Leap frog when warming up with all the guys in the finals(or a lot of them, I don't remember). I think he carried a brief case and a chicken around(A stuffed Chicken). I think the Briefcase meant he was there to "take care of business," and the Chicken...I don't know. He's just unique. I think he had several guys from AWA at 165 the last couple years like...O'Toole, Mesenbrink, Scoles(he's a stud), Mulvanney(not spelling that right, but ANOTHER Hartland kid). Not sure if the Bianchi brothers wrestled at AWA, but this is just ONE weight class. I saw how the Robbie Lawler fight went. I wouldn't count him out. The only thing I can say with any confidence is he's not gonna tap and he's gonna keep on fighting.

Edit-After listening to what Cormier said, he's not downplaying it, I just read it that way. He says back home in Wisconsin. That's accurate. I should have listened before posting. Nothing misleading at all(which is why I deleted that). My bad.

They're literal gangster's involved. They've bribed people, fixed fights...they're corrupt as hell. You think they care about being held "liable" in international court? And they could have just released the testing results. I don't care about the IBA. And again, I find it confusing that with all this prior knowledge of Khelif, we ONLY talked about her, the boxer who comes from the Country it's literally illegal to be transgender.

But we do have a LOT of research into this. We know how when you're born biologically male and you go through puberty and you transition, you have greater bone density, more muscle mass, you have a stronger cardiovascular system, lungs meaning more endurance, speed. The difference between Men and Women is...pretty well documented, even after years of HRT. DSD...I am too ignorant to speak on with any authority. I see it as being inherently unfair to just ban women for being born with DSD and insofar as I'm aware, Imane Khelif tested inside normal parameters for women in the latest Olympics...as did Yu-Ting(who....oddly hasn't been brought up, but she won a Gold as well).

Sure. People started talking about it when the Italian Fight quit in the first Rd of the Olympic. That's when people started talking about it. Unless you mean literally anyone in which case...I'm sure some people were. I would bet money nobody on this forum brought either her nor the other boxer with DSD up prior to these Olympics... and I'd bet nobody recalls the other boxers name...which is why I'm skeptical of the "people were saying," claim from before the Olympics. And to be clear, in American nomenclature, I take "people were talking about," to mean...it was a widespread controversy in this case or just point of discussion in other cases. "People were talking about Spencer Lee's knee before the NCAAs." Lots of people were aware and talking about that issue. I don't believe a lot of people were talking about two boxers who hadn't won a World and hadn't medaled in the Olympics prior to this past Olympics. And the reason I believe that...we're STILL only talking about the one of them. The one who lost her first match at the World Championships her first time there. The one who is SO overpowering that the Italian had to quit immediately...but in ~50 career bouts she had 6 KOs? I'm...a bit skeptical of that claim.

1-I agree, it's... VERY confusing to me. I would hate to be the person to make the decision about a Caster Semenya or the handful of athletes who...present as women, are raised as women and then they have this little biological abnormality and they're treated...just brutally. 2-The laws that were being talked about, namely the one in on Ohio is...so over the top and easily abused, I can't believe it was passed by the Ohio State Congress(of course the last minute, attached to another bill). 3-I do feel differently on the topic of trans athletes. We already have the science in on that. It's not the same. Transitioning to become a different sex, that's going to come with I guess some positives for the person and some negatives and the negative is just going to have to be that trans-women...do not get to compete in High School or College(I'd add pro athletics, but at that point, I guess let the league decide). But we know the bone density, the muscle mass...that's where I differ. DSD is different, it's nuanced and I don't pretend to have the information to make an informed declaration of what is fair and what isn't... but I THINK I do when it comes to a trans-women. Lia Thomas wouldn't be able to compete with women now. I think that's the right decision. If you're a great athlete and you're just competing because you love the sport... do it in Men's swimming. That's an area where I don't prioritize the feelings of the few over what I think is fair for everyone. It sucks, but I think it sucks more for the women who would have been a National Champion or All American if not for Thomas, who was a mediocre Male Swimmer two years(not even). I also don't think it's fair to the teams in Minnesota. Any baseball fan knows how important starting pitching is. You have an ace, you are in every game. Imagine being able to pitch Randy Johnson 5 straight games in Gm7 of the NLCS and then the next 4 games of the World Series? That's what happened in Minnesota. A Trans pitcher was just able to pitch 5 straight games. She put up an INCREDIBLE line of 35 innings pitched, just 1 earned run, stellar ERA (~0.20), 27 strikeouts That's where I just don't think it's a...pretty easy line to cut off. I don't know if people remember John McEnroe talking about Serena Williams being the greatest WOMEN'S Tennis player of all-time and people complaining he had to qualify it. Well...Williams herself said she'd lose 6-0, 6-0 in two sets in about 10 minutes to Andy Roderick. We are built differently and I don't think you can off-set that. I also get how people will say there are always people who are built differently. So that's where I'd make the cut...were it up to me...and then allow for science of sports to determine how to address people born with DSD.

Yes, and...if you know about the IBA, you know the IOC cut ties with them due to their corruption well before that; The IBA was a corrupt, Russian based..."Agency" by this point that had committed extortion, gambling, fixing fights and ties to organized crime(so said the United States Treasury in 2019). I BELIEVE all they did was test the fights testosterone levels and then extrapolate from there.

Yeah, it's not that hard to understand other cultures. They rape little boys there when there aren't women around or...just as a form of humiliation. American Slave owners used to do that in the United States. They'd take the biggest slave, tie him up and rape him in front of everyone else...just to take that fight out of him. Yet...somehow they weren't viewed as homosexuals. Maybe you could make an ATTEMPT to understand those cultures. The lack of a prosecution and ignoring is a BIG different than taking a person who you KNOW is part of the LGBT community and putting them on the WORLD STAGE so as they can represent you're Nation. Do ya think Afghanistan would do that with a gay man? Maybe lets not conflate only SOMETIMES putting the people we're talking about to DEATH with making a point to elevate them to the World Stage while they wear your Countries Flag. Sorry if that went over your head.

No, she was not. She was NEVER banned by the IOC...at any point. At least that I'm aware of. But you're claiming you and others talking about this were aware of the situation before the Olympics, so if you could show me when the IOC banned her, I'd be very interested in reading that.

No, I don't see that happening on a thread like this... I'm sorry, what were you saying about nonsensical arguments making it impossible to respond to? Lets compare the veracity of Pashtun Men abusing younger Boys and a Country that has laws against Trans people having a Trans-women Represent them on the World Stage at the Olympics? And you thought this would become a topic about whataboutism to rationalize any argument!

I don't think anyone said you "can't ask what's fair." I think that's EXACTLY what we're talking about and may be more useful without the morons like Scout(who just happens to have the PERFECT personal anecdote from last night...while this topic was going by the way) just yelling over the conversation by calling her a man. I have no clue what's "fair" for people like that. I think in order to be qualified to answer that question, you'd have to have a MUCH better understanding of this topic than I have. I know it can't just be 'they're stronger.' Most great athletes are born physically superior. I can say if you're born male, you can't compete in the women's events. That it as far as I'm confident in commenting insofar as what I know or believe to be "fair." At least fair to the most number of people. I'm also incredibly skeptical that anyone on here was talking about an average Albanian fighter BEFORE the Olympics.

What MORE would you like me to say about Lia Thomas that I haven't made...ABUNDANTLY clear regarding my opinion on here? Never said 'Yeah but it's only one race.' Didn't say 'yeah, but it's rare.'

I'm just tired of Gaines and her grifting. I mean, good for her, she's turned tying for 5th place and getting mailed the medal and making a couple million dollars a year to just say the SAME things over and over and go on bad debate shows. I'm not even sure what we're talking about at this point. Are we talking about the nuance of women who may be DSD or have higher levels of T(which is not that for elite women athletes). Or "someone that was a dude last week, competing against the women this week has nothing to do with any person?" Either way...enough of Riley Gaines. We can have his discussion without Gaines.

Did someone say the first? Because she ONLY finished behind Girls. If you say so...

Oh stop Tripnsweep. Scouts/Jimmy understand how open minded those theocratic Muslim Nations are. Haven't you seen the Iranian Drag Queen parades! They also have to either be the same person or share a singular brain cell. This VERY topic stupid. I reacted to the girl from California who won some CIF sectionals and was called trans and I was wrong and admitted I was wrong. You just post under your two accounts, repeat yourself on each and then post 4-5-6 times in a row and say nothing. Maybe you'll link something to Twitter. That's about it.

You realize THIS isn't the "unique example," right? It's the trans athletes in sports that is FAR more rare. It ABSOLUTELY does make this complicated and you have to be obtuse to not understand this. 1 in 20,000 people are born with DSD Roughly 1 in 100 Female Olympic Athletes are born with some form of DSD. YOU'RE ignoring the complexity of this issue because you want it to be this simple. I agree. No biological Men in Women's sports. You still have people calling the Algerian boxer a Male. People want to make this as simple as you're making it...it's not. It's just not about trans athletes.

Yeah....I get it. I was mocking Scouts "If you say so" comment. He really isn't curious about anything ever. Or won't say he's wrong. You think you'd read that and rather than say "If you say so," use that prodigious googling ability. Or common sense.

I guess I'd always thought the Lia Thomas examples were obvious. This is a more complicated issue than I'd looked into. Some controversies were just insane like the Ohio bill that ended up not passing after a lot of objection where if an opposing parent or coach questioned the gender of an athlete, they needed to have an inspection. The Algerian Boxer... But then I feel like Fallon Fox and... again, Lia Thomas was kinda the catalyst. Riley Gaines has made a career out of this. DSD just makes this whole thing... far muddier. It's a little easier to see why it's not just "common sense" now.

It sounds like you're asking him, telling him...and then answering him all in one post Jimmy.

He doesn't know. He's clueless. I'm pretty sure he's just Jimmy posting under another handle. "If you say so." Yes...you're making the laws for a Muslim Country on Women transitioning to Men... if YOU say so!