Looks like we have a new winner for dirtiest wrestler

[Le duke]

Tanner Cook, Kamdyn Munro, Tyler Lillard, Matt Lee.

Those are people I know he's tried to hurt.

Looks like he was DQd at the Cougar Clash last year, too. Not sure of those particular circumstances, though.

[Caveira]

There are 50 million posts about how the brands bros are the second coming of atilla the hun….. how did this guy get DQ’ed 5/6 times and fly under the radar?   Puts certain things in perspective.     Has it always been the same coach????

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

This is very true, but it is getting to the point that coach Nickerson can be argued to be complicit in contributing to the creation of a dangerous wrestling environment by continuing to put that guy out there.  

Wrestling is about scoring points, and wrestlers position themselves to that end.  This obviously leaves joints open to aggressive il-intentioned manipulation.  This wrestler has clearly studied where these opportunities are, joint locks are not hard to research nowadays, and is happy to go to that playing field whenever he likes.  At any moment a collar tie can become a punch, a front headlock can become a guillotine, a short offense underhook can become a kimura. 

By continuing to put this wrestler on the mat northern colorado is destroying the agreement and trust which underpins a wrestling match.  The kid knee-bared an unsuspecting opponent.  That move can destroy legs and destroy lives.

If I were a college coach I would keep northern colorado at arms length.

For the most part its honesty through paranoia or mutually assured destruction. If everyone went about it this way no one would survive or have many working limbs.

I see where you're coming from and keeping someone on the mat that seems to have had no consequences for, what seems like, repeated rule breaking with intent to harm could and maybe should bounce back on the coach. At the very least could keep him from being offered a better job somewhere else. Not that ADs regularly surf these message boards looking for hot goss. But if something like this was brought to my attention as someone on a hiring committee, I'd need a really good answer from that coach as to how they handled that situation. What they did wrong, if anything, and how they will keep it from happening again. 

Just keep in mind. This is or was a kid we're talking about. Some grace should be offered to them before outright condemnation. Like I mentioned before, perhaps there are underlying reasons for these outbursts that they are just not equipped to handle. If he can't see it then it is the responsibility of those around him; coaches, trainers, counselors of each stripe to step in and address the behavior with any and all methods. 

[1032004]

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

There are 50 million posts about how the brands bros are the second coming of atilla the hun….. how did this guy get DQ’ed 5/6 times and fly under the radar?   Puts certain things in perspective.     Has it always been the same coach????

This thread was started last season.  The first 2 or so may have flown under the radar, but that was about it.

[billyhoyle]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

For the most part its honesty through paranoia or mutually assured destruction. If everyone went about it this way no one would survive or have many working limbs.

I see where you're coming from and keeping someone on the mat that seems to have had no consequences for, what seems like, repeated rule breaking with intent to harm could and maybe should bounce back on the coach. At the very least could keep him from being offered a better job somewhere else. Not that ADs regularly surf these message boards looking for hot goss. But if something like this was brought to my attention as someone on a hiring committee, I'd need a really good answer from that coach as to how they handled that situation. What they did wrong, if anything, and how they will keep it from happening again. 

Just keep in mind. This is or was a kid we're talking about. Some grace should be offered to them before outright condemnation. Like I mentioned before, perhaps there are underlying reasons for these outbursts that they are just not equipped to handle. If he can't see it then it is the responsibility of those around him; coaches, trainers, counselors of each stripe to step in and address the behavior with any and all methods. 

At what age and after how many warnings is somebody no longer considered a kid and allowed to be held accountable for his actions?

[flyingcement]

4 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

At what age and after how many warnings is somebody no longer considered a kid and allowed to be held accountable for his actions?

This is his fifth year of college - putting him somewhere around 23 years old.  There are people who have served as soldiers for five years at that point.  He's old enough to know the difference.  

[wrestle87]

47 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Just keep in mind. This is or was a kid we're talking about. Some grace should be offered to them before outright condemnation. Like I mentioned before, perhaps there are underlying reasons for these outbursts that they are just not equipped to handle. If he can't see it then it is the responsibility of those around him; coaches, trainers, counselors of each stripe to step in and address the behavior with any and all methods. 

I agree with you that this young man needs guidance, I draw the line for grace when his behavior is actively physically harming innocent bystanders (his opponents). This also isn’t high school, this is a D1 program, and we are talking about an athlete in his 20’s. 

I agree he needs help, but you lose the ability to be “given another chance” when you regularly maim others by intentionally leaving the established rules of competition. 

Obviously the coaches are trying to give him a lot of chances, but at a certain point you also have to have standards, bc its disrespectful to and dangerous for all the other athletes who aren’t throwing haymaker knee bars on single legs. 

Grace is good, and I support it, but it doesn’t have to and shouldn’t come at the expense of others.

[dragit]

On 1/30/2023 at 10:54 PM, dragit said:

First of all, he didn't use the word, I did.  Second of all, this is just an absurd post. 

For the third of fourth time:  He shouldn't be on a college wrestling mat.  I have no view at all regarding him as a college student or a functioning member of society.  As far as wrestling goes, the strong word I used befits the extraordinary, extreme, and indefensible conduct in question which has happened on multiple occasions.  You in many, unending posts since my question, regarding whether you're comfortable with him wrestling other college students, have continued to duck this simple question, refusing to say "yes," and essentially confirming my use of the word even as you ridicule it.

This was one of my posts from a year ago, for which I was pilloried. The word in question IIRC was "irredeemable."

That this would happen again was a 100% sure thing.  Only surprise is that it took this long.

The coach and athletic director are responsible for the injuries caused by their wrestler. They, not him, are ultimately at fault.  He clearly can't help himself from doing this when he wrestles.  I don't know why and I don't care.  For all I know he may be a good guy and a solid and productive citizen off the mat.  It's quite possible he honestly doesn't understand that what he does is at all problematic.  But it doesn't matter, and the problem hasn't been with him since the second incident; its the university's decision to continue to put him on the mat which is wholly indefensible. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

42 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

At what age and after how many warnings is somebody no longer considered a kid and allowed to be held accountable for his actions?

Case by case basis

[ThreePointTakedown]

35 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

I agree with you that this young man needs guidance, I draw the line for grace when his behavior is actively physically harming innocent bystanders (his opponents). This also isn’t high school, this is a D1 program, and we are talking about an athlete in his 20’s. 

I agree he needs help, but you lose the ability to be “given another chance” when you regularly maim others by intentionally leaving the established rules of competition. 

Obviously the coaches are trying to give him a lot of chances, but at a certain point you also have to have standards, bc its disrespectful to and dangerous for all the other athletes who aren’t throwing haymaker knee bars on single legs. 

Grace is good, and I support it, but it doesn’t have to and shouldn’t come at the expense of others.

Grace almost always comes at the expense of others. 

20's or no he is obviously not in control of his emotions. Had something like this been on line a few years ago, it may have prevented a lehigh athlete from missing the national tournament after being kneed in the head.

Hate that it had to come to this but someone should've gotten in front of this. Parents can be emotionally blind to negative aspects of a child's behavior. Seeing it as a reflection of them or their parenting, we can rationalize it away as a single occurrence. When in fact it has become a pattern we are unwilling to admit to. 

Like I said, tricky situation. I don't envy anyone in the position of having to address it by enacting policy or administering sanctions. We should learn from this be more open to holding and being held accountable when those under our supervision start to act out in such a way. 

We can do it. Kumbaya! Namaste! 

[nhs67]

So now that DeSanto and Fernandes are no longer on any collegiate wrestling roster... who takes the cake now?

With all due respects, I do hope that Fernandes gets the help he needs and doesn't just end up at some NAIA school looking for a natty next season and that if he does get some sort of suspension that whatever NAIA program he (might) does end up at honors the NCAA suspension.

Not sure what ramifications there actually will be.  If none, there is nothing stopping him from transferring out right now.

[1032004]

46 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

So now that DeSanto and Fernandes are no longer on any collegiate wrestling roster... who takes the cake now?

With all due respects, I do hope that Fernandes gets the help he needs and doesn't just end up at some NAIA school looking for a natty next season and that if he does get some sort of suspension that whatever NAIA program he (might) does end up at honors the NCAA suspension.

Not sure what ramifications there actually will be.  If none, there is nothing stopping him from transferring out right now.

IIRC DeSanto’s wrestling wasn’t really dirty at Iowa.  Most of his “incidents” were after the match.

Before I knew who Fernandes was I probably would’ve said Thomas Penola of Purdue who seemed to have a thing for headbutts and IIRC gave Hillger a concussion.  But looks like he got injured last year and hasn’t been back, I assume graduated and moved on.

From this weekend’s matches I might nominate Richie Koehler of Rider.  He was throwing some haymakers against Shawver.  He even did the shake your hand apology thing after he was penalized for one but then did it again right after.

Edited January 8 by 1032004

[nhs67]

21 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

IIRC DeSanto’s wrestling wasn’t really dirty at Iowa.  Most of his “incidents” were after the match.

Before I knew who Fernandes was I probably would’ve said Thomas Penola of Purdue who seemed to have a thing for headbutts and IIRC gave Hillger a concussion.  But looks like he got injured last year and hasn’t been back, I assume graduated and moved on.

From this weekend’s matches I might nominate Richie Koehler of Rider.  He was throwing some haymakers against Shawver.  He even did the shake your hand apology thing after he was penalized for one but then did it again right after.

Their 125lber was also quit chirpy towards Peterson as well.

[ThreePointTakedown]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

So now that DeSanto and Fernandes are no longer on any collegiate wrestling roster... who takes the cake now?

With all due respects, I do hope that Fernandes gets the help he needs and doesn't just end up at some NAIA school looking for a natty next season and that if he does get some sort of suspension that whatever NAIA program he (might) does end up at honors the NCAA suspension.

Not sure what ramifications there actually will be.  If none, there is nothing stopping him from transferring out right now.

Or... and hear me out... we don't talk about it in a public forum. We can just take it straight to the coach or AD via email. Letting them know your concern(with any video evidence you've accumulated) and that an athlete of theirs is garnering attention for a reason that might be embarrassing for the school and the program. If things have not grown to a fever pitch it would be nice to give them an opportunity to address the issue quietly. Probably better for the athlete too. 

Follow up question: is a suspension an adequate punishment? Would that fact that he now has to live with this the rest of his career/life, enough? Any coach that takes him on, I imagine/hope, will be aware of his past. 

[Idaho]

10 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Or... and hear me out... we don't talk about it in a public forum. We can just take it straight to the coach or AD via email. Letting them know your concern(with any video evidence you've accumulated) and that an athlete of theirs is garnering attention for a reason that might be embarrassing for the school and the program. If things have not grown to a fever pitch it would be nice to give them an opportunity to address the issue quietly. Probably better for the athlete too. 

Follow up question: is a suspension an adequate punishment? Would that fact that he now has to live with this the rest of his career/life, enough? Any coach that takes him on, I imagine/hope, will be aware of his past. 

So you advocate not talking about it in a public forum.... then ask questions to talk about it in a public forum.... Did miss something? 

You have good intentions.... but I'm pretty sure that by the time you email the coach with video they are probably in themselves, that the issue has already garnered attention. 

Edited January 8 by Idaho

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

1.  It's against my constitution to say anything praiseworthy of Indiana, but Lillard's mom was a kick-ass action figure in this fiasco. Not overblown, not understated, just perfect. 

2. Penola. If he comes back, I will return to Penola Watch. He went against joints a couple of times against ILLINI wrestlers. 

3. This is where I again piss off PSU fans: In a dual at Champaign, Eric Barone had the grave duty of facing off against Jason Nolf. Barone was a very good defensive wrestler. Nolf was the ultimate offensive wrestler in college. In the first period, Nolf latched onto a leg a couple of times. Barone did his patented splits. That frustrated Nolf. Third time, Nolf went for a joint. That's the only time I saw him do it, but I still dislike him as a wrestler. 

4. Frustration may be the root cause for many of these instances. On the other hand, when one wrestler does a club to the head, and the second wrestler responds, there's probably more revenge than frustration involved. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

So you advocate not talking about it in a public forum.... then ask questions to talk about it in a public forum.... Did miss something? 

I'm pretty sure that by the time you email the coach with video they are probably in themselves, that the issue has already garnered attention. 

Interesting take. But my comment was about future athletes that might find their way on a forum for similar reasons. If that was confusing to you, I apologies.

If you want to break the news of a kid being a kid or a dog biting man, there is nothing I can do to stop you. What you get out of pointing a microscope at a kid, I don't know if I'll ever understand. My questions were about the current situation that has already been thoroughly spoken of in public. It seemed as if there is no additional harm to consider cutting the kid some slack. 

Thanks for the attempted 'dunk' though. Are you satisfied with my responses?  

[Wrestleknownothing]

31 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

1.  It's against my constitution to say anything praiseworthy of Indiana, but Lillard's mom was a kick-ass action figure in this fiasco. Not overblown, not understated, just perfect. 

2. Penola. If he comes back, I will return to Penola Watch. He went against joints a couple of times against ILLINI wrestlers. 

3. This is where I again piss off PSU fans: In a dual at Champaign, Eric Barone had the grave duty of facing off against Jason Nolf. Barone was a very good defensive wrestler. Nolf was the ultimate offensive wrestler in college. In the first period, Nolf latched onto a leg a couple of times. Barone did his patented splits. That frustrated Nolf. Third time, Nolf went for a joint. That's the only time I saw him do it, but I still dislike him as a wrestler. 

4. Frustration may be the root cause for many of these instances. On the other hand, when one wrestler does a club to the head, and the second wrestler responds, there's probably more revenge than frustration involved. 

That is not even remotely close to accurate. Barone rolled his left ankle when Nolf attacked his right leg. Barone just got his toe caught in the mat.

 

[ThreePointTakedown]

35 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

1.  It's against my constitution to say anything praiseworthy of Indiana, but Lillard's mom was a kick-ass action figure in this fiasco. Not overblown, not understated, just perfect. 

2. Penola. If he comes back, I will return to Penola Watch. He went against joints a couple of times against ILLINI wrestlers. 

3. This is where I again piss off PSU fans: In a dual at Champaign, Eric Barone had the grave duty of facing off against Jason Nolf. Barone was a very good defensive wrestler. Nolf was the ultimate offensive wrestler in college. In the first period, Nolf latched onto a leg a couple of times. Barone did his patented splits. That frustrated Nolf. Third time, Nolf went for a joint. That's the only time I saw him do it, but I still dislike him as a wrestler. 

4. Frustration may be the root cause for many of these instances. On the other hand, when one wrestler does a club to the head, and the second wrestler responds, there's probably more revenge than frustration involved. 

This is disappointing. No surprising. Just... yeah. 

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

25 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

That is not even remotely close to accurate. Barone rolled his left ankle when Nolf attacked his right leg. Barone just got his toe caught in the mat.

 

You didn't watch long enough. Start about 8:50. Look for Nolf's hand grabbing the toes. That is illegal because it puts undue pressure on a joint.

Nolf was frustrated. Barone injury defaulted.

[Le duke]

1.  It's against my constitution to say anything praiseworthy of Indiana, but Lillard's mom was a kick-ass action figure in this fiasco. Not overblown, not understated, just perfect. 
2. Penola. If he comes back, I will return to Penola Watch. He went against joints a couple of times against ILLINI wrestlers. 
3. This is where I again piss off PSU fans: In a dual at Champaign, Eric Barone had the grave duty of facing off against Jason Nolf. Barone was a very good defensive wrestler. Nolf was the ultimate offensive wrestler in college. In the first period, Nolf latched onto a leg a couple of times. Barone did his patented splits. That frustrated Nolf. Third time, Nolf went for a joint. That's the only time I saw him do it, but I still dislike him as a wrestler. 
4. Frustration may be the root cause for many of these instances. On the other hand, when one wrestler does a club to the head, and the second wrestler responds, there's probably more revenge than frustration involved. 

You might want to rewatch the Nolf vs Barone match again in slow motion. Not even close to what actually happened.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

You didn't watch long enough. Start about 8:50. Look for Nolf's hand grabbing the toes. That is illegal because it puts undue pressure on a joint.

Nolf was frustrated. Barone injury defaulted.

Wrong again.

He grabs the top of his foot. Leading 12-1 and on top is not frustrating at all. 

Barone just got injured because his toe got caught. Simple as that. It was tender when Nolf tries the bow and arrow. Simple as that. He already used all but 3 seconds of injury time from getting his toe caught in the mat. Simple as that.

Trying to compare that situation to any of Baylor Fernandes' moves just makes you look very bad.

[nhs67]

44 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Interesting take. But my comment was about future athletes that might find their way on a forum for similar reasons. If that was confusing to you, I apologies.

If you want to break the news of a kid being a kid or a dog biting man, there is nothing I can do to stop you. What you get out of pointing a microscope at a kid, I don't know if I'll ever understand. My questions were about the current situation that has already been thoroughly spoken of in public. It seemed as if there is no additional harm to consider cutting the kid some slack. 

Thanks for the attempted 'dunk' though. Are you satisfied with my responses?  

So Baylor Fernandes was a kid being a kid, then?

Also, you shouldn't come to a forum and tell us not to talk about it on a forum.  Asking the kettles not to mettle with the pots there.

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

9 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Wrong again.

He grabs the top of his foot. Leading 12-1 and on top is not frustrating at all. 

Barone just got injured because his toe got caught. Simple as that. It was tender when Nolf tries the bow and arrow. Simple as that. He already used all but 3 seconds of injury time from getting his toe caught in the mat. Simple as that.

Trying to compare that situation to any of Baylor Fernandes' moves just makes you look very bad.

Just admit it, WKN, like Kramer and Frank Costanza, you stopped short: 

Quote

 

8:55 Nolf secures the ankle/foot legally with the crook of his arm. 

8:56 Nolf reaches back with his hand and illegally grabs the foot.

8:56.5 Nolf twists. 

8:57 Barone screams out. 

8:59 Match is over.

 

 

Like everything else in the world, frustration is relative. "Leading 12-1 and on top is not frustrating at all" ... for you or me. But at the time Nolf was expected to pin everybody or tech fall them in the first period. Barone put up a spirited defense.

It frustrated Nolf. 

And that's the point I was trying to make: Not to compare Nolf to Fernandes--I even said it was the only instance I was aware of where Nolf wrestled illegally. My use of the example was part of my "frustration" argument. Nolf was guilty, and, at least in my mind, his illegal actions were caused by frustration. Even the best wrestlers can get frustrated. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

24 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

Just admit it, WKN, like Kramer and Frank Costanza, you stopped short: 

 

Like everything else in the world, frustration is relative. "Leading 12-1 and on top is not frustrating at all" ... for you or me. But at the time Nolf was expected to pin everybody or tech fall them in the first period. Barone put up a spirited defense.

It frustrated Nolf. 

And that's the point I was trying to make: Not to compare Nolf to Fernandes--I even said it was the only instance I was aware of where Nolf wrestled illegally. My use of the example was part of my "frustration" argument. Nolf was guilty, and, at least in my mind, his illegal actions were caused by frustration. Even the best wrestlers can get frustrated. 

How art thou wrong? Let me count the ways.

1. I watched the entire thing before I posted it.
2. You have no way of knowing Nolf's frustration level, particularly since he exhibited no signs of frustration. You are just projecting your own frustration.
3. Nolf did not wrestle illegally. Barone got his toe caught in the mat. Quit trying to make it like Illinois against the world. Woe is us. It is possible to get injured without an illegal act being committed. How do I know that? Because I looked at the video I posted.
4. In your mind? Your mind is wrong.