Boring Dual

[VakAttack]

10 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

 I know PSU fans that have been to both Kinnick and Carver and rave about the crowd noise intensity.  I'd never choose to see a a football game in Kinnick over Beaver stadium (Whiteouts are insane) but when it comes to a wrestling  venue and based on what I've heard from fellow PSU fans I'd take Carver over BJC.  I hear it's electric 

I've never been to any of the three, so I can't say.  I just know the difference in the other stadiums I've been too, lol.

[Scouts Honor]

6 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Sometimes I start drifting to the idea of moving college to freestyle. 

no

[Scouts Honor]

4 hours ago, poorwrestler said:

This debate is as tired as it can get, but just switch to freestyle. Don’t waste time trying new rules in folkstyle. Make the switch to what the rest of the world does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

no, it was a  much better dual than i expected

i figured Iowa would win two matches, 125 and 149, forgot about woods and then thought well, he is from stanford.  and he really didn't look that good against barlett, and i dont think bartlett is all that good

Iowa won all but one toss up match.. which made it exciting.. yeah you can get a little bored.. but its exciting in the moment b/c you dont know whats going to happen. If PSU had been dominating like i thought, i wouldn't have been excited about the later matches... i would have turned to Wis/NW or OU/ISU which i did a little anyway, but that me and the remote.

the sport is great, guys who aren't as good can still compete see star/brands.

who wants to see an ass kicking like brooks vs a backup? thats what's boring

and DT is saying we need all these extra points... why? high scoring doesn't mean more exciting... we already have sumo... its called the pushout... we can watch that in the offseason. just cause i push a guy out and get a point for MORE POINTs.. doesn't mean its more exciting

[1032004]

19 hours ago, VakAttack said:

 

I think this is essentially the best way forward, bummer as it may be.  Folkstyle has been gamed into submission.  We can yell "just call stalling!" all we want, but it appears to be not happening, so lets make that as little of a focus as we can

I don’t see how this is remotely feasible, unless you’re talking about switching college only.  Which would likely reduce interest at the younger levels.

But if we want to do it right you’d have to change all levels to freestyle and I can’t imagine that happening.  You think many youth/middle school coaches are bad now, try to make them teach freestyle…

[1032004]

I don’t think the dual was boring overall though.  A couple of the matches were, but it’s rare to have all 10 matches be exciting.

149-165 were all pretty good IMO despite the low scores.  IIRC, I was particularly shocked Murin took a shot at the end despite already having the lead.

I like DT’s suggestion, but I’d still like to see 3 point takedowns.  IMO, guys are too worried about giving up an escape after getting a takedown that a lot of times they wait until the end of the period to initiate much action.  I think a 3 point takedown would help change that.

[RYou]

The Rec Hall capacity is 6400.  PSU pulled 16000 v Iowa.  A single match ticket at Rec Hall will run you about $50.  The gate for PSU at BJC was +2.5 times the revenue of a Rec Hall dual.  Add in the increased revenue for concessions.

More importantly, there were 10000 more fans there in person that otherwise would have been relegated to BTN.

[Offthemat]

A three point takedown might help a little.  Current scoring is two takedowns equals two escapes and one takedown.  Three point takedowns would make it 6-5.  No points for escape would be 4-2.  
 

Stalling, major dec., tech falls, were all instituted to better ensure the dominant wrestler prevailed and increase interest in the sport.  Stalling has been controversial from the start as it’s subjective and it’s about the only circumstance in sports where an official awards points at his discretion.  There was a time when refs declared the winner when the match ended in a tie.  
 

The elimination of points for escapes, and possibly neutral restarts instead of points for stalling calls would bring increased activity and clarity to scoring.  You could have a time limit for riding: 30 seconds and if you haven’t started a predicament count, you restart in neutral, something like freestyle.  No matter what you do, people will try to game it, but I do think it can be improved. 
 

And let’s try to get more matches televised.   I can find more women’s underwater interpretive gymnastics events on tv than wrestling.  

[LJB]

On 1/28/2023 at 8:00 AM, VakAttack said:

Sometimes I start drifting to the idea of moving college to freestyle. 

Only if you want an exponentially better product…

[russelscout]

22 hours ago, Jamie_Taco said:

DT nailed it.. I wonder who he is talking about..

 

How about we try to stay away from making the rules so convoluted. I hate the idea of having to explain to a noob that you score this point if you do this one thing, but also you need to do this other thing.  It gets confusing.

[Jason Bryant]

How about we try to stay away from making the rules so convoluted. I hate the idea of having to explain to a noob that you score this point if you do this one thing, but also you need to do this other thing.  It gets confusing.

We have so many nuanced rules from one level to the next. It’s one of those IYKYK things and that isn’t always a good thing.

[LJB]

The boy and I got conned into reffing a HS tourney… they had 2 refs for 3 mats and I got a marker called in on me…

I had forgot how ridiculous and convoluted the rules of folk are… 

It’s like so many things I supposed… made more complicated than necessary for a variety of reasons but I would be hard pressed to entertain that any of those reasons were to make a better more entertaining product…

 

[1032004]

1 hour ago, russelscout said:

How about we try to stay away from making the rules so convoluted. I hate the idea of having to explain to a noob that you score this point if you do this one thing, but also you need to do this other thing.  It gets confusing.

I’d also be fine with doing away with riding time

[BerniePragle]

On 1/28/2023 at 9:58 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

For me it was exciting in the moment. The lack of takedowns meant so many matches were in the balance to the very end. But after individual matches I was disappointed with the lack of offense. PSU did not get so much as a takedown in 5 matches. Iowa failed to get a takedown in 8 matches. And 3 matches were won without either team getting a takedown. Only the first 2 matches had any kind of offense (I am not including 184 because it was such a mismatch).

I don't know if you watched tOSU v Mich just before.  The ref, Matt Sorochinsky, best in the NCAA, called stalling in both the 125 and 133 matches.  That sets the tone.  All you needed was a ref with the cajones to call stalling, esp on PSU and Cael, in BJC.  Bricks, f&%$ing video reviews, etc take match control away from the refs.  IMO, that's 75% of the problem.

[Holtfan]

1-point for take downs
0-points for escape
0-riding time
If tied going into OT, both on their feet, no clock, and go until one man scores (TD, Penalty Point....doesn't matter) 

Removing the points for riding time means top man can no longer just ride the hips, thus allowing the official to quit giving the top a pass and actually call stalling.  Making the stalling points the same level as a TD will cause action. 

[ionel]

Let's make it simple, the only points are:

1-point for escape
1-point for pushout

[1032004]

3 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

I don't know if you watched tOSU v Mich just before.  The ref, Matt Sorochinsky, best in the NCAA, called stalling in both the 125 and 133 matches.  

Watching tOSU Michigan now.  Pretty sure the first stalling in the 125 match wasn't until there was 18 seconds left in the match, and the first stalling wasn't called in the 133 match until there was 35 seconds left in the third (although it was still tied).

[dragit]

On 1/28/2023 at 11:02 AM, Jamie_Taco said:

DT nailed it.. I wonder who he is talking about..

 

The big one is the pushout.  They need to try it. No one can guarantee it will work, but it was very good in freestyle and it makes sense that it would help in folkstyle.

The lack of action in neutral Friday, and generally in big college matches, is greatly holding back the sport.  It's so bad that the rides are actually better to watch than neutral wrestling.  

And I wouldn't mind combining it with a shot clock when no Pointe scored. 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

29 minutes ago, dragit said:

The big one is the pushout.  They need to try it. No one can guarantee it will work, but it was very good in freestyle and it makes sense that it would help in folkstyle.

The lack of action in neutral Friday, and generally in big college matches, is greatly holding back the sport.  It's so bad that the rides are actually better to watch than neutral wrestling.  

And I wouldn't mind combining it with a shot clock when no Pointe scored. 

And why not add the ball grab too?

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

And why not add the ball grab too?

and coaches should  be able to throw the brick for a ball grab review 

[MPhillips]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

And why not add the ball grab too?

You're comparing the pushout to the ball grab? 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

You're comparing the pushout to the ball grab? 

No, it’s just another element from freestyle past that I think should be added. 

[dragit]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

And why not add the ball grab too?

This is a ridiculous post.  

First is the complete difference between a coin flip and performance on the mat affecting scoring.

Second is the fact that the pushout and shot clock were put in as a highly successful reform to the joke of the ball grab.

[dragit]

No one who isn't already an established, serious wrestling fan is going to have watched that dual on Friday and have thought there was exciting action and going to be looking forward to watching more wrestling.  This is not a good way to grow interest.  The refs have definitively shown they won't use the stalling tool to make a real difference.  The only way to get more action will be thoughtful focus on rule change(s).

[Framer614]

[1032004]

2 hours ago, dragit said:

No one who isn't already an established, serious wrestling fan is going to have watched that dual on Friday and have thought there was exciting action and going to be looking forward to watching more wrestling.  This is not a good way to grow interest.  The refs have definitively shown they won't use the stalling tool to make a real difference.  The only way to get more action will be thoughtful focus on rule change(s).

125 and 133 had exciting action…