Starocci 2nd best ever?

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, Caveira said:

And his (dake’s) bonus rate is already 125% greater than Carter at NCAAs.  

Neither guy has been bonus machines at NCAA. Starocci has 11, including a year on one leg that impacted his wrestling style, while Dake had 13. No real difference here. The true outlier is Diakomihalis who had only 4 bonus points.

[Caveira]

27 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Neither guy has been bonus machines at NCAA. Starocci has 11, including a year on one leg that impacted his wrestling style, while Dake had 13. No real difference here. The true outlier is Diakomihalis who had only 4 bonus points.

There is nothing non factual about what I wrote.  Dake had 125% more bonus point wins at NCAAs v Carter.   9 to 4.   9 for dake and 4 for Carter.  More pins too fwiw.   I know you know this it’s in your chart which is nice btw.   You don’t get enough credit for your analysis.  
 

Dake did this On the biggest stage…. the best ever turn it up.   Others create caveats.   This isn’t a conversation about the good-est ever.  It’s who is the goat.   

[Cornell Kevin]

There are different kind of ways to dominate your opponent. Dake may not have lit up the score board but he did suffocate his opponents.  Dake gave up one single point in 4 years in the first round of NCAAs.  He never gave up a point at NCAAs in 4 years for rounds 2 and 3.  For the semifinals, he only gave up points his freshman year to Humphreys and had shut outs his sophomore, junior and senior year. 

So he was one escape point his freshman year in round 1 away from shutting out everyone he faced at ncaas for the first 3 rounds of the tournament.  He was that and the Humphreys match away from shutting out everyone all 4 years through the semis. 

 

If that wasn’t enough proof of how difficult it was to score on him, look how many pts David Taylor, quite possibly the most prolific scorer in NCAA history scored on him in all the matches they wrestled.  

Dake being the only one who won without taking a red shirt may be more of a factor even then winning it at 4 different weights.  Although has their not been the Olympic shirt year, and A repeat Olympic year (he was able to fortunately take since ivys canceled the season that year) Yianni could have done the same thing having won both his true freshman and sophomore years.  
Think Yianni doesn’t ever get enough credit for a dude that went 115-2 and unlike Dake, he did win his conference tournament all 4x as well.  In fact Yianni never lost a tournament he entered while in college.  Dake took 4th at one and 2nd at an EIWA.  

Yianni was very close to being undefeated.  He also beat both the guys that he lost to (majoring Gomez at Wisconsin dual and beating Eierman 3x over. The ironic thing about the  Eierman loss was that he was actually beating him worse than any  of the 3x that he did beat him. He was up 4-1 with riding time locked in with 30 sec to go.  Questionable reversal call awarded to Eierman making it 4-3 (5-3 with RT).  Eierman cuts him making it 5-3 (6-3 with RT) and 17 tics left. Yianni has no stall calls on him and can literally run around but instead shoots an awful shot way out, gets cradled and loses 9-6 as clock tics down to end match. 
 

Logan doesn’t like to count his freshman year at CKLV where he went 3-3 but those matches absolutely do count.  Why would they not?  His career record is 122-6  

 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

9 minutes ago, Cornell Kevin said:

There are different kind of ways to dominate your opponent. Dake may not have lit up the score board but he did suffocate his opponents.  

 

 

A-FREAKIN-MEN

[Richferg]

How many of you would be banging the drum about Starocci being #2 to Cael if he didn’t wrestle for PSU. Especially because he would be undefeated for 4 years if he wins this year. Sound familiar?

[fishbane]

6 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

Another thing to consider: Dake, Yianni, et al, didn't have to wrestle a B1G schedule. 

We can't know how that might have impacted results, health or anything else, but I don't think that's a small thing. It could have impacted several things. 

The Big Ten schedule is tough, but competitive balance and conference realignments have changed over time in addition to scheduling practices of the top programs.  It was the Big 8 back when Smith wrestled and  his first three years the Big Ten was actually a 10 team conference - no PSU, no Nebraska, no Rutgers, and no Maryland neither.  OSU wrestled the best team in the Big Ten, Iowa, every year.  I don't think he would gain anything from a Big Ten schedule.  A similar argument could be made of Sanderson.  It was the Big 12 during his career and the Big Ten was the original 10 plus Penn State, but the Big 12 was just as competitive.  ISU, OSU, OU, and Nebraska were all top 10 teams at that time.  Just as tough as the Big 10 and ISU always wrestled at least Iowa. 

Comparing the most recent 4xers to the past 4xers you need to look at the difference in scheduling.  Today PSU doesn't schedule any in season tournaments for their starters and hasn't participated in the National Duals during the careers of either Aaron Brooks or Carter Starocci.  The only time either wrestled in one of the top in-season tournament (CKLV, Midlands, Southern Scuffle) was when they were competing unattached.  Brooks DNPed at Midlands his greyshirt year and Starocci won the Scuffle his redshirt year in a rather weak field. They are the only 4xers without a win at one of these tournaments on their official NCAA record.  The difference in scheduling also had them wrestling fewer matches overall.  Brooks and Starocci have far and away the fewest career matches of the 4xers and they both wrestled 5 official seasons. 

It's hard to give Brooks and Starocci bonus points for a Big Ten schedule when they also had the easiest tournament schedule and the fewest overall matches.  They didn't run the table at their conference tournament either.  Brooks won 4/5 times at Big Tens and Starocci only 3/5.  All the other 4xers were 4/4 except Dake (3/4).

[Caveira]

38 minutes ago, fishbane said:

The Big Ten schedule is tough, but competitive balance and conference realignments have changed over time in addition to scheduling practices of the top programs.  It was the Big 8 back when Smith wrestled and  his first three years the Big Ten was actually a 10 team conference - no PSU, no Nebraska, no Rutgers, and no Maryland neither.  OSU wrestled the best team in the Big Ten, Iowa, every year.  I don't think he would gain anything from a Big Ten schedule.  A similar argument could be made of Sanderson.  It was the Big 12 during his career and the Big Ten was the original 10 plus Penn State, but the Big 12 was just as competitive.  ISU, OSU, OU, and Nebraska were all top 10 teams at that time.  Just as tough as the Big 10 and ISU always wrestled at least Iowa. 

Comparing the most recent 4xers to the past 4xers you need to look at the difference in scheduling.  Today PSU doesn't schedule any in season tournaments for their starters and hasn't participated in the National Duals during the careers of either Aaron Brooks or Carter Starocci.  The only time either wrestled in one of the top in-season tournament (CKLV, Midlands, Southern Scuffle) was when they were competing unattached.  Brooks DNPed at Midlands his greyshirt year and Starocci won the Scuffle his redshirt year in a rather weak field. They are the only 4xers without a win at one of these tournaments on their official NCAA record.  The difference in scheduling also had them wrestling fewer matches overall.  Brooks and Starocci have far and away the fewest career matches of the 4xers and they both wrestled 5 official seasons. 

It's hard to give Brooks and Starocci bonus points for a Big Ten schedule when they also had the easiest tournament schedule and the fewest overall matches.  They didn't run the table at their conference tournament either.  Brooks won 4/5 times at Big Tens and Starocci only 3/5.  All the other 4xers were 4/4 except Dake (3/4).

This!  

[Caveira]

53 minutes ago, Richferg said:

How many of you would be banging the drum about Starocci being #2 to Cael if he didn’t wrestle for PSU. Especially because he would be undefeated for 4 years if he wins this year. Sound familiar?

Double this!  

[dragit]

7 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

Another thing to consider: Dake, Yianni, et al, didn't have to wrestle a B1G schedule. 

We can't know how that might have impacted results, health or anything else, but I don't think that's a small thing. It could have impacted several things. 

 

 

 

 

Agree but Dake and Yianni had a lot of pressure with keeping up with academics at an Ivy.  I've always thought that's why Dake could be a little flat before the NCAAs from time to time.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, dragit said:

Agree but Dake and Yianni had a lot of pressure with keeping up with academics at an Ivy.  I've always thought that's why Dake could be a little flat before the NCAAs from time to time.

What were their majors?  

[SocraTease]

Sanderson Press Conference today:

 

[lu_alum]

22 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Sanderson won 3. Ben Askren, Zain Retherford, Spencer Lee, and Gable Steveson are the only two-timers.

Didn't they tweak the voting to elevate Steveson into a tie with Lee?

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Didn't they tweak the voting to elevate Steveson into a tie with Lee?

No one knows for sure which one was elevated. They did not release the totals that year.

"Last season’s winner Spencer Lee of Iowa and Gable Steveson of Minnesota wound up in a virtual tie, with Lee winning the Fan Vote (25,712 to Steveson’s 5,202 votes), but multiple members of the formal Hodge Trophy Voting Committee voting for co-winners with both Steveson and Lee having such similar Hodge Trophy voting criteria stats."

[AgaveMaria]

"Last season’s winner Spencer Lee of Iowa and Gable Steveson of Minnesota wound up in a virtual tie"

-----------------------------

"virtual tie" is not a tie. It is engineering a reason to elevate one to the status of the other.

 

[RawDog]

23 hours ago, Ched64 said:

I think the thing that sets Dake apart is that he moved up his senior year not because he grew out of 157 but specifically because Taylor was at 165 and he wanted the challenge.  I know one of the Banachs were involved in something like that but really, who does that? Move up to take on arguably the absolute best wrestler in the country at that time? Then he beats him 3 times to nil.  I think Cael is the GOAT but Dake is right up there.  4 years straight, no redshirt, no covid. He was never interested in style points…he was just a winner flat out all through that run.

Suriano also cut to 125 to try to stop Spencer from being a 4 timer. Unfortunately Spencer was unable to finish that season.

[dragit]

4 hours ago, ionel said:

What were their majors?  

IIRC Dake was sociology and had a good GPA.  Yianni seems smart but know no details.  

[scourge165]

13 hours ago, The Kid said:

He didn't just beat Taylor, he dominated Taylor is every phase of wrestling. 

He beat him 3-2 and 5-4...

Yeah, just 

[scourge165]

14 hours ago, Gus said:

I get that you are a Starocci fan but lets not diminish Dake beating Taylor. 1x champ or not what Taylor had done up to that point was outstanding. The Dake wins over DT are the best wins any 4xer has on their resume.

Yeah, I'm really not. I just think there is a TON of hypocrisy on this board. His nickname is "CStall" and he gets crushed for...winning pretty much the same way that Dake won. TD and riding people out and not giving anything up. 

He beat Taylor 3-2 and 5-4 and someone said he "absolutely dominated" him. Starocci beats 4X AAs and NCs doing the same and it's someone a check against him.

Taylor had been outstanding. And Shane Griffith was undefeated going into the NCAAs in 2020, won it the following year. Was a runner up to O'Toole, losing a 6-5 match and his last year lost to Staroci. 
Lewis was a champ, would have been a multiple time champ if not for Starocci.

 

11 hours ago, fishbane said:

How is this relevant?  The match took place Maple's senior year.

You're talking about how impressive an All-Star Matchup is. I think Maple's credentials vs Keckisen's are relevant. 

 

11 hours ago, fishbane said:

Maybe it's more impressive than beating Maple, but that's not really the point and it's not so much that it is a chack against Starocci as it is a chack for Stieber.

 Ok...Stieber also took a loss his SR year to a Freshmen.

There are a check's for each...yet somehow Starocci is the least impressive...

12 hours ago, fishbane said:

Sure Keckeisen is a tough match, but it's a match we are expecting to see at NCAAs.  Stieber ended up beating Carter in the NCAA final, so there really shouldn't be any regret on him passing on that match at the All Star Classic to challenge Maple.  Carter lost to Tony Ramos who was also wrestling up in the 141lb match at the All Star Classic.  Stieber was undefeated in his career against Carter, Ramos, and Maple.  He took the most challenging/interesting match.

Yeah...that was interesting. It doesn't really move the needle for me much though. Just because the Starocci-Keck match was going to happen(probably) at the NCAAs anyway...I don't think it makes it less impressive he took the challenge. 

 

12 hours ago, fishbane said:

To me Ferrari plays into this in that Starocci clearly had the chance to make this match and did not.  That's a chack against him in comparison to Stieber who did the opposite when presented with a similar opportu

Ok...1-I really thought a "chalk" against you was meant to be a check so I just ignored the first several times, but...ok, we'll go with chalk.

 

When did he even have the chance to Wrestle Ferrari? Ferrari wouldn't even Wrestle Stephen Little. You're acting like Starocci ducked Ferrari.

There are a lot of bad reasons...this may be the worst. 

 

Quote

 To just about everyone it is clear why Ferrari didn't take the offer - he could not make 184lbs.  I am sure he was not certified to compete at 184 this season.  It was a non-offer.  I think you're right that Ferrari skipping dates this year was somewhat related to the Starocci-Ferrari all star match not happening.  He likely skipped dates because he has trouble making 197lbs!

Starroci never asked him to Wrestle at 184...and it's funny that Ferrari just missed weight vs every good opponent but making weight the rest of the time.

 

[666]

I've got Cael and Dake over Starocci. I'd put Starocci on the next tier of 4 timers. I hold guys prior to Dan Gable to a different standard since they didn't get the chance to win 4. 

[scourge165]

7 hours ago, Richferg said:

How many of you would be banging the drum about Starocci being #2 to Cael if he didn’t wrestle for PSU. Especially because he would be undefeated for 4 years if he wins this year. Sound familiar?

It almost seems MORE geared toward Starocci than anyone else IMO...

8 hours ago, Cornell Kevin said:

Logan doesn’t like to count his freshman year at CKLV where he went 3-3 but those matches absolutely do count.  Why would they not?  His career record is 122-6  

They just didn't. The NCAA didn't count RS Freshmen records and they didn't count MFFs...until they did. 

That is why Cael is an undefeated 4X Champ. 

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, 666 said:

I've got Cael and Dake over Starocci. I'd put Starocci on the next tier of 4 timers. I hold guys prior to Dan Gable to a different standard since they didn't get the chance to win 4. 

That's fair...

I can't speak about Pat Smith as I didn't see him. I can look back at what...Kemp did(that referees decision from a 4X NC) and Banach, Mcllravy(If I ranked the 4X Champs and included Lincoln, he wouldn't be last in my book).

Uetake and those guys, it's a different sport almost. You can say Uetake is the best ever and be right, but he basically wrestled a different sport...but absolutely deserves to be recognized as an All-Time Great. 

So I'm just going with the Cael on forward guys. I would put Cael first, I think Brooks is my #2. I think winning it at those weights is just a little tougher as a Freshmen than at '33/'41. That's splitting hairs. 

The Starocci issue is..it's just illogical to me. Dake seems to be so far ahead and Starocci gets knocked down and I just don't get it. And then people try and tweak it. Use the same W/L for everyone and Starr is 98-2 and on his way to being 102-2 with losses to Kemerer and then his first duel, someone he's beaten numerous times since(Yianni gets points for that from the Cornell crowd). 

We go back and guess how he'd have done as a Freshmen. I think we've seen he tends to come out with the W in the NCAAs. 

So for me it's 1-Cael, 2-Brooks, 3/4-Dake/Starocci, 5/6-Stieber and Yianni are tough to separate. 

 

But as I said before, I would probably have some 3X Champs(maybe even 2X Champs) who I'd have ahead of a few 4X Champs. 

I just find the lack of respect for Starocci...silly. And I'm NOT a PSU fan. I'm just a fan in general. I'd pay money to see an Askren vs Starocci match though. That'd be...interesting. 

Edited 11 hours ago by scourge165

[Gus]

6 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Yeah, I'm really not. I just think there is a TON of hypocrisy on this board. His nickname is "CStall" and he gets crushed for...winning pretty much the same way that Dake won. TD and riding people out and not giving anything up. 

He beat Taylor 3-2 and 5-4 and someone said he "absolutely dominated" him. Starocci beats 4X AAs and NCs doing the same and it's someone a check against him.

Taylor had been outstanding. And Shane Griffith was undefeated going into the NCAAs in 2020, won it the following year. Was a runner up to O'Toole, losing a 6-5 match and his last year lost to Staroci. 
Lewis was a champ, would have been a multiple time champ if not for Starocci.

 

You're talking about how impressive an All-Star Matchup is. I think Maple's credentials vs Keckisen's are relevant. 

 

 Ok...Stieber also took a loss his SR year to a Freshmen.

There are a check's for each...yet somehow Starocci is the least impressive...

Yeah...that was interesting. It doesn't really move the needle for me much though. Just because the Starocci-Keck match was going to happen(probably) at the NCAAs anyway...I don't think it makes it less impressive he took the challenge. 

 

Ok...1-I really thought a "chalk" against you was meant to be a check so I just ignored the first several times, but...ok, we'll go with chalk.

 

When did he even have the chance to Wrestle Ferrari? Ferrari wouldn't even Wrestle Stephen Little. You're acting like Starocci ducked Ferrari.

There are a lot of bad reasons...this may be the worst. 

 

Starroci never asked him to Wrestle at 184...and it's funny that Ferrari just missed weight vs every good opponent but making weight the rest of the time.

 

You and I both know that beating DT far outweighs beating Mekhi or Griffith. 

[scourge165]

32 minutes ago, Gus said:

You and I both know that beating DT far outweighs beating Mekhi or Griffith. 

Who are you arguing with? 

I never said it wasn't(though...I think you could argue beating back to back 4X AA and two NC on a bad knee is comparable)...but look at what I said. Dake wins by a point and he DOMIANTED Taylor. He won 3-2 and 5-4. 

Starocci goes out there, obviously injured and it's used against him because he didn't have the same bonus rate. It's...absurd. 

And again, both Griffith and Lewis don't get the respect they deserve. Griffith was the #1 seed and undefeated in 2020, won a NC, lost a 6-5 match to Keegan O'toole in the finals.

He beat Lewis. If he wins this year, he'll have beaten Keck. 

And the #1 complaint is the bonus rate or how he does it...and he does it VERY similar to how Dake did it. He doesn't ride as hard  as Dake but I think that's because he's better on his feet and he doesn't need to...and when he does, he rides out the best in the Country. 

 

I think people are just searching for reasons why Dake Wrestling relatively boring matches with incredible defense, he was tough on top(better on top, but both were elite) and Taylor was better on his fee offensively(though again...both were great). 

 

 

Carter Starocci has one stud standing in his way(either Keck or McEnelly) away from being a 5x Individual Champ and a 5X team champ and the MAJORITY of the posts on this board are trashing him. A thread longer than this one about why he didn't beat Ferrari worse than he did. 

And i do think time is going to look back on him more favorably. I think if he's not wrestling Welsch would be at 184, you'd have Barr at '84, McEnelly would be looking to start his quest for 4 or Keck his 5th time in the top 3 and 2nd title and the most nit picky stuff is used against him. Even his W/L %. He's behind Cael and maybe Yianni and that's it if you're going off the official scoring from before last year. But we don't do that. 

 

Anyway, I'm about rung out on my Carter Starocci crusade. I'm not a PSU fan and I don't know the kid. I just don't agree with the genera lsentiment. 

[Caveira]

4 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Use the same W/L for everyone and Starr is 98-2

Who else was so injured he essentially skipped his conference tournament.  Those 2 losses at bigs are in fact losses.  Why do you think you can change the rules and just ignore those.   

[BloodRound]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

Carter Starocci has one stud standing in his way(either Keck or McEnelly) away from being a 5x Individual Champ and a 5X team champ and the MAJORITY of the posts on this board are trashing him.

In a discussion based around pure, on the mat skill, Starocci cannot be denied among the other 4xers.  Him and Dake worked very similar styles in college.

Unfortunately, Carter's ego is too huge to push away when discussing this, so everyone will do what they can to discredit his work.  But I guess he's brought a lot of that upon himself.