Why Even Bother with a Wrestling Season?

[JBluegill133]

Nowhere near as familiar with D2/3, but do we see this kind of seed protection/ducking in the "lower" divisions?  Maybe we as a fan base start focusing our attention, money, travels on the wrestlers and teams that put competition as a presidence?  I can't speak on the d2 tourny, but d3's is always a blast and the competition is incredible.  Just throwing conversation ideas out there.

[Bulldog]

Just listened to the Brian Smith pre-scuffle interview on Flo.  He makes it clear both coaches and athletes want changes to the traditional college wrestling season.  From this point forward I am no longer going to be disappointed and accept unless I am watching the actual NCAA tourney, nothing really matters and to expect forfeits and no-shows. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Bulldog

[MPhillips]

33 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

Just listened to the Brian Smith pre-scuffle interview on Flo.

It was a good, candid ten minute interview. 

[Major Kong]

It seems this boils down to: do the NCAA wrestling "powers that be" want to grow the sport and increase or retain the fan base and interest level it currently has, or not? If they do, the season (in some form) becomes important, along with the presentation of matches, meets and tournaments. If not they can just continue the trend and accept it will be a super-niche sport with interest beyond friends, family and wrestling alums confined to 3 days. Kind of like horse racing where the triple crown races are the three days that anyone other than bettors and industry people pay attention (on a much much smaller scale in wrestlings case of course). 

Beyond the fact that guys sitting out, forfeiting, picking their spots etc. diminishes any interest in the season for the few fans the sport has, this behavior tells everybody very clearly that the coaches, teams and wrestlers feel the season is unimportant. Keep sending that message and the remaining fans will finally receive it and agree, and, with a few exceptions, start tuning out.

My two cents.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

12 hours ago, Formally140 said:

they want it to be a rich kid and/or psycho dad, club sport that is “niche”

You mean like hockey but with less costly equipment and even more niche in the US?

It should be more like basketball, IMHO, but for those on the shorter side of height.

Edited January 1, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[ionel]

10 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

I usually fly into Memphis when I announce home duals at Little Rock. I need to create a start at Rendezvous my next trip in. My wife was on a consulting job in Millington for a stretch and they would hit Rendezvous before flying home on the weekend.

Rendezvous has the best dry rub, Central great BBQ in general.  One of my son's did summer intern with Valero discovered 3 we hit these two on weekend trip down for visit, can't remember his 3rd.    Commisary was one we always went to when down for soccer tournament in Germantown.  I'd put all 3 above any I've had in KC, TX, etc.   

[98lberEating2Lunches]

11 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

biggest failing is retention at the youth level

Same happens for youth baseball where weight cutting isn't a thing.

I think it has more to do with kid's desire for more instant gratification, along with their reticence to commit to longer term skills development at a young age.

It takes parental guidance and fun (not tedious practice that seems like work) to overcome.  Some crazy parents do it right.  Others seek out and leave it to the right kind of coaches (hence club$).

Edited January 1, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[Eagle26]

9 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Just listened to the Brian Smith pre-scuffle interview on Flo.  He makes it clear both coaches and athletes want changes to the traditional college wrestling season.  From this point forward I am no longer going to be disappointed and accept unless I am watching the actual NCAA tourney, nothing really matters and to expect forfeits and no-shows. 

One of the best interviews I heard in while… every wrestling fan should listen if they haven’t yet. Coach Smith is spot on with things that need to change in the sport. Duals are exciting and we need to find a way to make them matter. It’s not rocket science either… put a bigger emphasis on National Duals and make a qualification system like high school wrestling and other sports so every dual counts. We can achieve this and shorten the season. Each team could have 7-10 duals. Then nationals duals. Maybe one or two tournaments throughout the season and then conference and NCAAs. That would be like 20-30 matches and that is more than enough to keep our fans happy without over doing it. 40+ matches is totally unnecessary IMO.

[jajensen09]

On 1/1/2023 at 8:12 AM, Bulldog said:

Just listened to the Brian Smith pre-scuffle interview on Flo.  He makes it clear both coaches and athletes want changes to the traditional college wrestling season.  From this point forward I am no longer going to be disappointed and accept unless I am watching the actual NCAA tourney, nothing really matters and to expect forfeits and no-shows. 

I think alot of the ducking will stop once all these covid seniors pass through. Which will take a couple years yet

[jajensen09]

I believe the seeding for ncaas should be changed to make the season more meaningful. Have to wrestle x about of matches to be seadable. Also don't take into account previous years placing

[ionel]

12 minutes ago, jajensen09 said:

I believe the seeding for ncaas should be changed to make the season more meaningful. Have to wrestle x about of matches to be seadable. Also don't take into account previous years placing

they currently don't consider previous year

[jajensen09]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

they currently don't consider previous year

Ok. There still should be match limit. It must be conference tournaments that take it consideration of the previous year

[11986]

25 minutes ago, jajensen09 said:

I believe the seeding for ncaas should be changed to make the season more meaningful. Have to wrestle x about of matches to be seadable. Also don't take into account previous years placing

They seed the whole bracket. I like a minimum # of matches to qualify though. 

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, jajensen09 said:

Ok. There still should be match limit. It must be conference tournaments that take it consideration of the previous year

Believe conference like b10 do consider where you place in b10 tourney previousvyear. 

[jajensen09]

20 minutes ago, ionel said:

Believe conference like b10 do consider where you place in b10 tourney previousvyear. 

They should scratch that and make wrestlers wrestle that current year for their seeds. You'd see less ducking

[gimpeltf]

33 minutes ago, 11986 said:

They seed the whole bracket. I like a minimum # of matches to qualify though. 

Not to qualify, to prequalify a spot for your conference.

[dragit]

I have been reading all the stuff in multiple threads on this topic with interest and sadness and I appreciated Coach Smith's comments.

My engagement has gone way down because of these issues.  I didn't consider going to Midlands for a second this year.  I used to plan winter break around it.

I doubt I'll go to any dual meets.  I don't watch as many matches on line as I used to.  Etc.  I watched a lot of football this weekend,  which I never do, and I'm sure it's because I'm not following wrestling as closely as I always used to after baseball ended.

I have reservations but at this point am not sure I'll go to NCAAs.  Even that has become less fun with the endless TV timeouts after every weight every round. 

I have zero good answers for any of this, only a simple question:  CAN'T THERE BE SOME SORT OF HAPPY MEDIUM BETWEEN 45 MATCHES A YEAR AND 15?!?!

OK got stuff off my chest and proved I'm now officially a curmudgeon.  Hey you get off my lawn!!

[Tigerfan]

Problem is we can’t get together. Wrestling has proven to be able to mobilize and save programs, even the Olympics, but there are clearly 2 camps, Cael and to a lesser extent Brands, then everyone else. But everyone else, fan wise, probably barely equals PSU and Iowa, if that. If the other 75 programs all agreed, without PSU and Iowa support, nothing will change on the NCAA level. 

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, Tigerfan said:

Problem is we can’t get together. Wrestling has proven to be able to mobilize and save programs, even the Olympics, but there are clearly 2 camps, Cael and to a lesser extent Brands, then everyone else. But everyone else, fan wise, probably barely equals PSU and Iowa, if that. If the other 75 programs all agreed, without PSU and Iowa support, nothing will change on the NCAA level. 

I say vote to throw them out ... think of the portal & transfers. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

Revisiting this. One way to prevent ducking and encourage wrestlers to compete the whole season is to reform the RPI system so it has more impact for the postseason. For starters why not consider:

• Total # of matches (higher = better)
• Winning %
• Bonus % (or total dual points)
• Strength of record
• Quad 1 wins (home matches vs. 1-10, neutral matches vs. 1-15, away matches vs. 1-20) 
• Opponent's winning %
• Opponent's bonus % 
• Opponent's strength of record
• Strength of conference? Dunno

Weight those factors and raise the minimum # of matches needed for an RPI ranking. Maybe add a "big match" credit where wrestlers who wrestle a Quad 1 match outside of the weight they compete at for 75% of the regular season... this incentivizes guys to bump up or move down a weight for big dual matches.

In this age of analytics, I'm sure there are other metrics that could be incorporated. Anything to bring more excitement to the sport.

[Formally140]

Ranking events would help

[AgaveMaria]

On 1/1/2023 at 12:01 AM, SetonHallPirate said:

Matches against teammates basically don't exist. They aren't even supposed to appear on the In-Season Record Form, in fact. (Rule 9.6.4)

Spencer Lee would have won NCAA's this year if he had not been forced to wrestle a Team Mate?

The reality of competition is that fans love it. The more matches, the better.

Look at Cael, Gable and those with many matches over the years. Decades ago 20 matches was a lot. Then 25-40 or so a season became more normal. Now some are cutting back.

In season matches help prepare the wrestlers for the tournaments. Gives a chance to work on technique against real competition. Feeds rivalries and builds team spirit.

First Semester/before Christmas - more relaxed maybe? Give newer wrestlers more chances with a "no limit" policy until the Holidays - then the enforced limit after? Encourage participation and competition. The kids come to wrestle, not sit back and hope. Give them the chance to wrestle - a lot to be learned by facing top quality competition even if you aren't there yet. Face it and learn and the coaches will have more information from that and can push more individual training based on what they see - not just in the room.

If we keep with what is happening now no one will ever get 159 matches in a college career - much less be 159-0.

You only have so much time to wrestle - get in all the matches possible.

[Bulldog]

To be fair,  I started this topic right after Midlands or somewhere after the first half of the season...  The ducking this year was quite a bit better than the year before.  Maybe some coaches heard things loud and clear.  Who knows?   Again, I do think it is time to start looking at moving wrestling to late winter/early spring sport and perhaps some aspects of the college grind won't be as brutal.   

[gimpeltf]

3 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Revisiting this. One way to prevent ducking and encourage wrestlers to compete the whole season is to reform the RPI system so it has more impact for the postseason. For starters why not consider:

• Total # of matches (higher = better)
• Winning %
• Bonus % (or total dual points)
• Strength of record
• Quad 1 wins (home matches vs. 1-10, neutral matches vs. 1-15, away matches vs. 1-20) 
• Opponent's winning %
• Opponent's bonus % 
• Opponent's strength of record
• Strength of conference? Dunno

Weight those factors and raise the minimum # of matches needed for an RPI ranking. Maybe add a "big match" credit where wrestlers who wrestle a Quad 1 match outside of the weight they compete at for 75% of the regular season... this incentivizes guys to bump up or move down a weight for big dual matches.

In this age of analytics, I'm sure there are other metrics that could be incorporated. Anything to bring more excitement to the sport.

 

Yeah, to me neither RPI nor WL/PCT by themselves tell us much. A good RPI mean you wrestled a lot of good guys. WL might say you beat a lot of schlumps. You need to combine them somehow (as you mention above)

[scourge165]

On 12/31/2022 at 11:39 PM, Formally140 said:

Basketball didn’t magically take over. Their guys became ADs and into state associations and the NCAA. Same with football. they made strategic decisions and played the “filthy politics” that wrestling coaches won’t. 

Wrestling in America put itself in the position it’s in currently. The same way that it wasn’t really Title IX that cut a lot of programs. It was having the team of assholes with bad grades at many of those colleges. 

if people want wrestling to be a niche sport so they can claim tuff guy superiority and not risk more guys like Burroughs beating out their special “prodigy” they dragged around the  country.. that’s fine. He’ll there’s posters who never wrestled on this forum who very openly make that their whole thing. 

but I’m sick of this narrative that wrestling is a “victim” and could “never” be more than it is  and could “never ever” compete with the bigger sports. it’s a cop out and has a mentality exactly the opposite of what wrestling people claim to have.

 

 

I actually think Wrestling is doing pretty well and having a bit of a renaissance, but it's never going to be Basketball or Football or even Baseball. It's not "fun" like those sports are. In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better. That requires a LOT of work. 

I don't think it's a victim, I just don't see how you're going to get it to the level of mass appeal that Basketball and Football has. 

And I really don't get the "tuff guy superiority" statement. I wish everyone Wrestled. There are a lot of great athletes and Burroughs started Wrestling when he was in like 1st or 2nd grade. So his story isn't exactly like Lee Kemp's where he didn't start until HS and was barely .500 until his last two years. 

 

It's the greatest sport in the world IMO, but we've tried professional Wresting leagues we've tried to market it on different levels. It IS a niche sport and I don't think it's because the ADs just care that much more about BB and FB, I think they care more about FB and BB because it generates more revenue.

 

As for the regular season...I like the idea that you need X number of regular season matches to qualify, X number to get seeded...provided you leave a little leeway for legitimate injuries. Like seeding, it shouldn't be absolute. Brayton Lee(hypothetically) shouldn't have been punished had he come back this year from that gruesome injury and been punished. But you could iron that out.