Should the U.S. be the best country in the world for men's freestyle wrestling?

[forkemaz]

1 hour ago, alex1fly said:

TBH I need a freestyle buddy to watch with that can explain the ref behavior. Rules can be learned but with free (and Greco to an extent) I'm often wondering why the refs are doing what they're doing. They seem to be given a lot of say in not only who wins the match but with how the wrestlers interact with each other - set ups, TDs, tie ups, how much time par terre lasts, all of it.  Some if it makes sense but sometimes it reads like favoritism.... which is acceptable/expected according to posts here.

Freestyle is a hot mess and its readily apparrent to most normal people. The people on this board are hard cores and they will defend what they like but youre right there is a lot of subjectivity and that is a problem. The rule set issue is more opinioned based. I dont think think anyone can argue that rules are subjectively enforced in freestyle to a very large degree. Why is there no par terre clock? Its certainly not uniform. Wrestler A just hand fought his way into the under hook why are you blowing it dead to tell them to work? 

[JeanGuy]

I am a relatively new fan of wrestling. I don't find one any easier to explain to someone than the other. In folk you can watch two guys roll around for 40 seconds and there are no points scored because they are both holding on to a foot. Or as others have said here is a lace and the match is now over.

Neither is made for the uninitiated.

Just embrace that they are different and enjoy both (or all three).

Edited August 14 by JeanGuy
added more

[scribers]

6 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Carl's Jr. (okay, Hardee's) never made me a contender. Their double western bacon cheeseburger was the bane of my existence.

The struggle is real! 

[The Kid]

3 hours ago, JeanGuy said:

I am a relatively new fan of wrestling. I don't find one any easier to explain to someone than the other. In folk you can watch two guys roll around for 40 seconds and there are no points scored because they are both holding on to a foot. Or as others have said here is a lace and the match is now over.

Neither is made for the uninitiated.

Just embrace that they are different and enjoy both (or all three).

Or just admit folkstall is boring and dying in this Country.

The current freestyle rules blow away folkstall subjectivity.  The can't even figure our what a takedown is or isn't?  Changing the takedown and backpoints points hasn't helped. Scoring backpoints out of bounds is bizarre. Trapping an ankle from top is horrible for the sport. 

The Olympics were incredible.  Freestyle is flourishing.  Why stick with folkstall?  There's no legimate reason to keep folkstall alive.  It's hideous.

Edited August 14 by The Kid

[ionel]

11 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Or just admit folkstall is boring and dying in this Country.

The current freestyle rules blow away folkstall subjectivity.  The can't even figure our what a takedown is or isn't?  Changing the takedown and backpoints points hasn't helped. Scoring backpoints out of bounds is bizarre. Trapping an ankle from top is horrible for the sport. 

The Olympics were incredible.  Freestyle is flourishing.  Why stick with folkstall?  There's no legimate reason to keep folkstall alive.  It's hideous.

It's because folkstyle has more action than freestill.  

[alex1fly]

 

4 hours ago, JeanGuy said:

I am a relatively new fan of wrestling. I don't find one any easier to explain to someone than the other. In folk you can watch two guys roll around for 40 seconds and there are no points scored because they are both holding on to a foot. Or as others have said here is a lace and the match is now over.

Neither is made for the uninitiated.

Just embrace that they are different and enjoy both (or all three).

Totes. This is where I’m at. I would love to understand freestyle better. The emotional appeals (with zero backing data) are a bit much. If freestyle is about two athletes and a ref competing together, then that’s what it is lol

A par terre clock makes a lot of sense to my folkstyle-influenced brain

[The Kid]

19 hours ago, forkemaz said:

Is free style gaining fans? Does freestyle have more fans than folkstyle does? 

Obviously freestyle is more popular than folk stall.

Greco and the metric system too. 

 

 

 

 

[The Kid]

10 hours ago, ionel said:

It's because folkstyle has more action than freestill.  

Yes. More actiion diving out of bounds and 26 restarts in a 1/0 bout.

Last years ncaa finals were so exciting. Everyone can't stop talking about all the action. 

[152lbs]

The NCAAs will never go freestyle so remove that from the conversation.  UWW will have totally different rule set before the 2032 Games.  Changes happen too fast in international wrestling for the NCAA to keep up.

[Ched64]

I agree that folkstyle is here to stay but were it up to me, I would make two freestyle changes that I believe would make the matches more interesting by encouraging more action.  The first would be pushout points as far too many matches take place at the edges rather than in the center where they belong.  The second would be passivity from neutral in the first period.  It is 3 minutes long and far too many matches end 0-0 after the first given the amount of time they have to work.  I know these have come up before but it would also be one movement in the direction of freestyle without doing away with the mat wrestling that gives folk its own identity.

[152lbs]

Pushout is a terrible rule both for international and domestic folkstyle.  This isn't sumo.

[Ched64]

I disagree as it keeps things moving and doesnt provide refuge.  I think free has it down pretty good right now.  The matches are pretty exciting even between upper world class guys where it could get bogged down without things like pushouts and passivity.  It rewards action.

[mspart]

I think going to the knees to prevent a pushout is not good.   If a guy is pushing you out that doesn't change when you go to your knees.   If you are already taken down, that is a different situation.   I don't mind the pushout, I think it is amazing what they do to avoid it when it is imminent.   But if you aren't going to wrestle hard, you get pushed out and penalized.   Not a problem for me.   Just don't get pushed out.  

mspart

[NormMacDonald]

On 8/11/2024 at 7:59 PM, billyhoyle said:

So do you think if the U.S. switched to Greco/Freestyle, we would be the best in the world at both?

If colleges switched to freestyle and Greco, we’d see scholarships going to a lot of foreign born athletes like what happens in track. I think it would make our Olympic teams better but would make it harder for American born wrestlers to get scholarships. 

[Ched64]

6 minutes ago, mspart said:

I think going to the knees to prevent a pushout is not good.   If a guy is pushing you out that doesn't change when you go to your knees.   If you are already taken down, that is a different situation.   I don't mind the pushout, I think it is amazing what they do to avoid it when it is imminent.   But if you aren't going to wrestle hard, you get pushed out and penalized.   Not a problem for me.   Just don't get pushed out.  

mspart

I agree there but if both guys are on the mat scrambling and they roll out of bounds, then the grounding rule is good. It is just that wrsetlers have adapted their technique when they are headed out and it defeats the purpose of the rule.

[Ched64]

At the end of the day, modern sports is entertainment competing against countless other things for eyes.  The more exciting you can make it the better.

[NormMacDonald]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:36 PM, Scouts Honor said:

wait

singles and doubles and hi C only work in folk?
go behinds only work in folk?

noose series only works in folk?

I saw someone other than DT was folk top work at the olympics... someone from another country.

 

as to the OP

WRESTLING isn't a priority in this nation. let alone freestyle

No but the defense for those shots is so much different in freestyle than in folk. Our guys spend 95% of their wrestling career in a style where they can shoot in and if they expose their back it means nothing. Now they get in elite freestyle tournaments and lose a match because the shoot in and get exposed. I don’t believe it would be the same if they’d spent 95% of their careers in free. 

[NormMacDonald]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:51 PM, Scouts Honor said:

im not sure we have the number of coaches for free/greco

I don’t think we do either. That would take time to build. 

[NormMacDonald]

On 8/12/2024 at 10:16 AM, PortaJohn said:

In my perfect world we would have a system where we'd keep college wrestling as is but incentivize high school wrestlers that  are freestyle studs (example Meyer Shapiro) to forego College Wrestling and train at a RTC on a college campus so they can still obtain a college degree.  The four to five years of folkstyle competition does hinder our development in freestyle at a very important age.  Look at 97kg.  Snyder lost to two studs. One a 22 year old and the other a 21 year old

That’s a really good idea. 

Edited August 15 by NormMacDonald

[PortaJohn]

54 minutes ago, Ched64 said:

I agree that folkstyle is here to stay but were it up to me, I would make two freestyle changes that I believe would make the matches more interesting by encouraging more action.  The first would be pushout points as far too many matches take place at the edges rather than in the center where they belong.  The second would be passivity from neutral in the first period.  It is 3 minutes long and far too many matches end 0-0 after the first given the amount of time they have to work.  I know these have come up before but it would also be one movement in the direction of freestyle without doing away with the mat wrestling that gives folk its own identity.

The push out rule I go back and forth on only because I'd bet top wrestlers will start to release the bottom wrestler near the edge of the mat to game the system for a free point.  Maybe they'd have to reset in the center

[Scouts Honor]

On 8/14/2024 at 2:59 PM, JeanGuy said:

I am a relatively new fan of wrestling. I don't find one any easier to explain to someone than the other. In folk you can watch two guys roll around for 40 seconds and there are no points scored because they are both holding on to a foot. Or as others have said here is a lace and the match is now over.

Neither is made for the uninitiated.

Just embrace that they are different and enjoy both (or all three).

yes.

[Scouts Honor]

13 hours ago, The Kid said:

Obviously freestyle is more popular than folk stall.

Greco and the metric system too. 

 

 

 

 

in the us? 

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, 152lbs said:

The NCAAs will never go freestyle so remove that from the conversation.  UWW will have totally different rule set before the 2032 Games.  Changes happen too fast in international wrestling for the NCAA to keep up.

damn you just jinxed it

[KingOtoguro]

They are one of the top countries and even with two of their biggest names heading towards their last olympic cycle, the overall team was stronger in 2021.  

[152lbs]

Pushout is almost as dumb as the ball grab and two out of three period era.