Post Olympics thoughts

[CHROMEBIRD]

21 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

Did he leave on bad terms or in a shitty way? I can't really remember. 

I don't remember there being any hard feelings between Snyder and the coaches, though I seem to remember it being a factor in Kerk's transfer. I'm sure Tom Ryan was pissed.

[alliseeisgold]

1 hour ago, pokemonster said:

Did he leave on bad terms or in a shitty way? I can't really remember. 

As I recall he just pulled a tiger on Stevie Williams or Mark omeara. 

Basically tervel was as responsible for Snyder developing as cael for Taylor. Sure was a can't miss but heavyweight training guys are rare ....more then that it wasn't a classic coach player relationship more of a best friend relationship and Snyder is on record saying the unique approach of tervel changed his mental approach to wrestling. Pretty much credited his Olympic gold solely to tervel. 

If you noticed tiger was never the same after leaving Stevie Williams.

[alliseeisgold]

Don't believe Snyder ever talks to bo Jordan any ex teammate or Ryan or any Ohio state affiliation at all whatsoever except for rudis where he is a part owner.

Talk about a bad investment. Watching Snyder wrestle is like watching paint dry on a wall. Just a very boring style. 

[Scouts Honor]

did he turn into varnish? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, alliseeisgold said:

Don't believe Snyder ever talks to bo Jordan any ex teammate or Ryan or any Ohio state affiliation at all whatsoever except for rudis where he is a part owner.

Talk about a bad investment. Watching Snyder wrestle is like watching paint dry on a wall. Just a very boring style. 

Snyder owns Rudis? I thought it was 25% each for rowlands, Nancy Schultz, Jeff Jordan, and the old SPG assistant. Is it 20% each with Snyder now?

[alliseeisgold]

4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Snyder owns Rudis? I thought it was 25% each for rowlands, Nancy Schultz, Jeff Jordan, and the old SPG assistant. Is it 20% each with Snyder now?

all i know is post his first olympic gold when nike was involved the only way rudis could sign him was to give him stake in the company. unfortunately, that was snyders peak. From a business standpoint - that is called buying at the top. I would not say he is a very personable marketable guy either like say jb that is a media draw.

The play rudis should of went at that time was spg alum TAylor. His value just skyrocketed. 

of course the ultimate play would be for rudis to go sign a real winner like taz, sadulaev, or penetrate the international scene. With those fans i couldn't imagine how much the brand would increase.

[Takuto_Otoguro]

Can't blame Snyder for leaving. He went from winning worlds and olympics 3 years consecutively and beating Sadulaev ( I know Sad wasn't the best version of himself in 2017) to losing to Sadulaev in 2018 to then losing to old man Sharifov in 2019 who was never a 97kg guy until that year. He saw the Tokyo games were coming up rapidly and his results were declining and wanted a change. It didn't work at all in terms of improvement but I don't blame him for trying.

[sfa_1991]

Hey everyone,

This is my first post here. I'm an Iranian-Austrian living in Germany, and I've been following wrestling for a few years now. Just wanted to share some thoughts:

• Even though Russia wasn't officially competing, they were definitely still in the mix through athletes from Albania, Uzbekistan, Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain. There were basically seven medalists in freestyle wrestling who were from Russia (mostly Dagestan), which honestly made it feel like there were more Russian wrestlers than when they were officially competing.

• Japan is really stepping up in the lighter weight classes. Their culture of discipline, perfectionism, and staying cool under pressure really shines through in their wrestling. They ended up with 8 gold medals across 18 weight classes in freestyle, Greco-Roman, and women’s wrestling.

• I was surprised to see the U.S. wrestlers not as dominant as they've been recently, especially considering how they've been crushing it at the World Championships in the past few years. I'm curious to hear what you all think is behind this. I know it’s a tough question, but still.

• It was tough watching Yazdani, Zare, and Amouzad get silver instead of gold, but overall, I think the Iranian wrestlers did well, grabbing 8 medals across 12 weight classes in freestyle and Greco-Roman. What hurts the most is Yazdani’s injury flaring up at the worst time. I think we were all pumped to see Yazdani vs. Brooks.

Looking forward to hearing what you all think.

[scribers]

9 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

did he turn into varnish? 

It sure does look like he’s taken on some of varner’s style 

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, sfa_1991 said:

Hey everyone,

This is my first post here. I'm an Iranian-Austrian living in Germany, and I've been following wrestling for a few years now. Just wanted to share some thoughts:

• Even though Russia wasn't officially competing, they were definitely still in the mix through athletes from Albania, Uzbekistan, Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain. There were basically seven medalists in freestyle wrestling who were from Russia (mostly Dagestan), which honestly made it feel like there were more Russian wrestlers than when they were officially competing.

• Japan is really stepping up in the lighter weight classes. Their culture of discipline, perfectionism, and staying cool under pressure really shines through in their wrestling. They ended up with 8 gold medals across 18 weight classes in freestyle, Greco-Roman, and women’s wrestling.

• I was surprised to see the U.S. wrestlers not as dominant as they've been recently, especially considering how they've been crushing it at the World Championships in the past few years. I'm curious to hear what you all think is behind this. I know it’s a tough question, but still.

• It was tough watching Yazdani, Zare, and Amouzad get silver instead of gold, but overall, I think the Iranian wrestlers did well, grabbing 8 medals across 12 weight classes in freestyle and Greco-Roman. What hurts the most is Yazdani’s injury flaring up at the worst time. I think we were all pumped to see Yazdani vs. Brooks.

Looking forward to hearing what you all think.

Welcome aboard. Great first post.

As for the US wrestlers in my view:

Spencer Lee - wrestled great, just got out scrambled by the smallest of margins. If they wrestled 10 times, I like his chances to win 5 or 6 times.

Zain Retherford - it is a shame he had a concussion in training, and it certainly showed in that first match. I think it also explains the pre-wrap of the head and the cautious approach.

Kyle Dake - over confidence in his ability to score off the other guy's offense cost him dearly. That he was higher in his stance dis not help either.  The sprint to bronze made me wish he had wrestled like that in his semi.

Aaron Brooks - another close call. I think it all goes back to the bow and arrow. Defending that for so long in such a brutal position took a lot out of him. He then made a very fatigued decision at the end to dive in and try to hold on. No bow, no bad decision.

Kyle Snyder - looked the most cautious to me. I am wondering if a lifetime at, or near the top, is catching up with him.

Mason Parris - made a very bad decision when he gave up the 4. I think he thought he was giving up a step out point and relaxed. Then the deperation set in and he panciked a bit. It snowballed from there. Some rookie mistakes.

 

[BloodRound]

I think what we just witnessed was a "hitting the wall" moment for USA Wrestling.  Don't get me wrong, we have had a great decade+ since JB won gold, and we still had some great performances out of our guys in Paris.  However, any great dynasty has these moments where expectations are not met.  I think that we will see a changing of the guard over the next few years that will hopefully motivate that next step in keeping our usual expectations of championships going.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, sfa_1991 said:

Hey everyone,

This is my first post here. I'm an Iranian-Austrian living in Germany, and I've been following wrestling for a few years now. Just wanted to share some thoughts:

• Even though Russia wasn't officially competing, they were definitely still in the mix through athletes from Albania, Uzbekistan, Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain. There were basically seven medalists in freestyle wrestling who were from Russia (mostly Dagestan), which honestly made it feel like there were more Russian wrestlers than when they were officially competing.

• Japan is really stepping up in the lighter weight classes. Their culture of discipline, perfectionism, and staying cool under pressure really shines through in their wrestling. They ended up with 8 gold medals across 18 weight classes in freestyle, Greco-Roman, and women’s wrestling.

• I was surprised to see the U.S. wrestlers not as dominant as they've been recently, especially considering how they've been crushing it at the World Championships in the past few years. I'm curious to hear what you all think is behind this. I know it’s a tough question, but still.

• It was tough watching Yazdani, Zare, and Amouzad get silver instead of gold, but overall, I think the Iranian wrestlers did well, grabbing 8 medals across 12 weight classes in freestyle and Greco-Roman. What hurts the most is Yazdani’s injury flaring up at the worst time. I think we were all pumped to see Yazdani vs. Brooks.

Looking forward to hearing what you all think.

Welcome aboard! I’ve missed the presence of Uranus fans from our previous forum home. 

[Truzzcat]

I think we should be very encouraged by Japans results this year. They have had very strong results in the age level tournaments in the previous year's predating the United States pretty much dominating the last 2-3 years. My hope is that in 2028 we can have a similar showing that Japan just did because of the investment we have put in our cadet and junior guys.

[ionel]

If we take a look at our best single Olympics and best career Olympics its probably Dan Gable and John Smith.  Why were they so successful, was it because they did a lot of freestyle before or during college, was it because they had a great RTC?  No, it was because they just worked harder that everyone else, Russians included.  Now John did have more access and experience with freestyle, the older brother thing etc. he spent a year on freestyle after So, won Worlds after Jr and Olympics after Sr years.  

In watching the better Japanese what I noted is the were getting to the legs better than us more like Smith.  That said though the sport has changed a lot, everyone has better technique and access to film on opponents etc. yet the Japanese had success.  

Would it make a difference if we switch completely to freestyle?  Maybe slightly for 6 to 10 guys.  However, how would we deal with the mat, referee and review issues for high school and jr high?  And I think it would also significantly reduce fan support at all levels.  How exciting is it going to be to watch a Jr high or HS kid or even college kid win a match by 10 quick push outs or even a takedown and 4 quick turns inside 20 seconds.  There is going to be a much larger difference in skill level will athletes stick with it when only getting 20 seconds of mat time, will they learn takedowns etc. if needing to spend so much time defending the push out.  Gable and Smith were successful, there must be another alternative versus changing the sport for ten of thousands just to maybe benefit 6 guys.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

30 minutes ago, ionel said:

Would it make a difference if we switch completely to freestyle?  Maybe slightly for 6 to 10 guys.  However, how would we deal with the mat, referee and review issues for high school and jr high?  And I think it would also significantly reduce fan support at all levels.  How exciting is it going to be to watch a Jr high or HS kid or even college kid win a match by 10 quick push outs or even a takedown and 4 quick turns inside 20 seconds.  There is going to be a much larger difference in skill level will athletes stick with it when only getting 20 seconds of mat time, will they learn takedowns etc. if needing to spend so much time defending the push out.  Gable and Smith were successful, there must be another alternative versus changing the sport for ten of thousands just to maybe benefit 6 guys.  

I like folkstyle and have no problem sticking with it. However, most of the anti -freestyle arguments confuse me. 
 

“However, how would we deal with the mat, referee and review issues for high school and jr high?”

What mat issues? Use the same mat. 
Referee issues? Not a problem. Use one ref. 
Review issues? Not a problem, no review. Nothing changes. 
 

“How exciting is it going to be to watch a Jr high or HS kid or even college kid win a match by 10 quick push outs or even a takedown and 4 quick turns inside 20 seconds.”

How exciting is it to watch a kid win a match with a takedown and a half Nelson inside 20 seconds?

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

 

What mat issues? Use the same mat. 

So no step out or no danger area to warn of step out?

Referee issues? Not a problem. Use one ref. 
Review issues? Not a problem, no review. Nothing changes. 

Ok
 

“How exciting is it going to be to watch a Jr high or HS kid or even college kid win a match by 10 quick push outs or even a takedown and 4 quick turns inside 20 seconds.”

How exciting is it to watch a kid win a match with a takedown and a half Nelson inside 20 seconds?

Well thats a pin - learn to defend it, bit different than a quick 4 roll leglace.

 

[meZYNbrink]

1. Snyder's wife got in to med school at PSU, which is why he left. Some things in life are bigger than wrestling, and sometimes you have to support the people you love in their careers and pursuits - much like I'm sure Snyder's wife has done for him throughout his career. Life is about compromise and competition is inherently selfish. Snyder is still in a great room, arguably the best room for heavyweights. 

2. It's important to understand the distinction between underperformance and a disappointing performance. Could the US have medaled at 6 weights? Absolutely. Our wrestlers lost to the best in the world. I think the farther away you get from competing, the easier it is to forget how tough winning is. This is the Olympics - sure Russia wasn't there, but this is THE toughest tournament in the world for a reason. Our guys have had near unprecedented success the last few years and have made winning look easy. It's not. That's why we celebrate our Olympians; qualifiers, medalists, and champions.

3. I think Mason losing first round was the biggest shocker, but for those who have paid attention to the scene for a while, these things happen every year, and it's only recently that we've been spoiled with a relatively low amount of upsets. A few years ago and this would've been par for the course for us. The relevant thing is that crazy things happen every year, especially in the Olympics. 

4. Zain's concussions are so disappointing for us as fans of American wrestling. He's on the short list for greatest college wrestlers ever. Dake too. Sometimes things don't go your way, and you don't get tougher than those two. Maybe Spencer Lee. All I can say is I hope that for the guys that continue, they are able to find the motivation, health, and timing to make their dreams a reality. I'm dismayed that our community has put so much blame on their shoulders. 

Bottom line - this sh!t is tough for a reason. Our guys were the best of our best. We are overly familiar with their success and under familiar with the world. Armchair quarterbacking is especially hilarious in our sport, where our B-team is getting teched in the finals of OLY trials and Final X. Let alone the guys that made varsity maybe once or twice in high school and never sniffed D1. Anyone with experience/perspective knows we put our best foot out there and just lost a couple close ones but had success nonetheless. USA Wrestling is still in a great place. LA 28.

Postscript - How about those freaking BADA$$ women?? Also, can we scrap Greco and give those weights back to WFS and MFS?

[meZYNbrink]

Also, I've watched and been an international fan for over a decade. Freestyle is fun. That said, folkstyle is to me a much truer representation of wrestling. Control is control. Action shouldn't stop after 10 seconds of a slowed pace. A 65-35% advantage in folkstyle would be allowed to play out. In FS it's blown dead. Exposure is broken. Leg laces and gut wrenches aren't it. The world won't change for us, but we can imagine a better world where it does. 

 

My 2 cents. I'm biased. Everyone else in the world has an accent.

[Lipdrag]

19 hours ago, meZYNbrink said:

Also, I've watched and been an international fan for over a decade. Freestyle is fun. That said, folkstyle is to me a much truer representation of wrestling. Control is control. Action shouldn't stop after 10 seconds of a slowed pace. A 65-35% advantage in folkstyle would be allowed to play out. In FS it's blown dead. Exposure is broken. Leg laces and gut wrenches aren't it. The world won't change for us, but we can imagine a better world where it does. 

 

My 2 cents. I'm biased. Everyone else in the world has an accent.

This articulated my feeling very well.  A guy rolling across his own back (i.e. pinning himself) while the other wrestler remains sitting and never gets his shoulders closer than 2 feet to the mat does not indicate control at all to me.  Lying on one's stomach and spreading out arms and legs as widely as possible seems to me to be the definition of stalling, not wrestling.  I wish some sort of merge of folk and free could get the best of both - no resting in neutral, top, or bottom.  Control is control and not the result of nearly random dynamic motion.  And I bet that is the most original thought ever stated on this board!

[The Kid]

59 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

This articulated my feeling very well.  A guy rolling across his own back (i.e. pinning himself) while the other wrestler remains sitting and never gets his shoulders closer than 2 feet to the mat does not indicate control at all to me.  Lying on one's stomach and spreading out arms and legs as widely as possible seems to me to be the definition of stalling, not wrestling.  I wish some sort of merge of folk and free could get the best of both - no resting in neutral, top, or bottom.  Control is control and not the result of nearly random dynamic motion.  And I bet that is the most original thought ever stated on this board!

If you stall on bottom in par terre  you're going to get turned like a rag doll.  And if you give up a leg lace, you will be in a world of pain.

[Lipdrag]

55 minutes ago, The Kid said:

If you stall on bottom in par terre  you're going to get turned like a rag doll.  And if you give up a leg lace, you will be in a world of pain.

By stalling I mean not improving one's position.  Not working for hand control.  Not trying to get back to neutral.  I understand that preventing points on bottom takes effort but my concept of stalling on bottom is more aligned with the folk style concept where actively trying to improve your position/situation is required.  It is not sufficient to merely try to stifle the other wrestler's efforts

[meZYNbrink]

2 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

By stalling I mean not improving one's position.  Not working for hand control.  Not trying to get back to neutral.  I understand that preventing points on bottom takes effort but my concept of stalling on bottom is more aligned with the folk style concept where actively trying to improve your position/situation is required.  It is not sufficient to merely try to stifle the other wrestler's efforts

Exactly, never said FS was easier than folk, just that it looks less like wrestling.

[TylerDurden]

24 minutes ago, meZYNbrink said:

Exactly, never said FS was easier than folk, just that it looks less like wrestling.

It looks less like the wrestling that you're most familiar with. 

Free and Folk simply emphasize different aspects of wrestling. Some people prefer one over the other.

[billyhoyle]

21 hours ago, meZYNbrink said:

Also, I've watched and been an international fan for over a decade. Freestyle is fun. That said, folkstyle is to me a much truer representation of wrestling. Control is control. Action shouldn't stop after 10 seconds of a slowed pace. A 65-35% advantage in folkstyle would be allowed to play out. In FS it's blown dead. Exposure is broken. Leg laces and gut wrenches aren't it. The world won't change for us, but we can imagine a better world where it does. 

 

My 2 cents. I'm biased. Everyone else in the world has an accent.

 

2 hours ago, Lipdrag said:

This articulated my feeling very well.  A guy rolling across his own back (i.e. pinning himself) while the other wrestler remains sitting and never gets his shoulders closer than 2 feet to the mat does not indicate control at all to me.  Lying on one's stomach and spreading out arms and legs as widely as possible seems to me to be the definition of stalling, not wrestling.  I wish some sort of merge of folk and free could get the best of both - no resting in neutral, top, or bottom.  Control is control and not the result of nearly random dynamic motion.  And I bet that is the most original thought ever stated on this board!

We don’t even need to change the par terre rules. The only change needed to make to folkstyle is to add a 4 point neutral exposure score. The result will be just as many scrambles, but they won’t involve defensive wrestlers rolling on their own back. Offensive wrestlers will be encouraged to go for throws and also to cleanly finish their leg shots. 

Once a neutral exposure or takedown happens, we can keep wrestling top/bottom exactly as folkstyle does. Exact same techniques and nearfall requirments, and no exposure points unless an escape is awarded (so no exposure points on mat returns).

 

This change will make folkstyle exciting again while maintaining the aspects of it that fans love. It will actually look a bit more like it did in the 80s/90s when throws were more common and stalemates rarer. 

[meZYNbrink]

11 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

 

We don’t even need to change the par terre rules. The only change needed to make to folkstyle is to add a 4 point neutral exposure score. The result will be just as many scrambles, but they won’t involve defensive wrestlers rolling on their own back. Offensive wrestlers will be encouraged to go for throws and also to cleanly finish their leg shots. 

Once a neutral exposure or takedown happens, we can keep wrestling top/bottom exactly as folkstyle does. Exact same techniques and nearfall requirments, and no exposure points unless an escape is awarded (so no exposure points on mat returns).

 

This change will make folkstyle exciting again while maintaining the aspects of it that fans love. It will actually look a bit more like it did in the 80s/90s when throws were more common and stalemates rarer. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but folkstyle (at least NCAA) has the neutral danger takedown. I feel that has really improved the product as far as limiting the amount of Delgado rolls across the back from neutral. And without delving too deep into the 3pt vs 2pt takedown argument, I think it does incentivize takedowns more than ever before. Wrestlers are better than ever and the sport evolves constantly, I don't think we will ever go back to looking exactly like the 80's and 90's, and I don't think we should want to.

13 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

It looks less like the wrestling that you're most familiar with. 

Free and Folk simply emphasize different aspects of wrestling. Some people prefer one over the other.

I've wrestled freestyle since I was a kid. Was never that great at either free or folk but everything is relative. I'm definitely a fan of both and like I've said before, for the last decade+ I've been as locked in to the international scene (seniors, juniors, some cadet events) as I have been to domestic folkstyle competitions. I think I'm familiar with both. Obviously bias plays a role here, but I find it hard to argue that leg laces and gut wrenches are as much a demonstration of control as a 4 second tilt (both exposure points without really attacking for the fall). I like freestyle. I just think it's an inferior product. When you watch a FS match, it feels like you're watching the 100m sprint. Folkstyle feels more like the 1500m (a race most prefer to watch).