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Sadulaev ruled ineligible to compete by UWW panel


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33 minutes ago, peanut said:

Right. I don’t know what the decision is based on. But if it’s based on evidence, statements, and credibility, it’s easy to see how Athlete A might be treated differently than Athlete B.

Yeah I hope I don't seen argumentative or repetitive, but athletes could be treated differently based on evidence, like in a courtroom, but when you're dealing with a bureaucracy its more likely the discrimination is based on perceived trends, image and risk mitigation. 

"Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."

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5 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Interesting that Saduleev has also been suspended in the past for wearing a t-shirt of Imam Shamil, a 19th century Dagestani leader who resisted Russian imperialism for decades.

I did not know that...and that is wild.  Do you know which level he was suspended at (Russian team/UWW/IOC)?

So many wrestlers who make it onto the Russian team have to navigate wild circumstances to do so. 

Edited by wrestle87
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12 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

The IOC seems to have strayed just a bit from these motives...

The IOC and the NCAA seem to inhabit the same aisle at this point.

For any who are unaware, when you compete at the olympics for a country like, Russia, North Korea, or China, you place yourself under the thumb of the government for the rest of your life.  

The trade off is a potentially more comfortable life for you and your extended family, because everybody in your family tree gets taken care of, but you also are required to stand at attention and do as asked when asked.  It is a tradeoff that these athletes make to improve the lives of their families domestically. 

They also, have no choice in the matter.  Once they realize success, they also immediately forfeit the right to have an opinion of any kind (what little was allowed) other than whatever the government's is at the time.  So, they can either say nothing, or, if they are hoping to get a little more money from the next olympic cycle, they can be more outspokenly patriotic like sidakov.  

But do them the human favor of realizing they have no choice at this point.  Athletic success in these countries perches them at the edge of a very high cliff.  The view is spectacular, but they are also one wrong word away from being pushed off that ledge, their families with them.

So, they have no choice.  They can say nothing, or be supportive of whatever the party line is at the time, but to do anything else is literal jail time if not suicide for them, and their families.  This is not an exaggeration.  

Have there been any prominent Russian athletes transfer since the start of the war?  If so, have there been any repercussions from Russia?

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37 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Thanks.  That is pretty ballsy that he wore a shirt like that.  That shirt doesn't exactly mince words. 

I've always been under the impression that the UWW is effectively an extension of Russia's wrestling bureaucracy, or at least heavily influenced by it.  Is there any shred of accuracy to that?

Edited by wrestle87
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16 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

then why is North Korea allowed to participate? Or any authoritarian country. 

There's a distinction between barring a country vs. individual athletes (or both) from participating. The IOC dropped a 2 year ban on NK for pulling out of the Tokyo Olympics, but individual athletes from NK were still allowed to compete under a neutral flag (they just didn't or couldn't). But the IOC has blocked financial assistance to NK's national sport committee because of their nuke testing. It could be some other international governing body imposing sanctions blocking the funding, not sure. I believe the IOC is withholding Olympic development money to Russia and Belarus (it's probably not a lot), dunno who else.

  • Bob 1
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Really need to spice up the Olympics a bit. Shouldn’t let anybody compete unless they pick a side of each world conflict, declare who they’re voting for, and tell us which religion they feel should be wiped off the earth. 

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4 minutes ago, JuanMogen said:

Really need to spice up the Olympics a bit. Shouldn’t let anybody compete unless they pick a side of each world conflict, declare who they’re voting for, and tell us which religion they feel should be wiped off the earth. 

Yes.  We need to know who the good guys are while eliminating the bad guys from sports competition. 

Who decides? We do. 

Edited by The Kid
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1 minute ago, The Kid said:

Yes.  We need to know who the good guys are while eliminating the bad guys from sports competition. 

Who decides? We do. 

you're ruining the joke

"Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."

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1 minute ago, The Kid said:

Yes.  We need to know who the good guys are while eliminating the bad guys from sports competition. 

Who decides? We do. 

Gotta let the bad guys win for a while to build the storyline.

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9 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

you're ruining the joke

The joke is UWW and the Olympic Committee who decides which bombs are the good ones based on a paint scheme. 

Our bombs are great. Their bombs are bad.

Our religion is better because our bombs are bigger!

Edited by The Kid
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4 hours ago, The Kid said:

The joke is UWW and the Olympic Committee who decides which bombs are the good ones based on a paint scheme. 

Our bombs are great. Their bombs are bad.

Our religion is better because our bombs are bigger!

It’s not about religion, although it does play role. It’s about political systems. You cannot have a political system based on free speech, freedom of religion, civil rights, democracy, etc. if you don’t defend it from people who pose a clear and present danger to it.

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4 hours ago, The Kid said:

The joke is UWW and the Olympic Committee who decides which bombs are the good ones based on a paint scheme. 

Our bombs are great. Their bombs are bad.

Our religion is better because our bombs are bigger!

you give off the horrible impression of someone who stumbled upon the complexity of the world late and is now talking about it like they were the first.

  • Bob 4

"Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."

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On 4/4/2024 at 11:24 PM, BAC said:

But as it stands, I think it is actually very simple.  For countries:  don't implement doping programs and don't land-grab.  And if you're an athlete in one of those countries:  don't dope and don't support land-grabbing.  And if you can't do those things, don't come crying to me, since everyone knows you don't take land that isn't yours and you don't take illegal drugs to beat your competitors.  Duh.

My issue is...how the hell do we know what these athletes truly feel?

We've seen Iranian Wrestlers executed. I don't have any clue what the repercussions would be for Sadulaev to turn down an "invitation," at Putins request to show up and be at that "rally." 

 

Where there's not really free speech, it's hard for me to judge the speech of the people too much. That's all. 

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On 4/5/2024 at 7:28 AM, The Kid said:

Why isn't Israel banned from the Olympics using your high end logic?

 

For the same reason that the punishment is different from walking up to a man on the street and beating him(and violently raping his wife) and that man, after being hit every few years for DECADES deciding he's going to stop that man from continuing to punch him...and rape his wife.

 

Can ya understand that "high-end logic?"

 

Also, side note, is there "high end logic," and "low end logic?" Or is it just...logic? Shower thoughts.

Edited by scourge165
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On 4/4/2024 at 7:33 AM, The Kid said:

I'm interested to see if Israel will be banned for their atrocities in Gaza and for bombing the Iranian Embassy in Damascus.

Also, will the USA be ineligible for supporting the apartheid state of Israel?  

On 4/4/2024 at 11:50 AM, uncle bernard said:

So stupid. UWW would never hold America to the same standard. Hell, they don't even hold Iran to that standard when they refuse to wrestle Israel. Or Israel for bombing Gaza, Lebanon, or Syria. Just be consistent with the punishments or don't do it at all. Nick Lee retweeted a tweet saying we should nuke Kabul. Should he be banned for his opinion?

This is such a specious line of thinking. Israel was the victim of terrorist act.  You can argue that their response has been over the top, but there's no argument against them being justified to respond. Russia is invading a neighbor, and Sadulaev is encouraging it/using his platform to support it. What is America doing that comes even close to this? 

On 4/5/2024 at 9:35 AM, peanut said:

Right. Theres a difference in who attacked who first. There’s also a difference in that Israel is a Western ally while Hamas is not. Fair or not, a Western-led political system cannot exist for long if it does not look out for its survival. 

Your post completely ignores that in this case, Russia (and Hamas) were the initial aggressors.  Why some people blame the U.S. for this, I don't know.  Sadulaev has no excuse for his actions-plenty of Russian athletes are keeping quiet or even opposed to the war.  If anything he may be doing this so that he doesn't have to compete in the Olympics and lose.  Instead, he can use the excuse that he was prevented from competing. 

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7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

My issue is...how the hell do we know what these athletes truly feel?

I agree that's hard to know, but the bigger question for UWW (or really the IOC) is: what do we do about potentially blameless athletes in a country has violated the rules of participation and merits exclusion?

The current approach merely requires a lack of evidence of the athlete's support of that position.  It means that boneheads like Sadulaev who attend a pro-war rally won't be able to compete at the Olympics, but virtually every other athlete from that country will.  And so Russia will be there, at least 99% of it, just not in name.  

A more robust ferreting-out would require individual athletes to affirmatively disavow under oath their country's prohibited practices (e.g. in Russia's case, doping or invading Ukraine).  That's still over-inclusive (as many will like), but better guards against the exception swallowing the rule.  That'll never happen, due to concerns that it puts a target on those athletes' back.  

Some have suggested an even narrower exception, where athletes must provide affirmative evidence of resistance against the prohibited practice.  I think that's a non-starter for the same reason as above.

The cleanest answer is to just not allow any exceptions.  I admit I'm partial to this solution.  Not just for the reason you state -- how could we possibly know what's in the heart of individual athletes? -- but also because bans are toothless if almost all of that country's athletes get to go anyway.  It puts no real pressure on the violating country, as the individual athletes really couldn't give a darn if they get to wear the Russian uniform or not, as long as they get to compete and try to win a medal. But if the result was full banishment, then that creates *enormous* pressure within the country, from athletes as well as their supporters and millions of fans, against the government to change their practices.  You can say that's unfair to the individual athletes, but I'd say their remedy lies in defection and establishing citizenship elsewhere, preferably under rules established by the IOC (including residency in new country plus abandonment of prior citizenship) so that the privileged isn't abused (as it has been by Russia and its sister -stan countries in the past).

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On 4/6/2024 at 11:25 AM, Hammerlock3 said:

you give off the horrible impression of someone who stumbled upon the complexity of the world late and is now talking about it like they were the first.

What is complex?  Israel just bombed an Iranian Embassy in Syria. 

Why are they allowed to compete? 

Russia doesn't want NATO on their border. Why can't they defend themselves against Western aggression.

 

The USA is funding the war for Ukraine and they embezzle as much money as possible for a peace treated is enacted.  

But, yeah, we're the good guys.  They're the bad guys???

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12 minutes ago, The Kid said:

What is complex?  Israel just bombed an Iranian Embassy in Syria. 

Why are they allowed to compete? 

Russia doesn't want NATO on their border. Why can't they defend themselves against Western aggression.

 

The USA is funding the war for Ukraine and they embezzle as much money as possible for a peace treated is enacted.  

But, yeah, we're the good guys.  They're the bad guys???

oh now I see you're just misinformed.

  • Bob 2

"Half measures are a coward's form of insanity."

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“Agree with my politics or you don’t get to compete” is a ***ducking** stupid philosophy for the Olympics. Who gets to decide which political opinions get you DQd and which don’t?

No I don’t support Russia in the Ukraine. 

  • Fire 1
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i mean, the guy hated russia and now loves russia...

what gives?

how long before trump supporters are deemed ineligible? how long before biden supporters are banned? 

i agree with Norm.

The olympics are sport.. not politics. I blame carter

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