PSU 125

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:43 PM, wrestle87 said:

If that was the only point of the tournament there would be no wrestlebacks and wrestlers and coaches wouldn’t be losing their minds during quarters and the blood round. 

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Now back to the original point. Isn't 133 the exact same under Sanderson as 141?

[Antitroll2828]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:49 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

But they didn't, and the reason they didn't was that Spencer felt that Iowa had shown better success amongst lightweights than anywhere else.  (Also, Iowa didn't use negative recruiting...)

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Actually is because penn state had nick Suriano already so they didn’t recruit spencer 

[Plasmodium]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:21 PM, Antitroll2828 said:

Actually is because penn state had nick Suriano already so they didn’t recruit spencer 

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Also, hard to believe PSU reduces itself to negative recruiting at this point.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:21 PM, Antitroll2828 said:

Actually is because penn state had nick Suriano already so they didn’t recruit spencer 

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Except for the part about this statement being 100% false, you are absolutely correct.

Larry Lee on Spencer's recruiting:

• You have a son that is one of the top high school recruits in the country– walk us through the END of the decision-making process–It gets narrowed down to a couple of different schools — what happens from there? What role did you and your wife play in the decision–or did you leave it entirely to him?

It was important to us that Spencer made his own decision. I’m a spreadsheet type of person, so I helped him do research on each school. I answered questions for him. We looked at academics, majors, graduation rates, rankings, etc. I put every factor he considered into a spreadsheet to refer to after each visit. When he would come home, he would talk, and I would type up notes so that he wouldn’t forget. He quickly narrowed his choices to Penn State and Iowa. I used to go for walks with Spencer, and we would talk about where he was at in the process. Again, to be candid, he waffled more than a few times. Toward the end, he would ask me, “what do you think, where do you think I should go, do you have a favorite?” I would tell him that it’s not my choice; it’s yours. 

He would often say, “Why won’t you tell me what you think.” 

I told him that I couldn’t because it has to be his decision.  

I do want to say that he was under so much pressure to pick Penn State. He heard it from his teachers, classmates, neighbors, etc. Coach Sanderson was relentless as well. Because Penn State was so close, Spencer visited the campus six times during the process. He visited Iowa three times. The Penn State staff often found their way to his school or Young Gun workouts to observe or to be a presence. Once, when Spencer visited Penn State, he walked into the practice room and found every athlete on the team, including the coaches, wearing pajama pants in recognition of his visit. As you know, in high school, Spencer always wore pajama pants to warm-up. It was a great move and spoke to how hard Penn State worked to recruit him.  

Because the rules aren’t what they are now, we paid for each visit to the schools. We wanted Spencer to have full access, so our role was to provide that access and support him as he went through his decision-making process.  

• So obviously we know how the story ended up– and Hawkeye fans are thrilled to say the least- how did it play out– did Spencer come home from practice one day and say– Dad– I’m choosing the Hawkeyes?

No one knows this, but he did go back and forth. Every time he would lean one way or the other, I told him to sleep on it and give a little time.  

He would often come back and say, “I don’t know.” 

He truly struggled. One day he told me he had made his decision. He said something that I will never forget. I asked, “Which one?”  

He told me, “Choosing Penn State was the easy decision, but Iowa was the right decision.” 

I asked him what he meant, and he said, “Going to Penn State would make everyone happy. I love wrestling for the state of PA and I’ve always been a PA boy. I’ve wrestled for the state at every level, Schoolboy, Cadet, Junior, PIAA’s. Penn State has a great team and will be the favorites to win team titles. I know everyone on the Penn State team. I’ve been teammates with a bunch of those guys through Young Guns. I get along with all of them. I’d be closer to home and you guys. It would be so much easier for you to attend my matches. I was a roommate on my first world team with Bo Nickal, on another world team with both Mark Hall and Anthony Cassar. But for me to achieve my long-term goals, I know that Iowa is the right choice even if it’s not as comfortable. Terry and Tom coach each person to their talents and skills. When I visited and watched practices, it was apparent that they are the right coaches for me. I know that for me to have a chance at 4 NCAA titles, and World and Olympic Teams. The easy choice isn’t the right choice. Dad, I’m going to become a Hawkeye.”   

https://hawkeyewrestlingclub.com/larry-lee/

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:28 PM, Plasmodium said:

Also, hard to believe PSU reduces itself to negative recruiting at this point.

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"at this point."

[PortaJohn]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:30 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It was important to us that Spencer made his own decision. I’m a spreadsheet type of person, so I helped him do research on each school. I answered questions for him. We looked at academics, majors, graduation rates, rankings, etc. I put every factor he considered into a spreadsheet to refer to after each visit.

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So @Wrestleknownothing is actually Larry Lee?

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:34 PM, PortaJohn said:

So @Wrestleknownothing is actually Larry Lee?

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I am having a hard time reading this, my glasses are broken....oops, I have said too much.

[ionel]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:47 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

I am having a hard time reading this, my glasses are broken....oops, I have said too much.

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I now have this image burnt into my mind of Wkn wearing nothing but a speedo and broken glasses.  Please help me MP!  

[wrestle87]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:59 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Now back to the original point. Isn't 133 the exact same under Sanderson as 141?

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Close but still no for me bc Zain started at 141, giving that weight a lot more establishment and roads to success.  

My analysis is if I had a child at this weight, where do I think they would be most likely to reach the pinnacle of the sport? 

Having typed that, I have to grenade all of this and ask…do we factor gilman’s growth into this? 

[nhs67]

  On 11/14/2023 at 4:51 PM, wrestle87 said:

Close but still no for me bc Zain started at 141, giving that weight a lot more establishment and roads to success.  

My analysis is if I had a child at this weight, where do I think they would be most likely to reach the pinnacle of the sport? 

Having typed that, I have to grenade all of this and ask…do we factor gilman’s growth into this? 

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Not sure.  He is a good example of Freestyle =/= Folkstyle due to his tenacious style - which a lot of folks to attribute to the 'Iowa' style mentality.

That said, I do think that the WC version of Gillman absolutely destroys the World Silver version of him at Iowa.  He has grown a lot at Penn State.

[Gus]

Do we really think that PSU is able to effectively train 133/141/149 pounders but are unable to effectively train 125 pounders? That doesn't make any sense. Sometimes there are just random events that take place that are out of the control of the coaches and the results do not make sense. Not everything is linear. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 11/14/2023 at 4:55 PM, nhs67 said:

Not sure.  He is a good example of Freestyle =/= Folkstyle due to his tenacious style - which a lot of folks to attribute to the 'Iowa' style mentality.

That said, I do think that the WC version of Gillman absolutely destroys the World Silver version of him at Iowa.  He has grown a lot at Penn State.

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GROWN indeed.

And how would 2023 WTT Gilman have done against HWC World silver Gilman?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 11/14/2023 at 4:58 PM, Gus said:

Do we really think that PSU is able to effectively train 133/141/149 pounders but are unable to effectively train 125 pounders? That doesn't make any sense. Sometimes there are just random events that take place that are out of the control of the coaches and the results do not make sense. Not everything is linear. 

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BTW RBY looking pretty lean lately in his 57 kg prep.  Almost similar to  TJ Dillahaw for his Cejudo fight...

[1032004]

  On 11/14/2023 at 4:58 PM, Gus said:

Do we really think that PSU is able to effectively train 133/141/149 pounders but are unable to effectively train 125 pounders? That doesn't make any sense. Sometimes there are just random events that take place that are out of the control of the coaches and the results do not make sense. Not everything is linear. 

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Yeah I thought the "Suriano curse" thing was more of a joke but people seem to be actually thinking PSU somehow isn't as good at training 125's as every other weight?   

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 11/14/2023 at 5:36 PM, 1032004 said:

Yeah I thought the "Suriano curse" thing was more of a joke but people seem to be actually thinking PSU somehow isn't as good at training 125's as every other weight?   

 

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Do people somehow think that wrestling at heavyweight looks like a 125 match?

I think that mostly it comes down to recruiting and this would also include recruiting people who are going to stay out of trouble and be able to maintain 125 lbs while wrestling effectively for a good portion of their career.  They haven't had this type of guy on their team since Megaludis.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[1032004]

  On 11/14/2023 at 5:38 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Do people somehow think that wrestling at heavyweight looks like a 125 match?

I think that mostly it comes down to recruiting and this would also include recruiting people who are going to stay out of trouble and be able to maintain 125 lbs while wrestling effectively for a good portion of their career.  They haven't had this type of guy on their team since Megaludis.

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But as has been stated, they have also had success at 133 & 141, and helped Gilman become a world champion at 57kg.

Suriano would have fit that description if he didn't transfer, and because of Suriano they didn't have a legitimate replacement for a couple years after.

I assume you're alluding to Teasdale with "staying out of trouble," and yes he's certainly a guy they missed on.

IIRC, Teske (despite being a 4x champ) wasn't necessarily a top recruit?  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 11/14/2023 at 6:02 PM, 1032004 said:

But as has been stated, they have also had success at 133 & 141, and helped Gilman become a world champion at 57kg.

Suriano would have fit that description if he didn't transfer, and because of Suriano they didn't have a legitimate replacement for a couple years after.

I assume you're alluding to Teasdale with "staying out of trouble," and yes he's certainly a guy they missed on.

IIRC, Teske (despite being a 4x champ) wasn't necessarily a top recruit?  

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Suriano did NOT fit that description.  He  couldn't effectively stay healthy enough to start and be an All-American at 125 for all 4(5) years, and was also more than willing to move up to 133 due to the presence of Spencer Lee.

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 11/14/2023 at 4:51 PM, wrestle87 said:

Close but still no for me bc Zain started at 141, giving that weight a lot more establishment and roads to success.  

My analysis is if I had a child at this weight, where do I think they would be most likely to reach the pinnacle of the sport? 

Having typed that, I have to grenade all of this and ask…do we factor gilman’s growth into this? 

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I included Retherford's one year at 141 in the totals.

But if you give 141 credit for what Retherford did at 149, then 149 becomes weaker than 133. And if you use the same logic for Molinaro, 149 becomes weaker than 125.

I do not factor Gilman in because if there was any growth it happened post-collegiately which makes it real hard to compare baby face Gilman to the current version.

 

[1032004]

  On 11/14/2023 at 6:11 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Suriano did NOT fit that description.  He  couldn't effectively stay healthy enough to start and be an All-American at 125 for all 4(5) years, and was also more than willing to move up to 133 due to the presence of Spencer Lee.

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He wrestled 125 as a senior.

What injuries did he have besides the ankle injury against Picc and infection he got recovering from it?  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

  On 11/14/2023 at 6:17 PM, 1032004 said:

He wrestled 125 as a senior.

What injuries did he have besides the ankle injury against Picc and infection he got recovering from it?  

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The infection and the ankle injury were two different situations.  So that is two cases of not staying healthy, thanks for reminding me. 125 looks like it was even a worse idea.

He comes back for his last year, when it is clear that Spencer is not a factor, and decides that he is a 125 again while wrestling an extremely abbreviated season. 

Also has had trouble staying healthy/optimally effective at 57 kg scratch for more than a ranking tourney here or there.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[JimmyCinnabon]

  On 11/14/2023 at 5:36 PM, 1032004 said:

Yeah I thought the "Suriano curse" thing was more of a joke but people seem to be actually thinking PSU somehow isn't as good at training 125's as every other weight?   

 

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I don't think it has to do with wrestling and more that it's just very difficult to find an elite 125lber. How many 18+ year olds do you know that can make 125lbs? And then you have to narrow those people down to guys who wrestle. And then from there it's guy who wrestle and are D1 quality. And then it's finding the best of those guys. And then you deal with guys who legit can make 125lbs because they are just small guys, making it difficult to compete with guys who are cutting 15lbs-20lbs to make 125lbs while they are trying their hardest to get as close to 125lbs as possible so that when they wrestle they aren't giving up 15lbs to a guy who is cutting. 125lbs is, in my opinion, the hardest to recruit with heavyweight being second.

Edited November 14, 2023 by JimmyCinnabon

[Gus]

  On 11/14/2023 at 6:29 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The infection and the ankle injury were two different situations.  So that is two cases of not staying healthy, thanks for reminding me. 125 looks like it was even a worse idea.

He comes back for his last year, when it is clear that Spencer is not a factor, and decides that he is a 125 again while wrestling an extremely abbreviated season. 

Also has had trouble staying healthy/optimally effective at 57 kg scratch for more than a ranking tourney here or there.

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Dude, Suriano was a NQ @ 125 (MFF due to injuries), 2nd @ 125, 1st @ 133, 1st @ 125.. He was a stud. Career record of 86-7 and the "worst" loss of his career was to DeSanto. 

[TylerDurden]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:30 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Except for the part about this statement being 100% false, you are absolutely correct.

Larry Lee on Spencer's recruiting:

• You have a son that is one of the top high school recruits in the country– walk us through the END of the decision-making process–It gets narrowed down to a couple of different schools — what happens from there? What role did you and your wife play in the decision–or did you leave it entirely to him?

It was important to us that Spencer made his own decision. I’m a spreadsheet type of person, so I helped him do research on each school. I answered questions for him. We looked at academics, majors, graduation rates, rankings, etc. I put every factor he considered into a spreadsheet to refer to after each visit. When he would come home, he would talk, and I would type up notes so that he wouldn’t forget. He quickly narrowed his choices to Penn State and Iowa. I used to go for walks with Spencer, and we would talk about where he was at in the process. Again, to be candid, he waffled more than a few times. Toward the end, he would ask me, “what do you think, where do you think I should go, do you have a favorite?” I would tell him that it’s not my choice; it’s yours. 

He would often say, “Why won’t you tell me what you think.” 

I told him that I couldn’t because it has to be his decision.  

I do want to say that he was under so much pressure to pick Penn State. He heard it from his teachers, classmates, neighbors, etc. Coach Sanderson was relentless as well. Because Penn State was so close, Spencer visited the campus six times during the process. He visited Iowa three times. The Penn State staff often found their way to his school or Young Gun workouts to observe or to be a presence. Once, when Spencer visited Penn State, he walked into the practice room and found every athlete on the team, including the coaches, wearing pajama pants in recognition of his visit. As you know, in high school, Spencer always wore pajama pants to warm-up. It was a great move and spoke to how hard Penn State worked to recruit him.  

Because the rules aren’t what they are now, we paid for each visit to the schools. We wanted Spencer to have full access, so our role was to provide that access and support him as he went through his decision-making process.  

• So obviously we know how the story ended up– and Hawkeye fans are thrilled to say the least- how did it play out– did Spencer come home from practice one day and say– Dad– I’m choosing the Hawkeyes?

No one knows this, but he did go back and forth. Every time he would lean one way or the other, I told him to sleep on it and give a little time.  

He would often come back and say, “I don’t know.” 

He truly struggled. One day he told me he had made his decision. He said something that I will never forget. I asked, “Which one?”  

He told me, “Choosing Penn State was the easy decision, but Iowa was the right decision.” 

I asked him what he meant, and he said, “Going to Penn State would make everyone happy. I love wrestling for the state of PA and I’ve always been a PA boy. I’ve wrestled for the state at every level, Schoolboy, Cadet, Junior, PIAA’s. Penn State has a great team and will be the favorites to win team titles. I know everyone on the Penn State team. I’ve been teammates with a bunch of those guys through Young Guns. I get along with all of them. I’d be closer to home and you guys. It would be so much easier for you to attend my matches. I was a roommate on my first world team with Bo Nickal, on another world team with both Mark Hall and Anthony Cassar. But for me to achieve my long-term goals, I know that Iowa is the right choice even if it’s not as comfortable. Terry and Tom coach each person to their talents and skills. When I visited and watched practices, it was apparent that they are the right coaches for me. I know that for me to have a chance at 4 NCAA titles, and World and Olympic Teams. The easy choice isn’t the right choice. Dad, I’m going to become a Hawkeye.”   

https://hawkeyewrestlingclub.com/larry-lee/

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In retrospect...

I kid. I kid.

Seriously, I applaud this approach to recruiting by Mr. Lee. Spencer needed to make his own decision - even if this version of the process is a bit romanticized for the target audience.  

 

[1032004]

  On 11/14/2023 at 6:29 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The infection and the ankle injury were two different situations.  So that is two cases of not staying healthy, thanks for reminding me. 125 looks like it was even a worse idea.

He comes back for his last year, when it is clear that Spencer is not a factor, and decides that he is a 125 again while wrestling an extremely abbreviated season. 

Also has had trouble staying healthy/optimally effective at 57 kg scratch for more than a ranking tourney here or there.

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Sorry yea the Infection was different. But he still made the national finals that year… what injuries has he had internationally besides testing positive for Covid?

[nhs67]

  On 11/14/2023 at 5:32 PM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

GROWN indeed.

And how would 2023 WTT Gilman have done against HWC World silver Gilman?

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I think 2023 WTT Gilman destroys the HWC one as well.

He isn't regressing.  He was gameplanned for.