Progressives vs liberals

[Plasmodium]

I don't think there is any questioning the upper echelon of any society has it better than the rest.

[Plasmodium]

2 hours ago, mspart said:

You have demonstrated nothing of the sort. 

mspart

We definitely have.

[Paul158]

4 hours ago, jross said:

Uncle's comment supports that China strives to do what it says in its constitution.  We've been talking now about Deng Xiaoping Theory.  

China is ruled by a single majority party that suppresses political consent and criticism... as it favors the CCP political party and the "collective" taking precedence over individual liberties.  It spies on its citizens and censures... showing elements of authoritarianism and totalitarianism.  State-owned enterprises in China are still common and often have monopolies...

You can point out that different ideologies overlap, but much of the ascribed country behavior fits Communism... the party name is Communism... the constitution says Communism... 

Or .If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck. its a duck

[Husker_Du]

we're talking about Uncle Bernard here.

who said 'Bernie's not a socialist'.

i said, he describes himself as a socialist.

he said, 'doesn't matter. he's not'

[Plasmodium]

25 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

we're talking about Uncle Bernard here.

who said 'Bernie's not a socialist'.

i said, he describes himself as a socialist.

he said, 'doesn't matter. he's not'

The Bern, who is awesome, labels himself a democratic socialist.  Straight from the horses mouth.

https://time.com/4121126/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/

[GreatWhiteNorth]

4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

we're talking about Uncle Bernard here.

who said 'Bernie's not a socialist'.

i said, he describes himself as a socialist.

he said, 'doesn't matter. he's not'

I don't know Uncle Bernard, but he posts like an angry child.

Therefore, per Sherlock Holmes advice, my guess is that he's an angry child.

... which is fine, kids are welcome here too.

[mspart]

 

 

mspart

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by mspart

[uncle bernard]

18 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

The Bern, who is awesome, labels himself a democratic socialist.  Straight from the horses mouth.

https://time.com/4121126/bernie-sanders-democratic-socialism/

@Husker_Du thinks this means he wants to seize the means of production.

Bernie can call himself what he wants. Doesn't change the fact he's a moderate Scandinavian style social democrat. 

[Husker_Du]

i do not think that nor ever said that.

i can show the DM's, which i accurately described above.

he's a socialist. everyone considers him a sociailst. all his policies are socialist. and he calls himself a socialist.

which still isn't good enough for ol' 'Nard Dog, who knows better.

[Plasmodium]

15 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

i do not think that nor ever said that.

i can show the DM's, which i accurately described above.

he's a socialist. everyone considers him a sociailst. all his policies are socialist. and he calls himself a socialist.

which still isn't good enough for ol' 'Nard Dog, who knows better.

The state controlling the means of production is a cardinal tenet of socialism, so it is implied when you said the Bern is a socialist.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Plasmodium

[uncle bernard]

16 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

i do not think that nor ever said that.

i can show the DM's, which i accurately described above.

he's a socialist. everyone considers him a sociailst. all his policies are socialist. and he calls himself a socialist.

which still isn't good enough for ol' 'Nard Dog, who knows better.

Is North Korea a "Democratic People's Republic?"

 

[uncle bernard]

16 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

i do not think that nor ever said that.

i can show the DM's, which i accurately described above.

he's a socialist. everyone considers him a sociailst. all his policies are socialist. and he calls himself a socialist.

which still isn't good enough for ol' 'Nard Dog, who knows better.

Maybe the better way to think about it is Bernie is well within the political mainstream of the Western world. His most radical policies are things that have been in place in every other developed country for decades. Not only do those countries have those things, namely socialized healthcare, but they are immensely popular and even Conservative parties wouldn't dream of taking them away. Are the Tories socialists? Hell, even Bernie's healthcare ideas are far more conservative than what the UK has had in place for 75 years.

You see "socialist" and think Stalin and Mao when he's just a standard Labour party member or Canadian Liberal.

[jross]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Is North Korea a "Democratic People's Republic?"

They might be according to their own interpretation of democratic and republic words.  It is propoganda to me.

Their constitution clarifies who they are.


---------

Socialist Constitution of The Democratic People's Republic of Korea

Preamble

The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is the socialist State of Juche where the ideas of the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung and the great leader Comrade Kim Jong Il on State building and their exploits in it are applied.

...The great leader Comrade Kim Jong Il developed in-depth and an all-round way the immortal Juche idea authored by the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung, created a new history of miracles and changes in all fields of socialist construction under the banner of modeling the whole society on Kimilsungism...

In the face of the collapse of the world socialist system and the vicious offensive of the imperialist allied forces to stifle the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the great leader Comrade Kim Jong Il administered Songun politics; thus he safeguarded with honor the achievements of socialism which are the precious legacy of the great leader Comrade Kim Il Sung, developed the DPRK into an invincible politico-ideological power, a nuclear state and an unchallengeable military power, and opened a broad avenue for the building of a powerful socialist country.

...

Article 1. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is an independent socialist State representing the interests of all the Korean people...

Article 5. All State organs in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea are formed and function on the principle of democratic centralism (a socialist/communist association)

Article 11. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea shall conduct all activities under the leadership of the Workers’ Party of Korea...

Article 21. ...There is no limit to the property which the State can own. All natural resources, railways, air transport service, post and telecommunications establishments, as well as major factories and enterprises, ports and banks of the country are owned solely by the State...

Article 24. ...Private property is derived from socialist distribution according to work done and from supplementary benefits granted by the State and society. The products of individual sideline activities including those from kitchen gardens, as well as income from other legal economic activities shall also be private property...

[PortaJohn]

The bigger question is, is @uncle bernard an uncle?  He claims to be but has never verified with sufficient evidence that he has either a nephew or a niece.   

[Plasmodium]

1 minute ago, PortaJohn said:

The bigger question is, is @uncle bernard an uncle?  He claims to be but has never verified with sufficient evidence that he has either a nephew or a niece.   

Perhaps his uncle Bernard lives vicariously

[uncle bernard]

18 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

The bigger question is, is @uncle bernard an uncle?  He claims to be but has never verified with sufficient evidence that he has either a nephew or a niece.   

A perfect example of someone claiming a label that doesn't actually represent them!

[jross]

Yes and also a perfect example where words have multiple meanings to different people.

Indians (and Asians) refer to elders as uncle like a few still use sir in America.  Respect.

[ThreePointTakedown]

Should the healthcare industry and the health insurance industries be for-profit organizations? Able to sell stock? Pay out dividends? Be motivated by profit for investors over quantity and quality of service? 

Utility companies too? Not charities but less of an incentive for profit over progress for their customers. 

[Bigbrog]

18 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Should the healthcare industry and the health insurance industries be for-profit organizations? Able to sell stock? Pay out dividends? Be motivated by profit for investors over quantity and quality of service? 

Utility companies too? Not charities but less of an incentive for profit over progress for their customers. 

Yes.  Except "Be motivated by profit for investors over quantity and quality of service?" as this is completely a made-up statement that for some reason you want to be true.  Every healthcare facility and hospital (all private) I have ever worked for or had to be a patient at were motivated first by the care of the patient....hands down!!  Why???  Because that is what drives profit!!!  Are prices souring up and up for healthcare...absolutely....but the reasons why have nothing to do with those greedy people running the hospital and clinics like the story you make up in your head.

[ThreePointTakedown]

47 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Yes.  Except "Be motivated by profit for investors over quantity and quality of service?" as this is completely a made-up statement that for some reason you want to be true.  Every healthcare facility and hospital (all private) I have ever worked for or had to be a patient at were motivated first by the care of the patient....hands down!!  Why???  Because that is what drives profit!!!  Are prices souring up and up for healthcare...absolutely....but the reasons why have nothing to do with those greedy people running the hospital and clinics like the story you make up in your head.

Ok. Take it a step further. You brought it up but didn't address it. Why are prices soaring? 

While you're doing that. I also mentioned health insurance companies. Many not private. Motivated by profit. Other than the ACA handcuffing them to spend a certain percentage on care they would otherwise look to make as much money as possible. All while trying to avoid two things: getting sued, or getting bad enough press that their bottom line takes a hit. Things that any other public company would do. 

Hospitals may be private. But you cannot tell me that they have the best interest of their patients at the forefront of their mind. The Catholic hospitals that own a significant portion of beds in the country refuse certain procedures when the person giving birth and/or the baby is in life threatening danger. If you are a hospital and you have less than an 100% commitment to do whatever is necessary/possible to do NO HARM, then you are not looking out for the best interest of your patients and therefore not living up to the ideals of someone in the hospital business. 

Made up? As Thor said, 'all words are made up' but what is said is a real thing. Sorry. Fiduciaries have to put the interest of their customers first versus their own financial benefit or at least have to be able to prove they tried. Why can't a hospital or insurance company be held to a similar standard? 

[Plasmodium]

1 hour ago, Bigbrog said:

Yes.  Except "Be motivated by profit for investors over quantity and quality of service?" as this is completely a made-up statement that for some reason you want to be true.  Every healthcare facility and hospital (all private) I have ever worked for or had to be a patient at were motivated first by the care of the patient....hands down!!  Why???  Because that is what drives profit!!!  Are prices souring up and up for healthcare...absolutely....but the reasons why have nothing to do with those greedy people running the hospital and clinics like the story you make up in your head.

QOS drives profits?  You don't believe that.   I have never once felt like I had control over a medical transaction.  You take what you get.   You can shop a doctor around, but not a medical facility.  It is law that drives QOS in the medical industry.

 

[jross]

20 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Should the healthcare industry and the health insurance industries be for-profit organizations? Able to sell stock? Pay out dividends? Be motivated by profit for investors over quantity and quality of service? 

While there are good outcomes for not-for-profit healthcare... Why do vets prefer healthcare outside the VA?  Why do foreigners come to America for treatment?  (time and quality)

Yes, the healthcare and insurance industries should include for-profit organizations (and non profits). 

As a consumer, my biggest beef with the healthcare industry is the lack of price transparency.  I often can't shop around for care and don't know prices until the after-care bill is presented.  Price transparency allows for price shopping which drives the competition that drives the highest quality for the cheapest price.

Healthcare is largely profiting off treating sick people rather than keeping people healthy.  The insurance incentives for value-based outcome payments are a move in the right direction.

[WrestlingRasta]

19 hours ago, jross said:

While there are good outcomes for not-for-profit healthcare... Why do vets prefer healthcare outside the VA?  Why do foreigners come to America for treatment?  (time and quality)

Yes, the healthcare and insurance industries should include for-profit organizations (and non profits). 

As a consumer, my biggest beef with the healthcare industry is the lack of price transparency.  I often can't shop around for care and don't know prices until the after-care bill is presented.  Price transparency allows for price shopping which drives the competition that drives the highest quality for the cheapest price.

Healthcare is largely profiting off treating sick people rather than keeping people healthy.  The insurance incentives for value-based outcome payments are a move in the right direction.

Explain value based outcome payments to me like I’m an idiot…..cuz I am. 
 

Sidenote: don’t know a lot about the ins and outs of this topic. But I do know that the people on the patient care level…..unfortunately I’ve had to spend last couple years in the ‘care’ roll at home and the people on the floor in the hospitals and facilities, they are the real ones, the chosen ones. What they do day in and day out…heavy heavy level of gratitude. 

[Offthemat]

 

[jross]

4 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Explain value based outcome payments to me like I’m an idiot…..cuz I am. 

It changes the profit model from treating sickness to preventing sickness.

——

Imagine a primary care doctor agrees to a value-based payment arrangement. They receive $1,000 per patient per year from the insurance company. If they have 500 patients, they earn $500,000 a year ($1,000 x 500 patients).

Now, in this model, their income is not tied to the number of tests or treatments. Instead, they're focused on keeping their patients healthy. If they successfully keep their patients healthy and avoid expensive hospitalizations or procedures, they may earn an additional bonus. Let's say they manage to save $50,000 in healthcare costs by emphasizing preventive care and good management. In this case, they might get a bonus of, let's say, 20% of the savings, which is $10,000.

As one example as a patient, your provider may start initiating communication to you to coordinate physicals, screenings, vaccinations, chronic disease monitoring, health education, etc.

Its like having a loving momma remind you to brush your teeth,  cash for As, and dad saying come outside and play catch…

less cavities, less Fs, less fat…

https://catalyst.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/CAT.17.0558