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jross

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4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Are we so poorly educated the treatment of Native Americans isn't even considered history?

The original post to which I was replying did not essentialize Indians within the relative roles of our country.

There are many premises in this question.  "are we poorly educated"  Yes.  Definitely.  But not for the reason it seems you are implying.  Human migrations have happened since . . . wait for it . . . there have been humans.  Indians, no less than any other set of humans, migrated.  And, when they came across other humans in their way they gave options to those other humans:  1 - go away.  2 - merge with us.  3 - die or kill us to keep your land.  The Indians killed, tortured, raped, subjugated, enslaved, took land, pushed out, broke treaties etc. etc. with and to each other for the length and breadth of their history.  They simply encountered a couple of forces which they could not overcome.  European germs and European's ability to migrate, organize, and enforce their will through the clash of a stone age hunter-gatherer culture with an agricultural & pre-industrial one.  Note that in MesoAmerica the clash was much different.  The Indians there were agricultural and had huge political centers but still succumbed to Euro germs and Europeeps.  There, however, the Indians chose more of an option 2 (merge) approach.  It would be good to teach that history so that everyone can be better educated.  Not to sugar coat anything.  But also not to talk about "treatment" as if the Indians were children.

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7 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

The original post to which I was replying did not essentialize Indians within the relative roles of our country.

There are many premises in this question.  "are we poorly educated"  Yes.  Definitely.  But not for the reason it seems you are implying.  Human migrations have happened since . . . wait for it . . . there have been humans.  Indians, no less than any other set of humans, migrated.  And, when they came across other humans in their way they gave options to those other humans:  1 - go away.  2 - merge with us.  3 - die or kill us to keep your land.  The Indians killed, tortured, raped, subjugated, enslaved, took land, pushed out, broke treaties etc. etc. with and to each other for the length and breadth of their history.  They simply encountered a couple of forces which they could not overcome.  European germs and European's ability to migrate, organize, and enforce their will through the clash of a stone age hunter-gatherer culture with an agricultural & pre-industrial one.  Note that in MesoAmerica the clash was much different.  The Indians there were agricultural and had huge political centers but still succumbed to Euro germs and Europeeps.  There, however, the Indians chose more of an option 2 (merge) approach.  It would be good to teach that history so that everyone can be better educated.  Not to sugar coat anything.  But also not to talk about "treatment" as if the Indians were children.

How should Native Americans teach their children of their treatment of people they subjugated? 

With lies, euphemisms and rationalizations?  That is what we do.  We should tell the truth.  Hind sight has given us clarity, no need to throw it away.

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The pure emotional responses are so tiresome!!  Ugh!!  No one can and will ever be able to point out where something was truly banned, or provide any reason as to why certain books removed from school libraries DON'T contain graphic material that is inappropriate for children.  

As for the other stuff...wow...way to try and find the monster in everything.  Why is it the white middle-aged men and women who are all bent out of shape about what the black professor suggested be discussed around the black history??  Give me a freaking break!  The guy literally, on TV, completely explained the context in which the one sentence in the whole darn document reads...nope...not good enough for some of you...you have to accuse people of being racist, changing history, banning books, etc.  Then try and throw the Native American topic on top of that...absolutely laughable.  The Native Americans were doing exactly the very thing you all are complaining the whites did to them before the whites got here.  If it didn't happen, we would not be the United States!!! Do you not think that has happened during the formation of every freaking country of the world??  Some of it is still going on.  It happened...sucks how it had to happen, but it had to happen.  Quit applying today's societal standards to hundreds and hundreds of years ago...so weak minded to do so!!

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26 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

The pure emotional responses are so tiresome!!  Ugh!!  No one can and will ever be able to point out where something was truly banned, or provide any reason as to why certain books removed from school libraries DON'T contain graphic material that is inappropriate for children.  

As for the other stuff...wow...way to try and find the monster in everything.  Why is it the white middle-aged men and women who are all bent out of shape about what the black professor suggested be discussed around the black history??  Give me a freaking break!  The guy literally, on TV, completely explained the context in which the one sentence in the whole darn document reads...nope...not good enough for some of you...you have to accuse people of being racist, changing history, banning books, etc.  Then try and throw the Native American topic on top of that...absolutely laughable.  The Native Americans were doing exactly the very thing you all are complaining the whites did to them before the whites got here.  If it didn't happen, we would not be the United States!!! Do you not think that has happened during the formation of every freaking country of the world??  Some of it is still going on.  It happened...sucks how it had to happen, but it had to happen.  Quit applying today's societal standards to hundreds and hundreds of years ago...so weak minded to do so!!

No kidding.  People are so emotional they have lost nearly all objectivity.  I didn’t judge anybody or apply any standard, I only said truth should be taught in schools.  Crazy town!
What does the race of the professor have to do with it?  Do you think it would be difficult to find professors of any and all races to push back on this?  Or only white people.   Be objective.   How about this guy?  
https://youtu.be/v6x-n6L-h_I?feature=shared

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Do you think it would be difficult to find professors of any and all races to push back on this?  Or only white people.   Be objective.  

It would be easy to find people to say all kinds of things.   The fact of the matter is that a black guy wrote this.   Would other black professors or not professors push back?  Yes.    Would American Indian professors push back?   Yes.   Would any professor of any race push back?   Yes.  Does that make them right or wrong?

I remember the situation where the anthropology professor in a debate with Riley Gaines said that there would be no way to tell if a person was male or female by the bones they left behind.   The room laughed out loud and the professor protested saying that they were a prof and knows this stuff and they don't.   And they laughed more.    You can read about and watch video here:  https://www.foxnews.com/media/audience-laughs-professor-telling-riley-gaines-difference-male-female-bone-structure    

The show BONES was based on being able to tell from bone structure if the murder victim was male or female.   And not a few months after the incident, a dig found bones hundreds of years old and they were identified as female because of the bone structure.   So could a professor be wrong?

mspart

Edited by mspart
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3 hours ago, Lipdrag said:

The original post to which I was replying did not essentialize Indians within the relative roles of our country.

There are many premises in this question.  "are we poorly educated"  Yes.  Definitely.  But not for the reason it seems you are implying.  Human migrations have happened since . . . wait for it . . . there have been humans.  Indians, no less than any other set of humans, migrated.  And, when they came across other humans in their way they gave options to those other humans:  1 - go away.  2 - merge with us.  3 - die or kill us to keep your land.  The Indians killed, tortured, raped, subjugated, enslaved, took land, pushed out, broke treaties etc. etc. with and to each other for the length and breadth of their history.  They simply encountered a couple of forces which they could not overcome.  European germs and European's ability to migrate, organize, and enforce their will through the clash of a stone age hunter-gatherer culture with an agricultural & pre-industrial one.  Note that in MesoAmerica the clash was much different.  The Indians there were agricultural and had huge political centers but still succumbed to Euro germs and Europeeps.  There, however, the Indians chose more of an option 2 (merge) approach.  It would be good to teach that history so that everyone can be better educated.  Not to sugar coat anything.  But also not to talk about "treatment" as if the Indians were children.

Wowza! In my bidness what you speak of is valued "scientific" racism,  and why the white washing of history is so irtesponsible and dangerous, eckspecially when fed to angry,  uninformed people as a means to exacerbate both. 

The Po Boys would love yis!

Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet!  In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site!

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6 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said:

Wowza! In my bidness what you speak of is valued "scientific" racism,  and why the white washing of history is so irtesponsible and dangerous, eckspecially when fed to angry,  uninformed people as a means to exacerbate both. 

The Po Boys would love yis!

So in your business you avoid the truth and profess that to be good for them?

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7 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

So in your business you avoid the truth and profess that to be good for them?

Must be why you support book and currickutum culture cancelling,  eh?

Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet!  In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site!

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8 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Inaccurate statement.  I don’t support propagandists indoctrinating people for a living.  

Maybe he just teaches English and simple math.  Either way his students are doomed or hopefully smart enough to figure it out themselves.  

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12 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

Inaccurate statement.  I don’t support propagandists indoctrinating people for a living.  

Why are you arguing about the merits of this cancelling of culture all across the country then?

Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet!  In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site!

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8 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Books are banned from public libraries, which are government run and subject to politics. Governments do ban books and declare it to be freedom.   Children should be taught truth about country, which is far different from hate even when the truth is a bitter pill to swallow.

Lord my teacher told me.

https://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0743296281

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5 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

How should Native Americans teach their children of their treatment of people they subjugated? 

They should teach their children about the past In the context of the past.  Now we may not do A, B, or C due to the evolution of thought, morality, balance of power, developed constitutional and legal structures, etc.  But people who practiced the norms of their time were not inherently evil and should not be judged by the norms of today.  Were societies who practiced cannibalism inherently evil?  Or virgin sacrifice to appease the gods?  Or rain dances to influence global warming in order to raise sea levels via increased precipitation?  No.  Chronological snobbery is the basest and simplest of the types of intellectual laziness but does make one feel smug, superior, and warm all over.

When eating animal based proteins and keeping animals in captivity for companionship become the progressive crusades in the near future then our Messiah Barack Obama will have all the roads and schools bearing his name re-branded because he ate hamburgers and had a pet cat.  Because, you know, it is evil and how could he?

Edited by Lipdrag
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34 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

They should teach their children about the past In the context of the past.  Now we may not do A, B, or C due to the evolution of thought, morality, balance of power, developed constitutional and legal structures, etc.  But people who practiced the norms of their time were not inherently evil and should not be judged by the norms of today.  Were societies who practiced cannibalism inherently evil?  Or virgin sacrifice to appease the gods?  Or rain dances to influence global warming in order to raise sea levels via increased precipitation?  No.  Chronological snobbery is the basest and simplest of the types of intellectual laziness but does make one feel smug, superior, and warm all over.

When eating animal based proteins and keeping animals in captivity for companionship become the progressive crusades in the near future then our Messiah Barack Obama will have all the roads and schools bearing his name re-branded because he ate hamburgers and had a pet cat.  Because, you know, it is evil and how could he?

So we should mention in our history curriculum that Native Americans were treated ethically because that is how it was done back in the day. 

Circling back to the beginning of this discussion- I am unmoved from my original assessment that it was racist AF and essential to the construction of our country.

Edited by Plasmodium
Forgot half the assessment
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4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

Plas, read this again. then consider not irrational.

"The guy literally, on TV, completely explained the context in which the one sentence in the whole darn document reads"

It is beyond stupid.  It is like they don't speak English.  The words they are looking for are perseverance and human spirit.  The word "Benefit" is just trolling, which is unacceptable it that context from those fine people.

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2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

The word "Benefit" is just trolling

Yeah, it does kind of sound like they were at a trade school.  The fact that it was for several generations and against their will does seem to tip the Cost/Benefit equation waaayyyy in one direction so much that "benefit" is an unfortunate characterization.

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4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

It is beyond stupid.  It is like they don't speak English.  The words they are looking for are perseverance and human spirit.  The word "Benefit" is just trolling, which is unacceptable it that context from those fine people.

Who doesn't speak English?  The professor that wrote it? 

What I think is misaligned here is the fact that people think because of the context and what was said is somehow diminishing the absolute horrible and sickening treatment of slaves...but what was written has NOTHING to do with that or implies anything other than what it says.  To say otherwise is purely trying to find the boogeyman in everything.  History is an ugly thing...there are things that have happened that are disgusting...but again...in context and during the time in which things occurred, you can't apply today's norms to that time.  Kids should be taught our history!!  They should know what has happened.  But also should be taught context and what society was like during that time.

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7 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

Yeah, it does kind of sound like they were at a trade school.  The fact that it was for several generations and against their will does seem to tip the Cost/Benefit equation waaayyyy in one direction so much that "benefit" is an unfortunate characterization.

Agreed...100%.  But doesn't change the fact that it is true.

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2 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Agreed...100%.  But doesn't change the fact that it is true.

Then read Out of America , where

Keith B. Richburg was an experienced and respected reporter who had paid his dues covering urban neighborhoods in Washington D.C., and won praise for his coverage of Southeast Asia. But nothing prepared him for the personal odyssey that he would embark upon when he was assigned to cover Africa. In this powerful book, Richburg takes the reader on an extraordinary journey that sweeps from Somalia to Rwanda to Zaire and finally to South Africa. He shows how he came to terms with the divide within himself: between his African racial heritage and his American cultural identity. Are these really my people? Am I truly an African-American? The answer, Richburg finds, after much soul-searching, is that no, he is not an African, but an American first and foremost. To those who romanticize Mother Africa as a black Valhalla, where blacks can walk with dignity and pride, he regrets that this is not the reality. He has been there and witnessed the killings, the repression, the false promises, and the horror. "Thank God my nameless ancestor, brought across the ocean in chains and leg irons, made it out alive," he concludes. "Thank God I am an American."”

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