Oh Canada

[Gus]

8 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said:

We take months to get appointments here too.

You're the only one I've truly ever met who alleges he knows Canadians that don't like their health care system.

In other words,  homey ain't buyin' it.

Are you accusing me of making my information up? You are something else...

They are waiting half a year on average between referral from GP doc to appointment with specialist.

"Canada's healthcare system, called Medicare, was once the country's pride and joy. But as the program enters its seventh decade, public opinion is starting to turn. Just over half of Canadians said they were satisfied with their healthcare system in 2022, down from nearly 70% in 2020.

It's easy to see why. Waits are interminable. In 2022, Canadian patients waited a median 27.4 weeks between referral from a general practitioner and receipt of treatment from a specialist, according to the Fraser Institute, a Vancouver think tank. That's nearly two weeks longer than the median wait time in 2021—and almost triple the 9.3 weeks Canadians waited on average in 1993.

And since private health insurance is illegal for care the government deems medically necessary, patients can't pay a premium to escape the queue."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2023/01/17/close-the-border-to-canadian-health-care/?sh=674849b971bd

[Ban Basketball]

2 minutes ago, Gus said:

Are you accusing me of making my information up? You are something else...

They are waiting half a year on average between referral from GP doc to appointment with specialist.

"Canada's healthcare system, called Medicare, was once the country's pride and joy. But as the program enters its seventh decade, public opinion is starting to turn. Just over half of Canadians said they were satisfied with their healthcare system in 2022, down from nearly 70% in 2020.

It's easy to see why. Waits are interminable. In 2022, Canadian patients waited a median 27.4 weeks between referral from a general practitioner and receipt of treatment from a specialist, according to the Fraser Institute, a Vancouver think tank. That's nearly two weeks longer than the median wait time in 2021—and almost triple the 9.3 weeks Canadians waited on average in 1993.

And since private health insurance is illegal for care the government deems medically necessary, patients can't pay a premium to escape the queue."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2023/01/17/close-the-border-to-canadian-health-care/?sh=674849b971bd

Baloney.

Either way,  sounds like our system,  except it's free or inexpensive,  all services are covered,  and everyone has access. 

Sure looks horrible to this communercicist!

[Plasmodium]

Canada's problem is they run a bastard hybrid of private and public.  Should be entirely socialist.

[mspart]

I called to have an ingrown toenail fixed.   I got in that week.   Fixed.   Not sure what the wait would be in Canada. 

Canada is so good and the waits so long that BC decided to send their cancer patients to Bellingham WA where there were facilities to care for them.   At least there was a recognition that its better for these people to live than to die due to neglect. 

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/critics-upset-that-b-c-has-to-send-cancer-patients-to-bellingham-for-treatment

mspart

[Ban Basketball]

26 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Canada's problem is they run a bastard hybrid of private and public.  Should be entirely socialist.

Are you sure?  I thought that it was all gubment run.

[Gus]

2 hours ago, Ban Basketball said:

Baloney.

Either way,  sounds like our system,  except it's free or inexpensive,  all services are covered,  and everyone has access. 

Sure looks horrible to this communercicist!

It is not free, its paid for in their taxes. It's not accessible - it takes half a year to move from primary appointment to appointment with a specialist. What is the point of a "free" health care system if it's not accessible?

[Ban Basketball]

8 minutes ago, Gus said:

It is not free, its paid for in their taxes. It's not accessible - it takes half a year to move from primary appointment to appointment with a specialist. What is the point of a "free" health care system if it's not accessible?

It's free when the phantom bill for services shows up at your door.  What you also fail to realize is that we pay more for our individual health care costs than any other country in the world, with some of the worst outcomes in the world.  What they may pay for on the front side they (1) get much more in return and (2) it saves them on the back side.  Here, we pay on the backside, due to a ridiculous system whereby we made health care a profit item.

It also takes us a half a year or more to receive services.  I have a medical procedure done annually, and it has to be scheduled six months out to get me in.  My father in law is having surgery next week in Iowa City, and has waited five months for that.  So, that's nonsense.

Stop listening to insurance companies.  Theys ain't ya friend.

[Plasmodium]

Regarding health care services, America is middle of the pack in our peers for quality, including wait time.  We are unmatched in the amount we pay however, as measured by percent of gdp.   50 percent higher than the next , which is Canada.

[Ban Basketball]

7 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Regarding health care services, America is middle of the pack in our peers for quality, including wait time.  We are unmatched in the amount we pay however, as measured by percent of gdp.   50 percent higher than the next , which is Canada.

Not so.  We're dead last among the Big 11, which are the countries used to measure health care performance and outcomes.

This source, to my knowledge, is THE go-to for such data.  It's what I use.  https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly#rank

[BobDole]

1 hour ago, Gus said:

It is not free, its paid for in their taxes. It's not accessible - it takes half a year to move from primary appointment to appointment with a specialist. What is the point of a "free" health care system if it's not accessible?

Our health care isn't free either. We pay a lot just for the policy, then have to pay until we reach the deductible. In the end you are paying $10,000+ before the insurance kicks in.

This doesn't mean I want government run health care, but at this point I'm not sure what is worse.

[Gus]

13 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Our health care isn't free either. We pay a lot just for the policy, then have to pay until we reach the deductible. In the end you are paying $10,000+ before the insurance kicks in.

This doesn't mean I want government run health care, but at this point I'm not sure what is worse.

I'm not saying that America's system is good - just that Canada's should not be held up as the signing star. I would like to have a full private, non insurance bases system where you can shop around for the best price and you know exactly what you are going to pay up front. In fact there is a hospital in I believe Oklahoma City that does just that.

[Plasmodium]

1 minute ago, Gus said:

I'm not saying that America's system is good - just that Canada's should not be held up as the signing star. I would like to have a full private, non insurance bases system where you can shop around for the best price and you know exactly what you are going to pay up front. In fact there is a hospital in I believe Oklahoma City that does just that.

You already have that, except it is called insurance.  You can decide whether you want to pay 10000, 12000 or 15000 per year in premiums.  Then you decide whether you want 3000, 5000 or 10000 in deductible.  Then you decide whether you want  insurance to pay 70, 80 or 90 percent beyond deductible.  Up to a maximum of 250k, 500k or 1 million. Yes, you can run up more than a million in medical expenses.

It is simple.

[mspart]

57 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

You already have that, except it is called insurance.  You can decide whether you want to pay 10000, 12000 or 15000 per year in premiums.  Then you decide whether you want 3000, 5000 or 10000 in deductible.  Then you decide whether you want  insurance to pay 70, 80 or 90 percent beyond deductible.  Up to a maximum of 250k, 500k or 1 million. Yes, you can run up more than a million in medical expenses.

It is simple.

This is true, but I think he was suggesting a pay by visit thing.   With Insurance you have pay by year, pay by visit, deductible over many visits.  

If you knew going to your doctor would cost $200, but there is another Dr that would cost $70, that would be a decision to make.  Insurance makes sense for big items really.   Like car insurance which doesn't pay for oil changes and fixing the AC. 

It is simple.   Insurance has it's place, but it is a crazy situation with it we have now.  

mspart

[Plasmodium]

11 minutes ago, mspart said:

This is true, but I think he was suggesting a pay by visit thing.   With Insurance you have pay by year, pay by visit, deductible over many visits.  

If you knew going to your doctor would cost $200, but there is another Dr that would cost $70, that would be a decision to make.  Insurance makes sense for big items really.   Like car insurance which doesn't pay for oil changes and fixing the AC. 

It is simple.   Insurance has it's place, but it is a crazy situation with it we have now.  

mspart

Agreed.  What we have is not a market, in that we can't shop.   Then we get squeezed because both sides operate on margin, so bigger numbers are the goal.

[Gus]

57 minutes ago, mspart said:

This is true, but I think he was suggesting a pay by visit thing.   With Insurance you have pay by year, pay by visit, deductible over many visits.  

If you knew going to your doctor would cost $200, but there is another Dr that would cost $70, that would be a decision to make.  Insurance makes sense for big items really.   Like car insurance which doesn't pay for oil changes and fixing the AC. 

It is simple.   Insurance has it's place, but it is a crazy situation with it we have now.  

mspart

Exactly. Competition in the market place is what drives price. When the prices are basically unknown and there is a lot of unnecessary markup, the consumer gets screwed. 

[Offthemat]

If you like your plan, you can keep your plan.  You just can’t keep your money.  

[GreatWhiteNorth]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:29 PM, Offthemat said:

Anybody here ever milk a cow and get to drink real milk?

Yep - but I always preferred to put it in the fridge for a while and let it cool and settle while I finished chores.

[Offthemat]

8 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Yep - but I always preferred to put it in the fridge for a while and let it cool and settle while I finished chores.

The dairy I worked on cooled the milk immediately.  There was a big blending and cooling vat, and we had a dipper.  And jugs for take home. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Offthemat

[Bigbrog]

Oh Canada....oh Canada!!  Good for fishing is about it.

I'll take my chances with the US health system over anything else right now, so the rest of you who think it is better somewhere else have at it.

As for the cost of our health care system, I bet if people truly dug into it and found out what drives up the cost you may have different opinions.  Here are a couple hints...shhhh...government regulations (which some of you probably voted for) and a litigious society....

[Offthemat]

3 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Oh Canada....oh Canada!!  Good for fishing is about it.

I'll take my chances with the US health system over anything else right now, so the rest of you who think it is better somewhere else have at it.

As for the cost of our health care system, I bet if people truly dug into it and found out what drives up the cost you may have different opinions.  Here are a couple hints...shhhh...government regulations (which some of you probably voted for) and a litigious society....

How would you feel if you found out that the government, in cooperation with the AMA, limits how many doctors are trained in order to reduce competition. 

[Bigbrog]

2 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

How would you feel if you found out that the government, in cooperation with the AMA, limits how many doctors are trained in order to reduce competition. 

Exactly!

[ionel]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:29 PM, Offthemat said:

Anybody here ever milk a cow and get to drink real milk?

 

11 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Yep - but I always preferred to put it in the fridge for a while and let it cool and settle while I finished chores.

We were auto, grandfather was still manual but if electricity went out farmers got together to hand milk.  My job was get'n em in from the pasture, never milked and we gave up the dairy when I was in grade school, but we did have fresh whole milk every morning till then.   

[MPhillips]

We raised goats when I was a kid(yuk, yuk). Not a herd, it was for 4-H, but enough to have fresh milk.  

All the farmers in the area would go have coffee at this place early Saturday mornings. My ol' man was an electrical contractor who grew up here so he went to shoot the shit with the farmers. They talked glibly about how they Govt. was paying them not to farm. The next week he was asking them about building a silo and what all it entailed. After a while someone asked him why he needed a silo. Straight faced he told them, "I need storage for my wire nuts."  "The govt. is going to start paying me not to wire houses."  Needless to say they didn't think it was quite as funny as he did.  

Paying farmers not to farm has been a thing for some time. Not sure about dairy farmers and not interested in looking it up. I imagine it would be similar. Meanwhile, anyone need wire nuts...

[ionel]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

We raised goats when I was a kid(yuk, yuk). Not a herd, it was for 4-H, but enough to have fresh milk.  

All the farmers in the area would go have coffee at this place early Saturday mornings. My ol' man was an electrical contractor who grew up here so he went to shoot the shit with the farmers. They talked glibly about how they Govt. was paying them not to farm. The next week he was asking them about building a silo and what all it entailed. After a while someone asked him why he needed a silo. Straight faced he told them, "I need storage for my wire nuts."  "The govt. is going to start paying me not to wire houses."  Needless to say they didn't think it was quite as funny as he did.  

Paying farmers not to farm has been a thing for some time. Not sure about dairy farmers and not interested in looking it up. I imagine it would be similar. Meanwhile, anyone need wire nuts...

When I see the O in MP's user image, I think Canada.  

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

We raised goats when I was a kid(yuk, yuk). Not a herd, it was for 4-H, but enough to have fresh milk.  

how ya milk those things? is there a machine or you gotta do it by hand?