Freestyle rule changes

[Eagle26]

First let me say overall I’m a big fan of the freestyle rules (1000x better than ball grab era), but it doesn’t mean we couldn’t make little tweaks to make them better. One thing I noticed that was glaring at Final X was inconsistency on the out of bounds cautions and grounded calls. The thing that blows my mind is that a wrestler can drop to his knees and just slide out of bounds and it is never a caution and 1. How is that not avoiding wrestling or negative wrestling?! You are literally refusing to come to your feet to fight to stay in bounds. Then if someone comes up to their feet and tries to fight to stay in but gives up the step out, they could give up one plus a caution and one. Seems backwards to me. Not sure what the best solution is though? Should we get rid of grounded rule all together and everything is 1? Or just tweak the interpretation of cautions and put an emphasis on more consistency? Any other ideas?

[Scouts Honor]

get rid of step out. they had to add the caution and 1 b/c guys were gaming it

[LJB]

the step out has made wrestling exponentially better...

the caution and 1 is not applied with much consistency domestically...

to be fair, it is difficult to "judge" the intent of the defending wrestler...

[Formally140]

If they dropped in the zone that should be the caution and 1

[1032004]

3 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

get rid of step out. they had to add the caution and 1 b/c guys were gaming it

How does one “game” the step out?  I would think just getting rid of grounded all together would help.

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

How does one “game” the step out?  I would think just getting rid of grounded all together would help.

you didn't watch the matches last night?

or the last few years? guys are dropping all the time

next we will add par terre if the c+1 doesn't solve it

[1032004]

13 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

you didn't watch the matches last night?

or the last few years? guys are dropping all the time

next we will add par terre if the c+1 doesn't solve it

Yes they are absolutely gaming the grounded rule, which is why I think they should get rid of it.  I thought you were saying they were gaming the stepout rule

[Scouts Honor]

6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Yes they are absolutely gaming the grounded rule, which is why I think they should get rid of it.  I thought you were saying they were gaming the stepout rule

they are...by going grounded. if you get rid of grounding... what will be the next game

[mspart]

55 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

you didn't watch the matches last night?

or the last few years? guys are dropping all the time

next we will add par terre if the c+1 doesn't solve it

If I understand this correctly, you are saying a step out deserves par terre with the guy that went out defending?  I think that is an awesome idea and would put ground wrestling back in the mix.   FS lacks that as a whole. 

mspart

[1032004]

48 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

they are...by going grounded. if you get rid of grounding... what will be the next game

Why do you think there will be a "game" if there is no exceptions?   Step out first, other guy gets a point.   I know people are afraid "it will turn to sumo" but that doesn't seem to be the case except if your name is Thomas Gilman.

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Why do you think there will be a "game" if there is no exceptions?   Step out first, other guy gets a point.   I know people are afraid "it will turn to sumo" but that doesn't seem to be the case except if your name is Thomas Gilman.

you missed the JB/cm match?

[1032004]

3 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

you missed the JB/cm match?

What are you referring to?   Are you referring to the controversial 4 for Chance?  Was there even consensus that was the right call?

[Scouts Honor]

6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

What are you referring to?   Are you referring to the controversial 4 for Chance?  Was there even consensus that was the right call?

no it was sumo

cm spent most of the match in a 3 point stance or on his knees...and JB obliged by acting like a battering ram

[1032004]

42 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

no it was sumo

cm spent most of the match in a 3 point stance or on his knees...and JB obliged by acting like a battering ram

Meh I didn't really consider it to be sumo.   And being on one's knees seems to be more an issue with the grounded rule than the pushout rule.

[PNWfan]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:50 AM, Eagle26 said:

First let me say overall I’m a big fan of the freestyle rules (1000x better than ball grab era), but it doesn’t mean we couldn’t make little tweaks to make them better. One thing I noticed that was glaring at Final X was inconsistency on the out of bounds cautions and grounded calls. The thing that blows my mind is that a wrestler can drop to his knees and just slide out of bounds and it is never a caution and 1. How is that not avoiding wrestling or negative wrestling?! You are literally refusing to come to your feet to fight to stay in bounds. Then if someone comes up to their feet and tries to fight to stay in but gives up the step out, they could give up one plus a caution and one. Seems backwards to me. Not sure what the best solution is though? Should we get rid of grounded rule all together and everything is 1? Or just tweak the interpretation of cautions and put an emphasis on more consistency? Any other ideas?

I agree that the grounding rule is very subjective and inconsistently called in freestyle at the senior levelt. However, I disagree with the statement that a wrestler can drop to his knees and never give up 1. Look at David Taylor's Olympic final match against Yazdani. Yaz was pushing him with those underhooks and DT was (smartly) dropping to his knees to avoid the push-out point. I think it was the third time this happened where the ref hit DT with a caution and awarded Yaz 1 point, which seemed to catch DT off guard.

[Eagle26]

6 hours ago, PNWfan said:

I agree that the grounding rule is very subjective and inconsistently called in freestyle at the senior levelt. However, I disagree with the statement that a wrestler can drop to his knees and never give up 1. Look at David Taylor's Olympic final match against Yazdani. Yaz was pushing him with those underhooks and DT was (smartly) dropping to his knees to avoid the push-out point. I think it was the third time this happened where the ref hit DT with a caution and awarded Yaz 1 point, which seemed to catch DT off guard.

Fair point. It was a bit of hyperbole based on the calls at Final X. There were sooo many times where it was blatant they dropped to their knees to avoid a step out and I can’t remember it being called once this weekend. 

[LJB]

9 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Fair point. It was a bit of hyperbole based on the calls at Final X. There were sooo many times where it was blatant they dropped to their knees to avoid a step out and I can’t remember it being called once this weekend. 

you are also dealing with domestic refs...

it is called with more consistency internationally...

[Eagle26]

1 hour ago, LJB said:

you are also dealing with domestic refs...

it is called with more consistency internationally...

Yeah, but if domestic refs call it differently than international refs, I’d say that alone is inconsistency. There needs to be clarification across the board on how it should be called. And I believe we should be calling it a caution and 1 more often, or maybe even change the rule to make it a step out.

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

Fair point. It was a bit of hyperbole based on the calls at Final X. There were sooo many times where it was blatant they dropped to their knees to avoid a step out and I can’t remember it being called once this weekend. 

Diakomihalis got a caution and one for dropping to his knees in the passivity zone before being pushed out in match one.

[Cornell Kevin]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:50 AM, Eagle26 said:

First let me say overall I’m a big fan of the freestyle rules (1000x better than ball grab era), but it doesn’t mean we couldn’t make little tweaks to make them better. One thing I noticed that was glaring at Final X was inconsistency on the out of bounds cautions and grounded calls. The thing that blows my mind is that a wrestler can drop to his knees and just slide out of bounds and it is never a caution and 1. How is that not avoiding wrestling or negative wrestling?! You are literally refusing to come to your feet to fight to stay in bounds. Then if someone comes up to their feet and tries to fight to stay in but gives up the step out, they could give up one plus a caution and one. Seems backwards to me. Not sure what the best solution is though? Should we get rid of grounded rule all together and everything is 1? Or just tweak the interpretation of cautions and put an emphasis on more consistency? Any other ideas?

An absolute horrific example

of this issue took place at Final X in regards to comparing the calls of the Yianni/Lee and Richards/Gilman matches.   Not only were the grounded situations called in a consistent manner, but they actually penalized a wrestler who was grounded and did not penalize a wrestler who should have been.

 Richards who was getting backed out of bounds by Gilman literally just dropps to both knees intentionally to avoid push out point.  What do they call ?  Just call grounded.  So no point awarded to Gilman, and they start back center mat.  What should they have called ?  Should have been a caution 1 against Richards and he should have then started down in parterre position center mat. 

Nick Lee is pushing Yianni back and Yianni attacks the same way he has a million times before where he fakes a shot right and tries to duck left. Nick Lee ultimately blocks the duck sending Yianni to his knees.  Even then , Yianni attempts another shot from his knees to the right and Lee pushes Yianni out of bounds while Yianni is grounded .  What do they call ?  They caution -1 Yianni and have him start parterre center mat.  This not only gives Lee a point but then he got 2 more points from that parterre with a trap arm followed by Yianni getting  1 point reversal.  This decided the match as the final was 7-6.  Lee should have not gotten the 1 point for caution 1 and should not have been in the position to get the 2 point exposure. Yianni would in turn not get the 1 point reversal.  that’s a 2 point swing Yianni’s way in a 1 point loss.  Now who is to say that the rest of the match doesn’t end differently if Lee is down instead of up in score.  Bottom line, we will never know cause the officials screwed it up.  This should have been called grounded as him being on his knees was a result of Lee’s defense against Yianni’s offensive action.  

It would be one thing if they both did what Richards did (going to his knees intentionally to be grounded ) and they called it two different ways in each match. It is another thing altogether when they call both scenarios wrong opposite of each other. 

[de4856]

I believe that the rule change should be that if you obviously drop to your knees in the zone, and then get pushed out of bounds, that should be a point. 

[WrestlingRasta]

edit already discussed 

Edited June 16, 2023 by WrestlingRasta

[Gus]

Get rid of the grounded rule. Let refs subjectively call caution and 1 when wrestlers are avoiding takedowns by using the step out.

[mspart]

How about the rule change to if you get pushed out, 1 point and par terre?

mspart

[MPhillips]

No shot clock. One warning, then 1 point and par terre.