To derail the PSU train Iowa needs a big shakeup at the top

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Something big needs to happen on the order of a new head coach. I am proposing in 5 years, if Iowa is not a serious contender for the team title (second place is first loser) they make Spencer Lee their new head coach. Move Tom and Terry to the HWC. This timing aligns perfectly with Spencer’s 5 year contract at HWC and utilizes Iowa’s homegrown GOAT. It is the only way they can pull in the top tier recruits Penn State is getting.

[headshuck]

Sadly for Iowa, the next order of pain will be when Cael poaches an Iowa AA.

[jchapman]

42 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Something big needs to happen on the order of a new head coach. I am proposing in 5 years, if Iowa is not a serious contender for the team title (second place is first loser) they make Spencer Lee their new head coach. Move Tom and Terry to the HWC. This timing aligns perfectly with Spencer’s 5 year contract at HWC and utilizes Iowa’s homegrown GOAT. It is the only way they can pull in the top tier recruits Penn State is getting.

1/10

[pokemonster]

37 minutes ago, headshuck said:

Sadly for Iowa, the next order of pain will be when Cael poaches an Iowa AA.

Ooof, I hadn't even thought of that as a possibility. I'd be hear to watch the world burn after that though. 

[AcadiaPines]

Cael is a very charismatic leader, and posseses outstanding vision and determination. Casey and Cody fit perfectly with Cael and the result is a synergy of coaching talent currently unmatched. They are now situated in a setting of resources that will continue to buoy them at the top of their trade.

Anyone seeking to match their attributes will need to take a wholistic approach. The importance of obtaining a complete combination of charisma, coaching skills, vision, determination, appropriate assistants, and resources cannot be overstated.

A daunting task, but thinking out loud, I see something like this required:

Head coach: JB

1st Assistant: Kyle Snyder

2nd assistant: the new/recent version of Thomas Gilman

A top flight RTC is a must!

RTC Head coach: (pay what it takes):  Pejman Dorostkar (likely impossible, but you get the point.)

Ample financial resources and institutional athletic hunger for and commitment to success a must. Location withen regional high school wrestling excellence is a huge plus, but may not be necessary.

Would Iowa be willing to veer from recent traditions to make this sort of retooling?

Perhaps an Ohio State? I dont think Nebraska has the wrestling gravitas to pull it off.

Or would some rich alumni/entrepreneur from a sports crazed institution like a Clemson or Alabama take on the challenge as a crusade to unseat the king?

In any event, Cael's hugely successful enterprise will roll on into the forseeable future as long as he stays committed. 

 

 

I

[ionel]

BnG saying all three Ferrari coming in, they will blow up the program and then AJ Sr takes over.

[Elevator]

16 minutes ago, ionel said:

BnG saying all three Ferrari coming in, they will blow up the program and then AJ Sr takes over.

brilliant!  Could not possible go wrong!

[1032004]

I think this is actually a reasonable take from Jimmy, it’s not like he’s saying they should be fired now, so 5 years gives them more time to see if they can close the gap.

And I do think Lee will be a really good coach.  The question is probably how long he competes for and if he does any assisting during that time.  I’d think he probably shouldn’t jump right to HC.

[Ivan Stankowski]

Mizzo will upset the dynasty before Iowa does

[BlacknGold]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:14 PM, BlacknGold said:

With new transfer rules there will be multiple juggernauts. We saw it happen to Alabama football recently. First PSU will get everyone they want, then elite wrestlers will transfer to other big programs in response. Who it really hurts is the mid tier programs trying to stay afloat. They can lose some of their best guys any given offseason, and we will continue to see that happen with these portal rules and nil money involved. It will hard for programs with less talent and less money to keep their best guys, sadly

 

3 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Something big needs to happen on the order of a new head coach. I am proposing in 5 years, if Iowa is not a serious contender for the team title (second place is first loser) they make Spencer Lee their new head coach. Move Tom and Terry to the HWC. This timing aligns perfectly with Spencer’s 5 year contract at HWC and utilizes Iowa’s homegrown GOAT. It is the only way they can pull in the top tier recruits Penn State is getting.

Yeah whatever Jimmy, you got any more fake news you want to break for us? I predicted this, see above... Brands is a great coach, and he just won a title 2 years ago, and he has the #1 recruiting class of 2023. Iowa is only a couple of studs away from having a similar lineup. Penn State might have the most talented roster ever assembled, but other teams aren't going to sit around and spectate. Next offseason could see more transfers than ever before, and Penn State might not have any holes to spare, meaning Iowa, Cornell, NC State could be in play for some big fish like Penn State was this year

[BlacknGold]

4 minutes ago, Ivan Stankowski said:

Mizzo will upset the dynasty before Iowa does

We already pulled that off 2 years ago

[BAC]

Iowa fans don't want to hear it, but I think quality of coaching is one of the biggest reasons PSU is getting all these guys that Iowa isn't.  Coaching in all its forms:  how they develop guys, teaching them to win, and the attitude they foster.

PSU is legendary for getting its guys on the top of the podium.  Iowa, not so much.  They've had 8 #1 seeds in the last decade or so, and only one has won. 

Same on the team front:  one title vs. a stack of them.  PSU recruits know they'll almost certianly know the joy of hoisting a team trophy.

There's also head-to-head evidence, as lots of PSU guys who started out losing to their Iowa counterpart, ended up surpassing them.  Think RBY (started 0-2 vs DeSanto) and Kerkvliet (started 0-2 vs Cass).  Even SVN, who lost a couple times to Murin but outplaced him.  Many older examples too.

A lot of these top recruits are eyeing freestyle success too, and Iowa's HWC has basically collapsed in the last decade, while PSU's is now the top destination.  The resulting difference in practice partners is also dramatic, and the developmental benefits of that is incalculable.

I don't think its lost on recruits that PSU takes care of their guys physically too.  Time after time, Iowa threw an injured Lee out on the mat.  Lee is a warrior who will always go, but Iowa never said no.  Contrast that to PSU's biggest "scandal," if you can call it that, with Nick Suriano, where he was mad because he *wanted* to wrestle in the post-season while the coaches/trainers thought he wasn't healed enough and said no.  Recruits see that, as do parents, who know their kid will be well cared for.

Much more creativity in PSU's wrestling too.  PSU's coaching seems able to cultivate many different styles, with new variations on moves, whereas Iowa clings to its '80s philosophy of shove-em-out-of-bounds-and-demand-a-stall-call.  There's exceptions on both sides, but overall the difference in the dynamism and originality of PSU and Iowa wrestlers is hard to miss.

And attitude.  Make fun of PSU's "have fun" philosophy if you want, but recruits see these guys actually having fun, and it makes an impression.  Contrast that to Iowa's sneering every-hates-us-and-we-love-it philosophy, and that'll attract certain guys, but most guys prefer to have fun than bathe in hate.  

I'm not going full-on Jimmy here and saying Iowa needs to clean house.  Iowa pulls in enough good recruits to do fine most years.  But as against PSU, face it, the difference is dramatic.  Its easy to see how top recruits who do their homework would turn their nose up at big money from Iowa given what PSU has.

[feet2back]

Forget the coaching...If Iowa can keep throwing 6 figures at top tier transfers and recruits, they will start buying their way close to the top...How much do have they have to pay Real Woods this season to stick around?

Edited April 26, 2023 by feet2back

[JVStateChamp]

1 minute ago, feet2back said:

Forget the coaching...If Iowa can keep throwing 6 figures at top tier transfers and recruits, they will start buying their way close to the top

I am not an Iowa fan in the slightest but let's not be naive and think that other programs PSU included aren't throwing money around just the same. It is outlandish to think that Iowa is the only program that is trying to get recruits with the use of NIL money. There is a lot to be said about trends and success. PSU has done a great job of adapting to the times, training is much different now than it was 20 years ago. Now that PSU has built its success people want to be attached and part of it. This ship will change to the next program whether it be Iowa, Ohio State, Michigan, Virginia Tech whatever school like everything it will come to an end and someone else will take over. 

[The_KC_Godfather]

20 minutes ago, BAC said:

Iowa fans don't want to hear it, but I think quality of coaching is one of the biggest reasons PSU is getting all these guys that Iowa isn't.  Coaching in all its forms:  how they develop guys, teaching them to win, and the attitude they foster.

PSU is legendary for getting its guys on the top of the podium.  Iowa, not so much.  They've had 8 #1 seeds in the last decade or so, and only one has won. 

Same on the team front:  one title vs. a stack of them.  PSU recruits know they'll almost certianly know the joy of hoisting a team trophy.

There's also head-to-head evidence, as lots of PSU guys who started out losing to their Iowa counterpart, ended up surpassing them.  Think RBY (started 0-2 vs DeSanto) and Kerkvliet (started 0-2 vs Cass).  Even SVN, who lost a couple times to Murin but outplaced him.  Many older examples too.

A lot of these top recruits are eyeing freestyle success too, and Iowa's HWC has basically collapsed in the last decade, while PSU's is now the top destination.  The resulting difference in practice partners is also dramatic, and the developmental benefits of that is incalculable.

I don't think its lost on recruits that PSU takes care of their guys physically too.  Time after time, Iowa threw an injured Lee out on the mat.  Lee is a warrior who will always go, but Iowa never said no.  Contrast that to PSU's biggest "scandal," if you can call it that, with Nick Suriano, where he was mad because he *wanted* to wrestle in the post-season while the coaches/trainers thought he wasn't healed enough and said no.  Recruits see that, as do parents, who know their kid will be well cared for.

Much more creativity in PSU's wrestling too.  PSU's coaching seems able to cultivate many different styles, with new variations on moves, whereas Iowa clings to its '80s philosophy of shove-em-out-of-bounds-and-demand-a-stall-call.  There's exceptions on both sides, but overall the difference in the dynamism and originality of PSU and Iowa wrestlers is hard to miss.

And attitude.  Make fun of PSU's "have fun" philosophy if you want, but recruits see these guys actually having fun, and it makes an impression.  Contrast that to Iowa's sneering every-hates-us-and-we-love-it philosophy, and that'll attract certain guys, but most guys prefer to have fun than bathe in hate.  

I'm not going full-on Jimmy here and saying Iowa needs to clean house.  Iowa pulls in enough good recruits to do fine most years.  But as against PSU, face it, the difference is dramatic.  Its easy to see how top recruits who do their homework would turn their nose up at big money from Iowa given what PSU has.

I was thinking these same things the other day...not specifically about Iowa, but how PSU is getting insane recruiting classes (Their 2024 class has 5 of the top 10 P4P recruits!). I think everything you said is a huge contributor...the success, coaching and RTC. Kids know that if they go to PSU, they're going to win.

That got me to thinking...is there anyone that's not currently a head coach that could compete with this, or out-recruit Cael?  It doesn't seem like national team coaches can (KJ, Zeke)...or at least they can't compete if they get top recruits, a la ASU's 2014/15 recruiting class. My thoughts, in no particular order, of coaches that could potentially compete with Cael from a recruiting perspective:

- Ben Askren: From a college wrestling standpoint, I think recruits would be drawn to him, but from an RTC/post-collegiate wrestling career aspect, I don't see him bringing the same value as having Gilman, Nolf, Zain, Snyder and Taylor.

- Jordan Burroughs: Likely the frontrunner in this discussion. His accomplishments would drive recruits to believe they can compete and win in both college and an RTC environment.

- David Taylor: Would he move away from Cael?

- Kyle Dake: I would have thought that if he was the right guy, he would have bumped Grey out of the picture already. Maybe it's a loyalty thing, or maybe it's a "he's a better technical coach than head coach"

- ???

Who else?  Whoever it would be would have to be in one of the hot beds with great facilities and an attractive education.

[AgaveMaria]

3 hours ago, ionel said:

BnG saying all three Ferrari coming in, they will blow up the program and then AJ Sr takes over.

Will need a supreme tactial technique coach to get them over the hump. Downey is available. Should fit right in.

------------

Reality is that Tom & Terry are there and have the program still competitive. Just can't get past Penn State. When Dan Gable had the let down he re-tooled and did some tweaking and brought the team back to the top. Don't know if T&T can do that. If they don't they are second banana for some time to come.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Will need a supreme tactial technique coach to get them over the hump. Downey is available. Should fit right in.

------------

Reality is that Tom & Terry are there and have the program still competitive. Just can't get past Penn State. When Dan Gable had the let down he re-tooled and did some tweaking and brought the team back to the top. Don't know if T&T can do that. If they don't they are second banana for some time to come.

They already did the re-tooling.  That was the Kem, Young, Spencer , Marinelli, Murin group.  Got one title out of that group.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Let Clarissa run the show.

[bnwtwg]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

And I do think Lee will be a really good coach.  The question is probably how long he competes for and if he does any assisting during that time.  I’d think he probably shouldn’t jump right to HC.

The best place for Lee to improve as both a competitor and future coach is Happy Valley. He fits in very well with the Carl/Casey/Snyder/Varner selfless school of thought. Not sure how his Charizard would do in a battle against Jesus though...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

35 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

The best place for Lee to improve as both a competitor and future coach is Happy Valley. He fits in very well with the Carl/Casey/Snyder/Varner selfless school of thought. Not sure how his Charizard would do in a battle against Jesus though...

Huh?  First of all, it is not happening.

How do Taylor, Dake, Starocci, Gilman, Bo Nickal, and others fit into the "selfless school of thought?"  Is Cael even selfless?  How would you know?

[bnwtwg]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Huh?  First of all, it is not happening.

How do Taylor, Dake, Starocci, Gilman, Bo Nickal, and others fit into the "selfless school of thought?"  Is Cael even selfless?  How would you know?

I didn't say it is happening. I said it would be the best place.

[CHROMEBIRD]

4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I think this is actually a reasonable take from Jimmy, it’s not like he’s saying they should be fired now, so 5 years gives them more time to see if they can close the gap.

And I do think Lee will be a really good coach.  The question is probably how long he competes for and if he does any assisting during that time.  I’d think he probably shouldn’t jump right to HC.

Agree with both of this. The Hawks will be fine with Brands but it could do a lot better. I like TnT but honestly don't think they have the creativity or smarts to be really great coaches. They seem happy enough to ride Iowa's legacy and try to emulate Gable without adding much value. 

I'd like to see Lee get into coaching but I'm more excited to see how far Tony Ramos goes in his coaching career. He'll be ready for something bigger soon.

[Wrestleknownothing]

10 hours ago, The_KC_Godfather said:

 

Who else?  Whoever it would be would have to be in one of the hot beds with great facilities and an attractive education.

How about two guys who have been to the mountain domestically, who learned from the master, who are very charismatic and would probably recruit well, who have already dabbled in coaching, and who have already moved out of the orbit?

Mark Hall and Vincenzo Joseph.

[scourge165]

17 hours ago, AcadiaPines said:

Cael is a very charismatic leader, and posseses outstanding vision and determination. Casey and Cody fit perfectly with Cael and the result is a synergy of coaching talent currently unmatched. They are now situated in a setting of resources that will continue to buoy them at the top of their trade.

Anyone seeking to match their attributes will need to take a wholistic approach. The importance of obtaining a complete combination of charisma, coaching skills, vision, determination, appropriate assistants, and resources cannot be overstated.

A daunting task, but thinking out loud, I see something like this required:

Head coach: JB

1st Assistant: Kyle Snyder

2nd assistant: the new/recent version of Thomas Gilman

A top flight RTC is a must!

RTC Head coach: (pay what it takes):  Pejman Dorostkar (likely impossible, but you get the point.)

Ample financial resources and institutional athletic hunger for and commitment to success a must. Location withen regional high school wrestling excellence is a huge plus, but may not be necessary.

Would Iowa be willing to veer from recent traditions to make this sort of retooling?

Perhaps an Ohio State? I dont think Nebraska has the wrestling gravitas to pull it off.

Or would some rich alumni/entrepreneur from a sports crazed institution like a Clemson or Alabama take on the challenge as a crusade to unseat the king?

In any event, Cael's hugely successful enterprise will roll on into the forseeable future as long as he stays committed. 

 

 

I

I've been saying Ohio State is the most likely place for it to happen, and it's require a David Taylor(hometown hero, seems like he's got the personality for coaching) and then add that 2nd dynamic coach. I'd been thinking Dake, but Snyder would be brilliant.

The 3rd, it's more important how he fits than anything.

 

Ohio has enough in-state talent and tOSU has the program and the facilities to get this done.

JB's another guy I've thought of, but I was trying to line up program and athlete and some connection. Not sure Nebraska could do it. JB is from NJ. Of course he could coach anywhere as it's not like Cael's from Penn, just think it'd help a coach like Taylor(or Snyder) hit the ground running to return in-state either from HS or College.

 

But yes, it would appear PSU is the team for the next 5-6 years at least. I could see him stepping back and Cunningham stepping in at some point as well...and PSU not losing a step.

[1032004]

19 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

The best place for Lee to improve as both a competitor and future coach is Happy Valley. He fits in very well with the Carl/Casey/Snyder/Varner selfless school of thought. Not sure how his Charizard would do in a battle against Jesus though...

As a wrestler probably but does Cael really have much of a "coaching tree" yet?   Which of course the lack of one IMO is partly due to the success his wrestlers continue to have on the senior level. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by 1032004