Potential Rule Changes Vote sent to coaches

[1032004]

 

Discussed on FRL today.  Some of the key ones and my thoughts:

 

1. No longer requiring headgear.   Dislike.   It should be required in practices

2. Changing first MFF to a loss.  I like it.

3. Reducing the scoring for consolation bracket (no specifics though).  I like it.

4. Offensive wrestler must work for a fall/near fall.  YES YES YES

5. One point pushout rule.  I think I like it, but not sure.

[Alces Alces Gigas]

Push outs need a uniform mat size and a warning track like the international zone 

[Dogbone]

10 hours ago, 1032004 said:

4. Offensive wrestler must work for a fall/near fall.  YES YES YES

It's crazy to me that this is a rule that needs to be added.... 100% Yes! 

I think folk style will be better with a pushout rule, ideally TD would be changed to 3 points and pushout point = 1 to encourage guys to finish the single leg as opposed to just running guys out of bounds but you have to start somewhere.    I don't think it would be terrible if it was both feet out (for pushout point) either but willing to see how whatever gets implemented plays out. 

[Scouts Honor]

didn't we just de-emphasize champions a few years ago?

now we are de-emphasizing the wrestle backs... why?

NO PUSH OUT

 

[Scouts Honor]

1 minute ago, Dogbone said:

It's crazy to me that this is a rule that needs to be added.... 100% Yes! 

I think folk style will be better with a pushout rule, ideally TD would be changed to 3 points and pushout point = 1 to encourage guys to finish the single leg as opposed to just running guys out of bounds but you have to start somewhere.    I don't think it would be terrible if it was both feet out (for pushout point) either but willing to see how whatever gets implemented plays out. 

Im not sure 3 points is the  answer, but maybe... b/c it will just become freestyle where guys dont finish... DONT EVEN TRY... they just push them out

[Wrestleknownothing]

33 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

didn't we just de-emphasize champions a few years ago?

now we are de-emphasizing the wrestle backs... why?

NO PUSH OUT

 

To re-emphasize champions?

Over the years, first place points have been shrinking as a percent of total points. Perhaps they want to reverse that trend.

[ionel]

1. No longer requiring headgear.   

IDK, as I believe a former President once said: if you like your ears you can keep your ears.

2. Changing first MFF to a loss. 

Yes

3. Reducing the scoring for consolation bracket (no specifics though). 

Why?

4. Offensive wrestler must work for a fall/near fall. 

Yes

5. One point pushout rule.

No way!

[Scouts Honor]

3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

To re-emphasize champions?

Over the years, first place points have been shrinking as a percent of total points. Perhaps they want to reverse that trend.

thats what im thinking...but why

why the change back...

although its not undoing the past changes... which would make sense if thats what they are thinking

Edited March 30, 2023 by Scouts Honor

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1. No longer requiring headgear.   My HOF college coach used to say "headgear should be optional in competition, but mandatory in practices." Instaed, we do the opposite!  I would like that rule!

2. Changing first MFF to a loss.  Good rule.

3. Reducing the scoring for consolation bracket (no specifics though).  I like this.

4. Offensive wrestler must work for a fall/near fall.  Great!

5. One point pushout rule.  I like it, but there is one problem that I see: What happens when a guy escapes near the edge and then is attacked and forced out?  Trading a 1E for a "1 pushout" doesn't sound right!

6. Not mentioned above was uniform weigh-in times.  No more differing "one hour weigh-ins" for duals and "two hour weigh-ins" for tourneys.  Make it uniform!  Pyles was deadset against one hour weigh-ins for both.  I think it is a great idea.  The weight-cutting is not nearly as bad as it was 20 years ago, but it seems we are backsliding little by little.  Let's keep making it tough for the weight cutters, especially in tournaments.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[98lberEating2Lunches]

11 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Reducing the scoring for consolation bracket (no specifics though).

I can see reducing bonus point value in consolation brackets to make MFFs worth no points rather than 2.

Maybe even cut all bonus point in half for the first round a wrestler enters wrestle backs.

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

I can see reducing bonus point value in consolation brackets to make MFFs worth no points rather than 2.

Maybe even cut all bonus point in half for the first round a wrestler enters wrestle backs.

I always assumed that wrestlers fattened up on bonus points in the consolation brackets. I took a look at 2010 - 2022 to see if my assumption was correct.

That first round of consolations is slightly less bonus heavy than the first round of the championship bracket on a per match basis. And with half the matches, it is much less important for overall bonus already. And across all matches, consolations are slightly less bonus heavy than championships. 

That said, it could be that that separation is still not enough. But without knowing the motivation for change or the nature of the change (I did not listen to FRL, so not sure if they discussed that), it is very hard to know.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

I can see reducing bonus point value in consolation brackets to make MFFs worth no points rather than 2.

Maybe even cut all bonus point in half for the first round a wrestler enters wrestle backs.

Why reduce forfeit points?  A forfeit should be equal to a pin.  Only makes sense.

 

[nhs67]

I am all for a pushout if they adopt some sort of grounding rule.

I am also more of the mind to switch to Freestyle full time.

Honestly I think it would be cool to be able to implement Greco as well, but whatevs.

[Formally140]

The normal mix of 

sweet- do it

eh - why though

ew 

[JVStateChamp]

Take away the headgear, I am tired of seeing teams deducted a team point for someone throwing their headgear in celebration (i.e Andrew Alirez)

[1032004]

21 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I always assumed that wrestlers fattened up on bonus points in the consolation brackets. I took a look at 2010 - 2022 to see if my assumption was correct.

That first round of consolations is slightly less bonus heavy than the first round of the championship bracket on a per match basis. And with half the matches, it is much less important for overall bonus already. And across all matches, consolations are slightly less bonus heavy than championships. 

That said, it could be that that separation is still not enough. But without knowing the motivation for change or the nature of the change (I did not listen to FRL, so not sure if they discussed that), it is very hard to know.

I know FRL discussed on a prior episode that it just seems odd that you earn 4x as much for a fall in the consolations as simply winning the match, and I'd agree.  

But I think they've also theorized about scoring more in the consolations than the championship bracket, which I'm not sure about.

Do you have the breakdown of "middle rounds" in the above?  I would guess the championship bracket gradually declines and would be curious if the consolation does as well.

[ionel]

3 minutes ago, JVStateChamp said:

Take away the headgear, I am tired of seeing teams deducted a team point for someone throwing their headgear in celebration (i.e Andrew Alirez)

Probably just throw their ankle bands instead.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Headgear and singlets should be optional.

[Wrestleknownothing]

31 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I know FRL discussed on a prior episode that it just seems odd that you earn 4x as much for a fall in the consolations as simply winning the match, and I'd agree.  

But I think they've also theorized about scoring more in the consolations than the championship bracket, which I'm not sure about.

Do you have the breakdown of "middle rounds" in the above?  I would guess the championship bracket gradually declines and would be curious if the consolation does as well.

Unfortunately, no. I had to go through all of the brackets by hand. I started out just looking at round 1, but then went back to add the placement matches as it seemed like there were a lot of forfeits there (there were). Then it was like "oh, well, might as well do the rest". But by then I got a little lazy and did the rest as a group rather than by round.

I will say that forfeits in the placement matches might need to be addressed. It seems like a lot of points are gained there. And if I recall correctly I think there was one or two situations where it affected the team race at 2nd through 4th, but not for first.

[ionel]

1 hour ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

I can see reducing bonus point value in consolation brackets to make MFFs worth no points rather than 2.

Maybe even cut all bonus point in half for the first round a wrestler enters wrestle backs.

 

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I always assumed that wrestlers fattened up on bonus points in the consolation brackets. I took a look at 2010 - 2022 to see if my assumption was correct.

That first round of consolations is slightly less bonus heavy than the first round of the championship bracket on a per match basis. And with half the matches, it is much less important for overall bonus already. And across all matches, consolations are slightly less bonus heavy than championships. 

That said, it could be that that separation is still not enough. But without knowing the motivation for change or the nature of the change (I did not listen to FRL, so not sure if they discussed that), it is very hard to know.

 

41 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I know FRL discussed on a prior episode that it just seems odd that you earn 4x as much for a fall in the consolations as simply winning the match, and I'd agree.  

But I think they've also theorized about scoring more in the consolations than the championship bracket, which I'm not sure about.

Do you have the breakdown of "middle rounds" in the above?  I would guess the championship bracket gradually declines and would be curious if the consolation does as well.

 

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Unfortunately, no. I had to go through all of the brackets by hand. I started out just looking at round 1, but then went back to add the placement matches as it seemed like there were a lot of forfeits there (there were). Then it was like "oh, well, might as well do the rest". But by then I got a little lazy and did the rest as a group rather than by round.

I will say that forfeits in the placement matches might need to be addressed. It seems like a lot of points are gained there. And if I recall correctly I think there was one or two situations where it affected the team race at 2nd through 4th, but not for first.

Wouldn't it be easier to just not score the tournament and instead have a dual team championship?   

[TylerDurden]

RE: pushout points.

I have my doubts about this. If a guy grabs a collar tie, blocks and drives his opponent out of bounds...did he really do anything? This strategy is already employed by many wrestlers to generate a stall call. I'd argue the guy pushing their opponent out is stalling, i.e., not wrestling. Think about how this works in freestyle...a guy is close to the edge and his opponent pushes him and gets a point for...pushing...unless he's grounded. I don't like it in FS either. I think it was a well-intended rule to keep action going, but in its application, it is silly. 

There are some legitimate times where a guy is backing straight out to avoid a certain position, double underhooks, for instance. Those should be called stalling. 

I seems that the application of the rule makes it so that the official must call a stall for "backing" off the mat, even if they were pushed off or it's clear the wrestler being pushed is making an attempt to stay in the circle. 

Perhaps this is a rule that needs clarification and application amendments, not a rewrite to reward the behavior that seems to go against the spirit of the rule. 

If a guy is actually avoiding wrestling, call stalling. 

 

[nhs67]

Schultzy is going to win so many matches 15 pushouts to zero.

[LJB]

how i do love the same tired arguments every year...

 

[nhs67]

On the other end, Starocci is going to lose so many matches by being stalled out on top.

[LJB]

Just now, nhs67 said:

Schultzy is going to win so many matches 15 pushouts to zero.

interestingly enough, that is not what happens in his international matches...