fishbane

The Carr-O'Toole match from tonight got me thinking about how often two individuals with NCAA titles meet. It is somewhat unusual and even more unusual for it feature wrestlers as exceptional as these two. Through nearly 7 seasons of competition they had lost a combined 3 matches going into the bout. It's pretty crazy. Below I submit below a partial list of meetings between NCAA champions 1972-present, but that is only really mostly complete 2000-present. The year noted is the year of the NCAA tournament for the season the match was wrestled. Ex. Starocci and Lewis wrestled in the All Star match in Nov 2022. This match took place in the 2022-2023 season and is noted as 2023 in the list below. 1972 Dziedzic-Adams All Star 1977 Jackson-Belenburg NCAAs 1980 Lewis-Burley Dual 1980 Lewis-Burley All Star 1980 Lewis-Burley NCAAs 1981 Lewis-Burley Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Midlands 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz Dual 1982 Ed Banach- Mark Schultz NCAAs 1992 Prescott-Terry Brands Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica Dual 1995 Branch-Mollica All Star 1995 Branch-Mollica NCAAs 1996 Branch-Mollica Las Vegas 1996 Branch-Mollica Dual 1997 Bono-McIlravy Dual? 1997 Bono-McIlravy Midlands 1997 Bono-McIlravy NCAAs 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Dual 1999 Fullhart-Hartung Big Tens 1999 Fullhart-Hartung NCAAs 2004 Mocco-Rowlands NCAAs 2004 Lee-Thompson Dual 2004 Lee-Thompson NCAAs 2006 Letters- Hendricks Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo Dual 2009 Herbert-Pucillo NCAAs 2010 Escobedo-Nickerson NCAAs 2011 Howe-Burroughs Midlands 2013 Ruth-Bosak Scuffle 2013 Ruth-Bosak NCAAs 2013 Dake-Taylor All Star Dake 100-4, Taylor 70-1, Combined 170-5 2013 Dake-Taylor Scuffle 2013 Dake-Taylor NCAAs 2013 Wright-Kilgore NCAAs 2014 Stieber-Maple All Star 2014 Perry-Howe Dual 2014 Perry-Howe Big Tens 2014 Perry Howe NCAAs 2016 Snyder-Gwiazdowski NCAAs Snyder 40-4, Gwiazdowski 139-11 2017 Martin-Dean All Star 2017 Martin-Dean Dual 2018 Nickal-Martin Dual Nickal 79-3, Martin 87-15, Combined 166-18 2018 Nickal-Martin Big Tens Nickal 84-3, Martin 92-16, Combined 176-19 2018 Nickal-Martin NCAAs Nickal 89-3, Martin 96-17, Combined 185-20 2018 Joseph-IMar Big Tens Joseph 42-5, Imar 111-2, Combined 153-7 2018 Joseph-IMar NCAAs Joseph 46-6. Imar 116-2, Combined 162-8 2019 Hall-Valencia Dual Hall 70-4, Valencia 79-1, Combined 149-5 2019 Hall-Valencia NCAAs Hall 93-4, Valencia 100-3, Combined 193-7 2022 Starocci-Lewis NCAAs Sartocci 36-2 Lewis 72-5, Combined 108-7 2023 Starocci-Lewis All Star Starocci 38-2, Lewis 75-6, Combined 113-8 2023 Carr-O'Toole Dual Carr 84-2, O'Toole 56-1, Combined 140-3

Carr is 84-2 for his career and O'Toole is 56-1, combined 140-3 (0.979) with one title a piece. Dake and Taylor: Taylor was 70-1 with one title and Dake 100-4 with three titles at their first meeting (All Star). Combined 170-5 (.971).

Mike Van Arsdale 109-43-2 - Most losses (tied) Most losses and ties Jeff Walter 98-43 - Most losses (tied) *some sources have 44 Ls Kirk Trost 136-43 Mark Ellis 91-39 Barry Weldon 104-37 Zach Roberson 106-35 Mark Reiland 105-34-3 Ernest Benion 113-34 Chris Bono 128-34 Michael Macchiavello 69-33 Carl Perry 87-33 Ben Cherrington 93-32 Dean Morrison 106-32-3 Daryl Weber 104-32 Jake Jaggers 105-32 - Most losses by a 2x champ & lowest winning % 2x champ Aaron Holker 102-31 Rob Rohn 106-31 Jude Skove 131-31-3 Robbie Waller 101-30 Jason Kelber 123-30 Steve Bosak 131-30 Glen Pritzlaff 106-29 Dustin Fox 109-29 Eric Siebert 112-29 Jordan Leen 119-29 Frank Molinaro 121-29 Luke Becker 126-29 Keith Stearns 72-28-3 David Lee 145-28-8 Scott Collins 119-28-3 J.J. MNcGrew 88-28 Steve Marianetti 119-28 Jim Jordan 156-28-1 - 2x champ Byron Tucker 109-27 Kendall Cross 111-27-3 Mark Munoz 111-27 Chris Barnes 119-27 - 2x Champ Mitch Clark 119-27 Jarrod King 125-27 Pete Bush 96-27-1 Tony Purler 99-26-1 Tony Purler 99-26 John Hughes 121-26-2 Dwight Gardner 122-26 John Lockhart 123-26 Brad Vering 124-26 Gary Barton 46-25-1 - Lowest Winning % champ Paul Keysaw 59-25-2 Jim Scherr 109-25-4 Teague Moore 113-25 Marty Kistler 118-25 - 2x Champ Matt Gentry 138-25 Howard Harris 169-25

I don't know that I have ever seen it. I seem to remember personally being called for locked hands in a similar situation when the person managed to avoid NF points/get off their back. It might happen if it is a fast transition, but that's more of the it's legal if the ref doesn't see it than being outright legal.

You are right with the exception of the arm encircled part. That doesn't matter. A trapped arm gut wrench is illegal in NCAA wrestling. This would involve locking hands around the defensive wrestlers torso with an arm encircled. I believe this is what happened. The referees were looking at other things. One was probably looking for the NF points and the other one watching the clock to let the guy looking at the NF know when time was out. I don't think the referees could have changed this on their own or even from an Iowa challenge. They could only award points for locked hands if they thought there may have been locked hands or Michigan challenged it. I did not know this. I found this in the 2022-2023 case book So I think the initial blame for missing the call should go to the referees, but they should not be blamed for not correcting it during the review. They likely completely missed it and if it was an officials review were just checking for NF points or the original control/takedown. If it was an Iowa challenge then they likely were only challenging NF points and the locked hands could not be corrected. Blame for not fixing it falls to Michigan assuming they had an unused challenge.

The 0.75 nelson would never be a technical violation/locking hands. It is considered a distinct hold from the full nelson illegal hold and illegal headlock. It is specifically an example of a legal hold cited in the rule book. The near fall criteria rule 4.5 specifies the near fall criteria thusly "Near Fall Criteria A near fall is a position in which the offensive wrestler has the opponent in a controlled pinning situation in which any one of the following three criteria are met: a. The defensive wrestler is held in a high bridge or on both elbows; b. Any part of one shoulder or scapula, or the head is touching the mat and the other shoulder or scapula is held at an angle of 45 degrees or less to the mat; or c. Any part of both shoulders or both scapulae are held within four inches of the mat. In any pinning situation, a near fall may occur if any part of either wrestler remains in bounds."

Wow. The only Maryland wrestler or coach to experience two Big Ten wins. 8th year senior.

I don't see uncovered area. I also don't see the precursor to near fall that you mentioned earlier. None of your earlier examples are really applicable as they don't involving locking hands around the entire torso/both legs so there would never be a locked hands call for those. Your later example of bear hug is applicable. If you bear hug someone from neutral where it's legal and take them straight to their back then you can keep the lock if they are in NF criteria otherwise you have reaction time to release the lock. You cannot bear hug or body lock from top and then work the guy over to NF. That's a locked hands call every time. From a TD or mat return it's a tricky play to keep the lock because it might help you hold them and get the fall/points, but if they squirm out you could give up a point. One somewhat related example to this discussion is the guillotine. This is the turning move with a leg in where the top wrestler grabs the defensive wrestlers far arm and puts it behind his back using it to turn him over. The offensive wrestler can lock his hands around the defensive wrestlers head once NF criteria is established a move that would otherwise be an illegal headlock. This would result in an illegal hold penalty and not a technical violation like we had been discussing, nevertheless there is no mention of near fall precursor or imminent possibility of near-fall in this rule. "Locked Hands — Guillotine. The offensive wrestler cannot lock hands around the head of the defensive wrestler when using the guillotine until the offensive wrestler meets a near-fall criterion." In practice there might be some margin. Where say you lock your hands before NF criteria in a way that is only legal in NF criteria (ex. bear hug or around the head w/guillotine) and turn the guy real fast. The referee might not notice or call it. Then again they might notice, stop action, and award a point. The neutral danger rule 4.2.3 doesn't add anything in the way of modifying locking hands from my reading.

I finally stopped being lazy and looked up the rule. Rule 5.8 "Interlocking Hands — Description. Wrestlers in the position of advantage may not interlock or overlap their hands, fingers or arms around their opponent’s body or both legs unless all of their opponent’s weight is supported entirely by the defensive wrestler's feet or the defensive wrestler’s pinning area is meeting a near-fall criterion. The opponent of a wrestler committing this technical violation shall receive one match point." I think every one can agree that with 9 seconds left after the TD was awarded that Big Tone had his hands interlocked around Parris's body Parris's weight was not entirely supported by his feet (standing position). The only remaining question is if Parris was in NF criteria. I suppose there can be differing opinions on that, but it would seem that the person with the best view, the referee, did not think Parris was in NF criteria because he did not award Big Tone any NF points. The only way for this to be possible would be if Parris was oscillating back and forth between NF and not NF criteria. NF for 1s, back >45 for 1s, back to NF for 1s ... until the end of the period. Still when NF criteria is broken to stop the NF clock it would be locking hands. It would seem that no NF and no locking hands is an impossible outcome. The ref has one out but it really isn't a very satisfying one - reaction time. 5.8 allows for reaction time in the call "Interlocking Hands — Reaction Time. Reaction time for interlocking hands exists in all areas except for the locked hands call down on the mat." Since this was locked hands maintained after a TD call the referee could allow for reaction time. Still 9 seconds of reaction time seems excessive. Typically we think of reaction time as less than a second, but in the rules there is a definition for reaction time in rule 2.2 "Reaction Time The amount of time a wrestler is provided by the referee to react to individual scoring or wrestling situations. Reaction time is provided in all situations except the hand-touch takedown and for locked hands calls down on the mat. Reaction time is determined by each individual referee and is described only as a period of time that is not instantaneous." So 9s of reaction time would be allowed within the rules if the referee determined it to be. I don't think that would be a reasonable determination. Locking hands around Parris's body in that situation definitely helped Big Tone keep him in a near- NF position. Since it was a neutral danger/scamble situation it seems likely that control could change at any time. One could argue that allowing Big Tone to lock his hands for 9 seconds in a position he was not allowed to cost Parris an opportunity at an escape or reversal before the end of the period.

I don't know that this is home cooking it just makes no sense. The ref awarded the takedown with 9 seconds left in the period and Big Tone kept his hands locked for the remainder of the period. I thought the only way that would be allowed without a locked hands call is if he had Parris in NF criteria, yet no NF was awarded.

They did win a dual, but just to clarify this is not their first ever win of a Big Ten in conference dual. They beat Michigan State their second year in the conference. This makes 2 wins in their history of big ten conference duals.

Here is the sequence

At the end of the 2nd period after Big Tone got that TD what was the call exactly? Was it that Parris was <90 long enough to trigger neutral danger and get Big Tone the TD, but after the TD award Parris never broke 45 for at least 2s to trigger a NF? If so why wasn't Big Tone called for locked hands? I thought you had to have your opponent in NF criteria to legally lock/keep your hands locked when in control. The refs looked at the replay and changed nothing. That may have been a Brands challenge or their own review it wasn't clear on the broadcast. Anyway they neither awarded NF or a point for the technical violation. How is that possible? Did they just miss the locked hands? Do I not understand the rule?

It would be nice if they released the voting results...

Mark Branch 13-9 Jake Rosholt 22-9 Jeff Jaggers 28-9 Jeff Walter 34-9 Ernest Benion 29-8 Robbie Waller 31-7 Aaron Holker 32-7 John Lockhard 32-7 Jim Gibbons 32-6-2 Stewart Carter 32-6-2

It is the most by a 3x champ, but not by that much. Nate Carr is 2nd with a a record of 122-17-1, followed by Mark Schultz with a 97-15. Neither of them were 4x AAs like Rosholt.

Yuge

Oldest is Charles Jones who won NCAAs in 1992 at 27 years old. I think military service inturrupted his education. The youngest is Pat Milkovich at 18.25 years. Not sure about AA

I'm not sure. I think rule is that you can wrestle up one weight from where you weigh in. So if you weigh in above 158, you could wrestle your weight, 167, and up one or 177. If that is the rule he would have to weight in above 177, which would have put him as a 190lber and he could wrestle one up or 275.

It's interesting, if you look at his record for the year he is 13-9 on wrestling stats. This includes 5 wins at NCAAs, so he should have been 8-9 going into NCAAs, which I think is correct. However, as you pointed out, if you add up the wins and losses from the individual matches he is 9-8. Wrestlingstats is not consistent with the record it reports. I think his record from Big 8s, where he finished 3rd, is correct, so the error must be in a regular season event. Looking at the Lock Haven tournament he went 2-1 and lost to an OSU teammate, Parker. This would be consistent with a 2nd or 3rd place finish, though it could also be that he defaulted out after losing in the championship bracket. Since Parker is also a OSU wrestler, wrestling stats has his record available. At the same tournament he went 4-2. I suspect the error is in that Lock Haven tournament. Parker, the teammate that beat him in the Lock Haven tournament, had a wild season. He met Branch in that tournament wrestling 167lbs and the week after wrestled in a dual against Oklahoma at 158. He then wrestled 5 straight duals at 177 before wrestled against PSU at 167. Then it was back to 177 for 3 more duals, before jumping up again to 190 against Iowa. He wrestled the final dual against OU at 190 and then bumped up again to 275 for Big 8s. There he went 1-2, finishing 4th, and qualifying for NCAAs where he went 0-1. For the year he was 8-14; 1-0 at 158, 4-3 at 167, 2-6 at 177, 0-2 at 190, and 1-3 at 275. The year before he wrestled at 158 apart from the 1st tournament of the year where he wrestled 167. In 1993, he was 21-6 at 158 as a starter and 3-2 in that one tournament at 167.

Mike Van Arsdale 109-43-2 Jeff Walter 98-43 Kirk Trost 136-43 Mark Ellis 91-39 Barry Weldon 104-37 Zach Roberson 106-35 Mark Reiland 105-34-3 Ernest Benion 113-34 Chris Bono 128-34 Michael Macchiavello 69-33 Carl Perry 87-33 Ben Cherrington 93-32 Dean Morrison 106-32-3 Daryl Weber 104-32 Jake Jaggers 105-32 Aaron Holker 102-31 Rob Rohn 106-31 Jude Skove 131-31-3 Jason Kelber 123-30 Steve Bosak 131-30 Glen Pritzlaff 106-29 Dustin Fox 109-29 Eric Siebert 112-29 Jordan Leen 119-29 Frank Molinaro 121-29 Luke Becker 126-29 Keith Stearns 72-28-3 David Lee 145-28-8 Scott Collins 119-28-3 J.J. MNcGrew 88-28 Steve Marianetti 119-28 Jim Jordan 156-28-1 Byron Tucker 109-27 Kendall Cross 111-27-3 Mark Munoz 111-27 Chris Barnes 119-27 Mitch Clark 119-27 Jarrod King 125-27 Pete Bush 96-27-1 Tony Purler 99-26-1 Tony Purler 99-26 John Hughes 121-26-2 Dwight Gardner 122-26 John Lockhart 123-26 Brad Vering 124-26 Gary Barton 46-25-1 Paul Keysaw 59-25-2 Jim Scherr 109-25-4 Teague Moore 113-25 Marty Kistler 118-25 Matt Gentry 138-25 Howard Harris 169-25 Additions/Corrections in bold. Barton probably has the lowest career winning percentage of an NCAA champ. Van Arsdale has the most career losses tied with Walter and Trost, but Van Arsdale had two ties as well setting himself apart. For losses in a single title winning season the most is 9 with Branch, Jaggers, and Walter tied. Branch easily has the lowest winning % for a single season.

Single season NCAA championship year. It starts to become common for <+6 losses Mark Branch 13-9 Jeff Jaggers 28-9 Jeff Walter 34-9 Ernest Benion 29-8 Robbie Waller 31-7 Aaron Holker 32-7 John Lockhard 32-7 Jim Gibbons 32-6-2 Stewart Carter 32-6-2

Jeff Walter 98-43 Mike Van Arsedale 109-43 Kirk Trost 136-43 Mark Ellis 91-39 Barry Weldon 104-37 Zach Roberson 106-35 Mark Reiland 105-34-3 Ernest Benion 113-34 Chris Bono 128-34 Michael Macchiavello 69-33 Carl Perry 87-33 Dean Morrison 106-32-3 Daryl Weber 104-32 Jake Jaggers 105-32 Aaron Holker 102-31 Rob Rohn 106-31 Jude Skove 131-31-3 Jason Kelber 123-30 Steve Bosak 131-30 Glen Pritzlaff 106-29 Dustin Fox 109-29 Eric Siebert 112-29 Jordan Leen 119-29 Frank Molinaro 121-29 Luke Becker 126-29 Keith Stearns 72-28-3 David Lee 145-28-8 Scott Collins 119-28-3 J.J. MNcGrew 88-28 Steve Marianetti 119-28 Jim Jordan 156-28-1 Byron Tucker 109-27 Kendall Cross 111-27-3 Mark Munoz 111-27 Chris Barnes 119-27 Mitch Clark 119-27 Jarrod King 125-27 Pete Bush 96-27-1 Tony Purler 99-26-1 Tony Purler 99-26 John Hughes 121-26-2 Dwight Gardner 122-26 John Lockhart 123-26 Brad Vering 124-26 Paul Keysaw 59-25-2 Jim Scherr 109-25-4 Teague Moore 113-25 Marty Kistler 118-25 Matt Gentry 138-25 Howard Harris 169-25

Maybe not in absolute number, but a better chance with winning % 13-9. He was <.500 going into NCAAs. The next year he was 22-7 as a finalist.

Not the best way to put it. The path Schultz had to win states was likely more unique than a NCAA/multiple NCAA champ that not winning states/national preps. Or are you just referring to State being singular and States being plural? Can't be on the fence with that?